hassanchop
Grimlock
Who are you to doubt Belldandy?
Posts: 14,774
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Post by hassanchop on Oct 26, 2018 20:11:12 GMT -5
What about the people in India, how do they feel? What is this Apu controversy anyways? It's the first I am hearing about it.
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Post by "Cane Dewey" Johnson on Oct 26, 2018 20:19:55 GMT -5
Perhaps the Simpsons should be more authentic and inclusive in terms of its voice casting? Bart should be played by an actual young boy, Mr. Burns by an actual old man, Smithers by an actual gay man, Dr. Hibbert by an actual black man, etc.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2018 20:20:16 GMT -5
If we concede the argument that Apu is, in fact, a stereotype and racist. Then fine, that's kind of the point of the character. The whole Simpsons universe is an over the top caricature of American culture. Whether it's Homer the beer drinking lazy American, The evil capitalist Mr. Burns, the closet homosexual Smithers, The cop that literally looks like a pig, Grounds Keeper Willie, Bumble Bee Man etc.
The punchline of Apu isn't "LOL Indians", it's "LOL Americas dumb perception of Indians". There's a difference.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Oct 26, 2018 21:13:49 GMT -5
People have a tendency to go "I LIKE THING" and don't realise that something can still be problematic even when it's something that you like. I grew up with friends of Indian descent and they copped so much Apu related shit. People have a tendency to go “I HATE THIS THING” and don’t realize the thing doesn’t have to change to suit their tastes. When it's something that causes people harm and hurt just because of where they're from or what skin color they have, you better believe it damn well does have to change.
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
Posts: 27,955
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Post by chazraps on Oct 26, 2018 21:16:44 GMT -5
If we concede the argument that Apu is, in fact, a stereotype and racist. Then fine, that's kind of the point of the character. The whole Simpsons universe is an over the top caricature of American culture. Whether it's Homer the beer drinking lazy American, The evil capitalist Mr. Burns, the closet homosexual Smithers, The cop that literally looks like a pig, Grounds Keeper Willie, Bumble Bee Man etc. The punchline of Apu isn't "LOL Indians", it's "LOL Americas dumb perception of Indians". There's a difference. No, huge difference here is that Apu is a series of stereotypes about a race written by people who aren't of that race and voiced by someone who isn't of that race. There's no satire about it, the punchline is "LOL Indians."
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riseofsetian1981
King Koopa
"I met him fifteen years ago. I was told there was nothing left."
Posts: 10,323
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Post by riseofsetian1981 on Oct 26, 2018 21:16:58 GMT -5
People have a tendency to go “I HATE THIS THING” and don’t realize the thing doesn’t have to change to suit their tastes. When it's something that causes people harm and hurt just because of where they're from or what skin color they have, you better believe it damn well does have to change. In what way though? The character of Apu has been around for years and has never been an issue until now. Is it really causing harm to people? Honest question.
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
Posts: 27,955
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Post by chazraps on Oct 26, 2018 21:18:05 GMT -5
When it's something that causes people harm and hurt just because of where they're from or what skin color they have, you better believe it damn well does have to change. In what way though? The character of Apu has been around for years and has never been an issue until now. Is it really causing harm to people? Honest question. Yes, and it's caused harm and been an issue for years. Have you seen the documentary?
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chrom
Backup Wench
Master of the rare undecuple post
Posts: 84,578
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Post by chrom on Oct 26, 2018 21:20:10 GMT -5
You don't ever see anyone bitching about the stereotypes on Family Guy, which is arguably ten times worse than anything done on The Simpsons
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2018 21:24:09 GMT -5
When it's something that causes people harm and hurt just because of where they're from or what skin color they have, you better believe it damn well does have to change. In what way though? The character of Apu has been around for years and has never been an issue until now. Is it really causing harm to people? Honest question. It HAS been an issue, that's the whole point. Just because only of late have people gotten the chance to broadcast their issues with it doesn't mean those issues only sprung into existence recently.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Oct 26, 2018 21:54:05 GMT -5
You don't ever see anyone bitching about the stereotypes on Family Guy, which is arguably ten times worse than anything done on The Simpsons Actually you do, but MacFarlane has the social capital to get away with it more and also just cares less what people think if Fox don't pressure him.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2018 21:56:16 GMT -5
You don't ever see anyone bitching about the stereotypes on Family Guy, which is arguably ten times worse than anything done on The Simpsons Actually you do, but MacFarlane has the social capital to get away with it more and also just cares less what people think if Fox don't pressure him. Plus people just take it less seriously anyway since Family Guy a lot of the time is clearly just looking to offend you. You don't exactly expect a cartoon to be reasonable with depictions of minorities when they have zero qualms with showing you a live action photo of herpes.
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Post by Alyce: Old Media Enthusiast on Oct 26, 2018 22:06:33 GMT -5
The thing is, Kondabolu doesn't want Apu removed. That was never his intent. He would rather it be handled better than either sweeping it under the rug or just removing Apu and making things more of a mess.
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Post by Toilet Paper Roll on Oct 26, 2018 22:08:27 GMT -5
Every ancillary character on the SImpsons is an over the top Stereotype. The Italians they portray on the show are Pizza makers and Mafia guys... oh and that one episode where the guy was an organ grinder with a monkey.
Every local convenience store in my area with almost no exceptions has someone Indian or Pakistani as the proprietor, they all have accents. Im sure they're all wonderful people. It's not as if it doesn't exist. If your issue is the person doing an impersonation has the wrong skin color well then lets just end all impressions people do because more often than not the person doing the accent is doing one of somebody of a different culture, race or ethnicity... otherwise it wouldn't be an impression it'd be... them.
I'm not going to tell people what they're allowed to be offended by. If you're hurt by the Apu character to the point it becomes and a driving issue in your life I either envy that it's a large issue to you, or pity you that something so minute causes you pain.
As a grandson of Scottish immigrant grandparents I could choose to be offended by Groundskeeper Willie whos blatantly boasted every Scottish stereotype short of banging a sheep. But maybe somebody somewhere is hurt by it, thus his character should be culled as well.
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Post by HMARK Center on Oct 26, 2018 22:13:30 GMT -5
People have a tendency to go "I LIKE THING" and don't realise that something can still be problematic even when it's something that you like. I grew up with friends of Indian descent and they copped so much Apu related shit. People have a tendency to go “I HATE THIS THING” and don’t realize the thing doesn’t have to change to suit their tastes. Then it's a good thing the guy making the statement about this issue made a nuanced documentary about it instead of simply stamping his feet and saying "I hate this thing." I think a lot of us have to make peace with the fact that we live in the age of democratized digital speech; as recently as the 80s and even through the early 00s it was varying levels of difficult for some smaller, more marginalized communities to make their voices heard to the general public in whatever society they happened to live in, and thus it was difficult for them to express widely when something taken for granted in that general public might have been causing them undue pain or even just minor inconveniences. With the rise of social media and increased access to instant communication platforms on which no single community is automatically prioritized over others, marginalized communities have had greater opportunities to amplify their voices with things as simply as a hashtag or trending term; suddenly, and particularly in diverse societies, it became much easier for those previously ignored opinions to get out into the digital public square. Putting the focus on US culture - East Asian-Americans didn't wake up yesterday and decide "Y'know what? NOW I'm sick of Western studios adapting our cultures' TV shows and films and recasting them with white actors." African-Americans didn't only perk up last week over issues of racist dog-whistling by public figures or over abuses of police power. Gender-fluid Americans didn't only burst onto the scene in the past year and begin asking to be addressed by non-binary pronouns. And Indian-Americans didn't begin voicing their displeasure over a character like Apu when the documentary about that issue came out. In each and every one of those cases those frustrations have existed for years, and in many cases for decades. The only difference now is that those previously unheard communities now have more means by which to overcome the obstacles that had previously only made them seem silent to the general population. At the end of the day, most of the people asking for these things aren't making undue demands or forcing unbearable burdens on anyone; frankly, in most cases even the loudest protestations are people simply demanding to be heard, and in many of them it's simply people looking to begin a dialogue over issues that had been previously, again, taken for granted. Mickey Rooney's performance in Breakfast at Tiffany's didn't just become racist because "some time has past and now it's racist" - it always was racist, but after some time Asian-Americans found an outlet where they could voice their displeasure with the depiction and share the harm it and performances like it might have caused them during their lives. Thus, a dialogue began, and a step toward better cultural understanding was taken. I'm not equating Apu with that film, by the way; again, I think Apu's largely been a pretty well-handled character who was allowed to evolve over the years, and I don't believe that the Simpsons creative teams went into writing him with malicious intent or overtly harmful ignorance; if anything, the attempts to evolve the character showed their intentions were likely even positive in nature. However, intentions only count for so much, and the community directly impacted by the actual depiction, albeit just a portion of it, was finally heard on the matter. That's life; new voices are heard, new dialogues are begun, and change occurs, sometimes change that we're not all eager for or excited about, but often changes that are at least the product of a conversation that might be well overdue. EDIT: Also, I'm sorry, but within American culture, which is what the Simpsons is born out of, there's no comparing the depictions of most European-American groups and those non-white groups. Fat Tony and Groundskeeper Willie are stereotypes, yes, but those stereotypes have an absolutely minute impact on Italian-American and Scottish-American communities given the larger presence of non-stereotypical Italian and Scottish representation in American media, business, politics, and broader culture, something that's not nearly as afforded yet to communities such as Indian-Americans.
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Post by Cyno on Oct 26, 2018 22:18:26 GMT -5
The sincerity of this statement is made null by the really condescending statements that immediately follow afterwards.
Do you actually know any people who are from the South Asian countries or descended from people who are? Talk to them sometime about Apu and see what they have to say. If they aren't offended by him or the stereotypes he represents, then that's great! But if they have been negatively affected by the character, I hope you show more empathy for their issues than you did here.
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Post by Cyno on Oct 26, 2018 22:28:45 GMT -5
It's also worth noting that unlike the other characters, Fat Tony's voice actor, Joe Mantegna, is actually an Italian-American himself.
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Post by Toilet Paper Roll on Oct 26, 2018 22:29:26 GMT -5
The sincerity of this statement is made null by the really condescending statements that immediately follow afterwards. Do you actually know any people who are from the South Asian countries or descended from people who are? Talk to them sometime about Apu and see what they have to say. If they aren't offended by him or the stereotypes he represents, then that's great! But if they have been negatively affected by the character, I hope you show more empathy for their issues than you did here. I know many people from south Asian countries. Before I went off to college I went to a junior college in a city that's predominantly made up of immigrants from Asian countries (Quincy, MA look it up) I never recalled hearing any of the MANY Asian people I went to school with speak with shame of their parents, or other family members working at a convenience store. In fact I'd assume they'd be proud that within one generation of coming to a country you're unfamiliar with, sparingly speaking the language that you'd have children in higher education, Those I've been fortunate enough to know are probably too busy trying to become doctors and engineers than worrying about a character that portrays a kinda, sorta but not really negative stereotype about them?
Or maybe they are all offended by it, and never told me... I don't recall it ever being brought up. But to do so I guess I'd have to assume that being a new immigrant to this country and working in a convenience store is something to be ashamed of, which I don't think it is.
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Post by Toilet Paper Roll on Oct 26, 2018 22:30:40 GMT -5
It's also worth noting that unlike the other characters, Fat Tony's voice actor, Joe Mantegna, is actually an Italian-American himself.
Dan Castellenetta does Groundskeeper Willie, and he isn't Scottish, so lets 86 him too.
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Post by HMARK Center on Oct 26, 2018 22:36:45 GMT -5
Better lose Grandpa, since he's a collection of elderly stereotypes. Willie (from North Kilt Town) too. Might as well lose Barney before the recovering alcoholics get upset. Smithers and his Malibu Stacy collection gotta go, as well as Fat Tony, who is Italian so therefore in the mafia. People in this thread keep pointing out why these examples really don't mesh up very well; please read them, first, and/or address them rather than just repeating it all again.
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Oct 26, 2018 22:40:27 GMT -5
People have a tendency to go “I HATE THIS THING” and don’t realize the thing doesn’t have to change to suit their tastes. Then it's a good thing the guy making the statement about this issue made a nuanced documentary about it instead of simply stamping his feet and saying "I hate this thing." I think a lot of us have to make peace with the fact that we live in the age of democratized digital speech; as recently as the 80s and even through the early 00s it was varying levels of difficult for some smaller, more marginalized communities to make their voices heard to the general public in whatever society they happened to live in, and thus it was difficult for them to express widely when something taken for granted in that general public might have been causing them undue pain or even just minor inconveniences. With the rise of social media and increased access to instant communication platforms on which no single community is automatically prioritized over others, marginalized communities have had greater opportunities to amplify their voices with things as simply as a hashtag or trending term; suddenly, and particularly in diverse societies, it became much easier for those previously ignored opinions to get out into the digital public square. Putting the focus on US culture - East Asian-Americans didn't wake up yesterday and decide "Y'know what? NOW I'm sick of Western studios adapting our cultures' TV shows and films and recasting them with white actors." African-Americans didn't only perk up last week over issues of racist dog-whistling by public figures or over abuses of police power. Gender-fluid Americans didn't only burst onto the scene in the past year and begin asking to be addressed by non-binary pronouns. And Indian-Americans didn't begin voicing their displeasure over a character like Apu when the documentary about that issue came out. In each and every one of those cases those frustrations have existed for years, and in many cases for decades. The only difference now is that those previously unheard communities now have more means by which to overcome the obstacles that had previously only made them seem silent to the general population. At the end of the day, most of the people asking for these things aren't making undue demands or forcing unbearable burdens on anyone; frankly, in most cases even the loudest protestations are people simply demanding to be heard, and in many of them it's simply people looking to begin a dialogue over issues that had been previously, again, taken for granted. Mickey Rooney's performance in Breakfast at Tiffany's didn't just become racist because "some time has past and now it's racist" - it always was racist, but after some time Asian-Americans found an outlet where they could voice their displeasure with the depiction and share the harm it and performances like it might have caused them during their lives. Thus, a dialogue began, and a step toward better cultural understanding was taken. I'm not equating Apu with that film, by the way; again, I think Apu's largely been a pretty well-handled character who was allowed to evolve over the years, and I don't believe that the Simpsons creative teams went into writing him with malicious intent or overtly harmful ignorance; if anything, the attempts to evolve the character showed their intentions were likely even positive in nature. However, intentions only count for so much, and the community directly impacted by the actual depiction, albeit just a portion of it, was finally heard on the matter. That's life; new voices are heard, new dialogues are begun, and change occurs, sometimes change that we're not all eager for or excited about, but often changes that are at least the product of a conversation that might be well overdue. EDIT: Also, I'm sorry, but within American culture, which is what the Simpsons is born out of, there's no comparing the depictions of most European-American groups and those non-white groups. Fat Tony and Groundskeeper Willie are stereotypes, yes, but those stereotypes have an absolutely minute impact on Italian-American and Scottish-American communities given the larger presence of non-stereotypical Italian and Scottish representation in American media, business, politics, and broader culture, something that's not nearly as afforded yet to communities such as Indian-Americans. As someone who has watched the Simpsons from the first time they were on the Tracy Ullman show, I can't tell you how much I agree with this. I don't know if people are just being purposely dense, or really are so attached to a character from a show that lost it's relevancy 10 years ago at the earliest, that they are willing to ignore the harm that the character and the issues around him have caused for an entire generation of people. I grew up in the 80s, I remember Fisher Stevens doing an Indian impersonation for two Short Circuit movies. And we can go more recent, in 2012, Ashton Kutcher was doing the same act in a TV commercial. Just because it may not be an issue for you doesn't mean it's not an issue.
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