Fade
Patti Mayonnaise
Posts: 38,299
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Post by Fade on Nov 5, 2018 22:06:28 GMT -5
This is one of those terms that just bypassed me in culture while everyone else had decided it was sexist/examples of it.
Obviously I've read it about Rey..and it's a little hard to un-see after you've read some stuff. But it still kinda confuses me. Like, is Harry Potter a "Gary stu"?
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Post by Mister Pigwell on Nov 5, 2018 22:17:04 GMT -5
I'll say most of the examples in this thread are entirely fair. It's when I see it applied to female after female on message boards for whatever movie/comic/whatever character as a way of just going "f*** this girl I don't like her doing better than a male character I like" I'm basing my earlier post on. This is one of those terms that just bypassed me in culture while everyone else had decided it was sexist/examples of it. Obviously I've read it about Rey..and it's a little hard to un-see after you've read some stuff. But it still kinda confuses me. Like, is Harry Potter a "Gary stu"? Harry was never particularly good at anything besides lke, two spells though. He suffers far more from "destined one" status.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2018 22:18:58 GMT -5
This is one of those terms that just bypassed me in culture while everyone else had decided it was sexist/examples of it. Obviously I've read it about Rey..and it's a little hard to un-see after you've read some stuff. But it still kinda confuses me. Like, is Harry Potter a "Gary stu"? He does possess a few qualities, but only a few. He would have to do the fusion dance with Hermoine who also possesses a couple of sue traits to combine their individual qualities to make up something more Sue-like.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2018 22:23:04 GMT -5
I'll say most of the examples in this thread are entirely fair. It's when i see it applied to female after female on message boards for whatever movie/comic/whatever character as a way of just going "f*** this girl I don't like her doing better than a male character I like" I'm basing my earlier post on. This is one of those terms that just bypassed me in culture while everyone else had decided it was sexist/examples of it. Obviously I've read it about Rey..and it's a little hard to un-see after you've read some stuff. But it still kinda confuses me. Like, is Harry Potter a "Gary stu"? Harry was never particularly good at anything besides lke, two spells though. He suffers far more from "destined one" status. Like I said, there are very few true Sues out there in modern media. Although I will say female characters possessing Mary Sue traits are more common. One of the major reasons for that is that many of the qualities that make up Sues are very prevalent tropes in Young Adult literature which is massively geared toward female readership, which in turn leads to the works having more female protagonists. Of popular works in recent years Divergent is the worst offender in this regard.
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Post by Confused Mark Wahlberg on Nov 5, 2018 23:49:42 GMT -5
Wait, Batman has several PhDs? When did he have time to do that?
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Post by Ryback on a Pole! on Nov 6, 2018 0:05:15 GMT -5
I'll say most of the examples in this thread are entirely fair. It's when i see it applied to female after female on message boards for whatever movie/comic/whatever character as a way of just going "f*** this girl I don't like her doing better than a male character I like" I'm basing my earlier post on. Harry was never particularly good at anything besides lke, two spells though. He suffers far more from "destined one" status. Like I said, there are very few true Sues out there in modern media. Although I will say female characters possessing Mary Sue traits are more common. One of the major reasons for that is that many of the qualities that make up Sues are very prevalent tropes in Young Adult literature which is massively geared toward female readership, which in turn leads to the works having more female protagonists. Of popular works in recent years Divergent is the worst offender in this regard. I also think a part of it is hack writers (rightly) seeing a need for strong female characters but forgetting to develop them beyond being good at stuff. The female elf from The Hobbit trilogy immediately jumps out.
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Kyn
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,623
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Post by Kyn on Nov 6, 2018 1:08:42 GMT -5
This is one of those terms that just bypassed me in culture while everyone else had decided it was sexist/examples of it. Obviously I've read it about Rey..and it's a little hard to un-see after you've read some stuff. But it still kinda confuses me. Like, is Harry Potter a "Gary stu"? Harry was never particularly good at anything besides lke, two spells though. He suffers far more from "destined one" status. If Harry hadn't known Expelliarmus, the series would have been a lot shorter, and probably ended with 'and then Harry died'.
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Post by Cyno on Nov 6, 2018 1:33:12 GMT -5
The term's been tainted by sexists, lazy critics, and inconsistent and varying definitions where it loses any meaning. Whenever I hear someone claim a character is a Mary Sue or Gary Stu, I don't tend to think much of their opinions on fictional characters.
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Post by "Cane Dewey" Johnson on Nov 6, 2018 2:32:05 GMT -5
Wait, Batman has several PhDs? When did he have time to do that? I like to imagine Bruce Wayne as an underpaid, overworked contract instructor during his PhD years as he rushes to finish his dissertation so he can resume his ninja training.
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ayumidah
Wade Wilson
Don't bother pretending I seem fine, I like that I'm a mess
Posts: 28,024
Member is Online
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Post by ayumidah on Nov 6, 2018 2:45:09 GMT -5
I don't usually use it for media at all, probably because when I was introduced to the term, I only ever heard it about characters in (generally poorly written) fan fic. Back when I first started writing, getting a review claiming that you were writing a character that was a Mary Sue was pretty much the worst thing ever, haha.
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Post by Wolf Hawkfield no1 NZ poster on Nov 6, 2018 2:51:48 GMT -5
Pretty much any character played by Steven Seagal.
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Post by HMARK Center on Nov 6, 2018 5:26:15 GMT -5
The term's been tainted by sexists, lazy critics, and inconsistent and varying definitions where it loses any meaning. Whenever I hear someone claim a character is a Mary Sue or Gary Stu, I don't tend to think much of their opinions on fictional characters. Right: no one here's saying the term was invented with that thought in mind, but unfortunately the well has been poisoned over the years by those seeking to use it that way, whether knowingly or subconsciously.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Nov 6, 2018 5:34:56 GMT -5
Batman, Tony Stark and Wolverine can't be Mary Sues simply because the vast majority of the material people would point at as making them so wasn't written by their creators. The whole thing about Mary Sues is they're idealised versions of their creators, added into a pre existing story to seduce, help or defeat a popular lead, while those three are popular leads in their own rights. Wesley in Star Trek TNG was a Mary Sue, boy genius, future of starfleet, treated like a son by the charismatic captain, heavily featured while Gene was running things despite a negative reception. He created him, added him, pushed him, and the character only improved once others took over the running of the show.
People do like to throw the term around to dismiss any character added by a female creator, or any creator they dislike for whatever reason to the point that it's lost all meaning. It's becoming nothing more than a convenient clubword, used to beat on a character when no other criticism seems to gain traction.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Nov 6, 2018 7:18:28 GMT -5
Batman, Tony Stark and Wolverine can't be Mary Sues simply because the vast majority of the material people would point at as making them so wasn't written by their creators. The whole thing about Mary Sues is they're idealised versions of their creators, added into a pre existing story to seduce, help or defeat a popular lead, while those three are popular leads in their own rights. Wesley in Star Trek TNG was a Mary Sue, boy genius, future of starfleet, treated like a son by the charismatic captain, heavily featured while Gene was running things despite a negative reception. He created him, added him, pushed him, and the character only improved once others took over the running of the show. And to further cement the fact? Gene's middle name was Wesley.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Nov 6, 2018 8:19:58 GMT -5
I can’t take the Mary Sue/Gary Stu terms seriously anymore because they’ve been abused by people who don’t truly understand what they’re supposed to represent. Not to mention I’ve come across a lot of genuinely captivating characters who have been unfairly tarred with the Sue/Stu brush.
Writers shouldn’t be afraid of making powerful characters. If they’re perfect or the narrative always supports them no matter what, then yeah, they’ll be boring. But there’s nothing wrong with having a character with a lot of skill and appeal. Sometimes writers and readers are attracted to escapism with the personalities they come up with.
Like, I don’t get angry when someone writes fan fiction with a super-talented OC that falls in love with one of the main characters. Lots of amateur writers have characters that are going to be a little Sue-ish, because they’re just starting to let their imagination run wild.
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Post by Clint Bobski on Nov 6, 2018 8:46:05 GMT -5
I had no idea what a "Mary Sue" was into the term as explained to me, but immediately several characters lept to mind:
Wesley Crusher Karen Page Jessica Cruz (Green Lantern comics) Amadeus Cho (Hulk comics)
I could write an essay on how Karen Page gets other people into bother, yet never gets held accountable, is always right, and calls people out for killing others when she's done it herself.
Wesley was more qualified and better skilled than the entire Enterprise crew, despite the fact that he couldnt even shave.
Jessica Cruz, despite the fact she suffers with chronic anxiety and agoraphobia, still manages to shoot across the galaxy, and only exists as Simon Baz' partner to save him when he gets in over his head.
Amadeus Cho is just a smartarse who is determined to make The Hulk "cool" after he becomes him. Everything he does is just a massive joke so he can prove The Hulk is better off with brains than brawn - and is never proved wrong.
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Post by Tenshigure on Nov 6, 2018 8:46:42 GMT -5
Wait, Batman has several PhDs? When did he have time to do that? I like to imagine Bruce Wayne as an underpaid, overworked contract instructor during his PhD years as he rushes to finish his dissertation so he can resume his ninja training. The League of Assassins has a hell of a reimbursement program.
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Paul
Vegeta
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Post by Paul on Nov 6, 2018 9:30:46 GMT -5
The main character in the My Immortal fanfic.
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agent817
Fry's dog Seymour
Doesn't Know Whose Ring It Is
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Post by agent817 on Nov 6, 2018 9:50:26 GMT -5
Pretty much any character played by Steven Seagal. I can't argue with you on that. It doesn't help that most of the fight scenes are one-sided, with him having the upper hand.
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H-Virus
Hank Scorpio
A Real Contagious Experience
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Post by H-Virus on Nov 6, 2018 12:09:38 GMT -5
Wait, Batman has several PhDs? When did he have time to do that? That’s my mistake, he doesn’t actually have PhDs, he’s just considered a genius in several different fields of study. I suppose I just haven’t seen it often enough to know, but now I’m curious about who some of the female main characters are that have been getting the Mary Sue label thrown on them?
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