|
Post by MC Blowfish on Nov 8, 2018 12:40:19 GMT -5
I had someone tell me that Rey was a Mary Sue and then later on tell me how cool Ripley was. You know the character who was able to kill a Queen Xenomorph, kill multiple Xenomorphs, and survive two encounters with them, while everyone else died. That's including a highly trained Marine unit which was slaughtered in minutes. I'm not saying Ripley is a Mary Sue, but if Rey is, then Ripley is too.
Also for the millionth time, Rey only beat Ren, because Snoke commanded him to take her alive. He had also been shot by a bowcaster and was fighting the pull of the light side.
|
|
|
Post by Cela on Nov 8, 2018 13:18:19 GMT -5
I had someone tell me that Rey was a Mary Sue and then later on tell me how cool Ripley was. You know the character who was able to kill a Queen Xenomorph, kill multiple Xenomorphs, and survive two encounters with them, while everyone else died. That's including a highly trained Marine unit which was slaughtered in minutes. I'm not saying Ripley is a Mary Sue, but if Rey is, then Ripley is too. Also for the millionth time, Rey only beat Ren, because Snoke commanded him to take her alive. He had also been shot by a bowcaster and was fighting the pull of the light side. Ripley had more than a little trouble fighting that Queen. And she fought using an improvised weapon she was proficient in, she didn't suddenly display proficiency in a makeshift tail whip technique. And in regards to the marines, she knew what the aliens were from the events of the first movie, the marines were completely blindsided.
|
|
Lupin the Third
Patti Mayonnaise
I'm sorry.....I love you. *boot to the head*--3rd most culpable in the jixing of NXT, D'oh!
Join the Dark Order....
Posts: 36,336
|
Post by Lupin the Third on Nov 8, 2018 13:46:43 GMT -5
If it's any consolation I only a few weeks ago realized, "To get to the other side," is a suicide joke and not just anti-humor. I seriously thought that the 'little piggy who went to market' went shopping and not that it was killed. So, is the piggy that had roast beef eating the piggy that went to market? DARKEST SKETCH! DARKEST SKETCH! DARKEST SKETCH!
|
|
Lupin the Third
Patti Mayonnaise
I'm sorry.....I love you. *boot to the head*--3rd most culpable in the jixing of NXT, D'oh!
Join the Dark Order....
Posts: 36,336
|
Post by Lupin the Third on Nov 8, 2018 13:53:50 GMT -5
A few years ago, I read online that many people considered Son Goku a Gary Stu, because every fight he was in (besides Cell), he would win. It made me think about Goku for a long time.
Then after TFS and Super started, I was like, "Goku isn't a Gary Stu. He's just really good at fighting. Otherwise, he's kind of an idiot about other things. Can barely drive a car, can't really farm that well unless Chi-Chi is riding his ass (PHRASING!!), and is a bit of a simpleton. But a simpleton with a positive attitude."
|
|
|
Post by Hit Girl on Nov 8, 2018 15:02:09 GMT -5
An idealised and implausibly flawed character so perfect it adversally affects the story that contains them and proves detrimental to all other characters who interact with them.
|
|
|
Post by MC Blowfish on Nov 8, 2018 15:03:33 GMT -5
I had someone tell me that Rey was a Mary Sue and then later on tell me how cool Ripley was. You know the character who was able to kill a Queen Xenomorph, kill multiple Xenomorphs, and survive two encounters with them, while everyone else died. That's including a highly trained Marine unit which was slaughtered in minutes. I'm not saying Ripley is a Mary Sue, but if Rey is, then Ripley is too. Also for the millionth time, Rey only beat Ren, because Snoke commanded him to take her alive. He had also been shot by a bowcaster and was fighting the pull of the light side. Ripley had more than a little trouble fighting that Queen. And she fought using an improvised weapon she was proficient in, she didn't suddenly display proficiency in a makeshift tail whip technique. And in regards to the marines, she knew what the aliens were from the events of the first movie, the marines were completely blindsided. Except she trained them and told them what to expect. She marched into the hive, had no problem killing several of them. Surviving with little to no military training while the others were wiped out fairly easily. She had little to no training on said makeshift weapon that multiple weapons fashioned together. Which I would think that it took time to master for the same marines that got wiped out. Yet she walked in without any issues.
|
|
agent817
Fry's dog Seymour
Doesn't Know Whose Ring It Is
Posts: 21,308
Member is Online
|
Post by agent817 on Nov 10, 2018 1:12:16 GMT -5
I just remembered something. For those who watched "Walker, Texas Ranger," would you consider Walker to be a Gary Stu? Think about it. There were episodes when you would have feds, Interpol agents, any sort of high level law enforcement or government agency enlisting the help of Walker. It seemed that Walker was able to take down some villains of some episodes without breaking a sweat, whereas the feds couldn't. I mean I enjoyed the show for all its cheese, but it felt like Walker was the ultimate badass who could take anybody down.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2018 10:24:24 GMT -5
Honestly, it's still a thing today. The problem is in today's society, people don't like using the term because if you apply it to a female, people get up in arms about how you're being sexist, but the truth is, badly written female leads still exist and we need to talk about, for the sake of equality, that we need to hold accountable bad writing regardless of the gender of the lead character.
Let's start with a character virtually everyone agrees is a Mary Sue: Alice from the Resident Evil movies. Here's an original character, created solely so the film director's wife could do something, dropped into a horror universe about experiments gone wrong and the extreme measures taken to cover them up. Instead of using the character as the avatar for the audience to interact with the established characters from the series, Alice becomes THE character of the franchise, pretty much becoming a total badass that can do just about anything, and whenever the film decides to take those abilities away in a paltry means of "leveling the playing field", the other characters now have to scramble to help Alice get those abilities back instead of showing off what they were capable of in the video games, meaning Alice IS the plot.
Now, let's move on to a character I wholeheartedly believe is a Mary Sue, but a good portion of the Internet loses their minds if you say it because you're mean or something; Rey. People go on and on and on and make all sorts of excuses defending her because this was around the time when the ability to debate whether or not a female could be overpowered right out of the gate was cast aside, but this is the same franchise that started with our central character starting out in a similar situation (on a desert world, doing absolutely nothing with his life, suddenly thrust into an intergalactic war), except he barely receives any training in the first movie, requires two attempts and a huge assist from Han Solo to blow up the Death Star, becomes disillusioned at the beginning of the second movie when he finally learns how dangerous the galaxy is, is told by Yoda to expect more shit, and gets annihilated by Darth Vader when they finally battle. It's not until the final movie of the original trilogy when Luke becomes a skilled Jedi Master. In this trilogy, Rey easily becomes Force sensitive, learns to use a lightsaber effectively, can pilot a spacecraft she never flown before in her life, and defeats an (albeit injured) powerful Sith without much hassle. This is the first movie with a somewhat competent, if not eccentric, writer in J.J. Abrams. Now, let's look at what happens when an incompetent writer like Rian Johnson takes hold... holy crap. Rey defeating Ren would not be much of an issue for me if it had taken place in the second movie instead of the first, honestly.
Another character I always referred to as a Gary Stu growing up was Sora from Kingdom Hearts, because everyone in the game would go on and on about how great he was. It was honestly refreshing to see a character in Dream Drop Distance to look at him and finally go "Get lost, you smiley-faced loser!"
|
|
|
Post by Vice honcho room temperature on Nov 10, 2018 10:50:56 GMT -5
I seriously thought that the 'little piggy who went to market' went shopping and not that it was killed. So, is the piggy that had roast beef eating the piggy that went to market? DARKEST SKETCH! DARKEST SKETCH! DARKEST SKETCH! Idk what beef you eat but its not full of pig
|
|
|
Post by Cyno on Nov 10, 2018 11:02:58 GMT -5
I had someone tell me that Rey was a Mary Sue and then later on tell me how cool Ripley was. You know the character who was able to kill a Queen Xenomorph, kill multiple Xenomorphs, and survive two encounters with them, while everyone else died. That's including a highly trained Marine unit which was slaughtered in minutes. I'm not saying Ripley is a Mary Sue, but if Rey is, then Ripley is too. Also for the millionth time, Rey only beat Ren, because Snoke commanded him to take her alive. He had also been shot by a bowcaster and was fighting the pull of the light side. They also had a planet exploding around them. I've rewatched that fight between Rey and Kylo Ren and there were more than a few times where I think Kylo Ren had the edge but the ground fell apart and let Rey get the upper hand. Even while badly injured and with all those other circumstances, I think Kylo Ren would've won that fight on stable ground. As it is, the planet was collapsing in on itself and that allowed Rey to get advantages she wouldn't have had otherwise, leading to a stalemate.
|
|
Lupin the Third
Patti Mayonnaise
I'm sorry.....I love you. *boot to the head*--3rd most culpable in the jixing of NXT, D'oh!
Join the Dark Order....
Posts: 36,336
|
Post by Lupin the Third on Nov 10, 2018 11:08:31 GMT -5
So, is the piggy that had roast beef eating the piggy that went to market? DARKEST SKETCH! DARKEST SKETCH! DARKEST SKETCH! Idk what beef you eat but its not full of pig Yeah, I know. I just wanted to be morbid for a sec.
|
|
|
Post by Gravedigger's Biscuits on Nov 10, 2018 11:37:05 GMT -5
Randy from That 70s Show was kind of this.
He was essentially an amalgamation of Eric and Kelso, to act as a replacement for both leaving the show, but he didn't have any of their negative qualities.
|
|
|
Post by Hit Girl on Nov 10, 2018 13:16:53 GMT -5
Wesley Crusher is a perfect example. He's a super genius, so he doesn't even need to attend four years of officer training at Starfleet Academy. He's a super genius so he doesn't even need to enlist and build his position and status on the ship through years of experience like Chief O'Brien. He knows so much that even department heads like Geordi and Data are impressed. Yet despite his genius, he's only the pilot. Why? Aren't there other people on the ship who can carry out this task? How about Ensign Gates? She seemed pretty qualified to take the helm 46 times yet remain an uninstrusive background character. memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/GatesHmm, I guess she wasn't a creator insert who allowed Eugene Wesley Roddenberry (a former pilot) to indulge his wish fufillment fantasies.
|
|
|
Post by Limity (BLM) on Nov 10, 2018 13:53:45 GMT -5
Ripley had more than a little trouble fighting that Queen. And she fought using an improvised weapon she was proficient in, she didn't suddenly display proficiency in a makeshift tail whip technique. And in regards to the marines, she knew what the aliens were from the events of the first movie, the marines were completely blindsided. Except she trained them and told them what to expect. She marched into the hive, had no problem killing several of them. Surviving with little to no military training while the others were wiped out fairly easily. She had little to no training on said makeshift weapon that multiple weapons fashioned together. Which I would think that it took time to master for the same marines that got wiped out. Yet she walked in without any issues. She didn't train them, and didn't march in with them in their first encounter. She did describe her experiences, and that the marines ignored that information, and were otherwise overconfident and using incorrect tactics is done purposefully, as an allegory for Vietnam. And the make shift weapon Cela refers to is the cargo loader thing at the very end, which the movie demonstrated she was proficient in. With the make shift weapon you are referring to, there's a well known deleted scene where Hicks teaches her to handle and fire the rifle.
|
|
|
Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Nov 10, 2018 15:44:49 GMT -5
I’m of the opinion that a character can hit multiple “Sue/Stu buttons” and still remain a well written character in general, and also can still be an enjoyable part of a great story. Some of the examples mentioned I’d argue fit that criteria.
|
|
|
Post by Hit Girl on Nov 10, 2018 16:17:17 GMT -5
Useful tip.
If you're writing a fan fiction, and your main character is a goth who has sex with Draco Malfoy, she's probably a Mary Sue.
|
|
|
Post by MC Blowfish on Nov 11, 2018 6:44:07 GMT -5
Except she trained them and told them what to expect. She marched into the hive, had no problem killing several of them. Surviving with little to no military training while the others were wiped out fairly easily. She had little to no training on said makeshift weapon that multiple weapons fashioned together. Which I would think that it took time to master for the same marines that got wiped out. Yet she walked in without any issues. She didn't train them, and didn't march in with them in their first encounter. She did describe her experiences, and that the marines ignored that information, and were otherwise overconfident and using incorrect tactics is done purposefully, as an allegory for Vietnam. And the make shift weapon Cela refers to is the cargo loader thing at the very end, which the movie demonstrated she was proficient in. With the make shift weapon you are referring to, there's a well known deleted scene where Hicks teaches her to handle and fire the rifle. She used that weapon proficiently, while having very little training on it. Not to mention it was combination weapon. Yet he thinks Rey would have issues with a lightsaber against an injured opponent, who was ordered to take her alive. She did train them in regards to what they were facing. Yet all, but three of them were wiped out. Even with poor tactics, they were saved by *gasp* a woman who later walks into the same hive. Takes out the nest, multiple Xenomorphs without an issue. Had this movie came out a year ago or even today. The anti-Rey crowd would be screaming about this.
|
|
|
Post by Limity (BLM) on Nov 11, 2018 11:35:37 GMT -5
She didn't train them, and didn't march in with them in their first encounter. She did describe her experiences, and that the marines ignored that information, and were otherwise overconfident and using incorrect tactics is done purposefully, as an allegory for Vietnam. And the make shift weapon Cela refers to is the cargo loader thing at the very end, which the movie demonstrated she was proficient in. With the make shift weapon you are referring to, there's a well known deleted scene where Hicks teaches her to handle and fire the rifle. She used that weapon proficiently, while having very little training on it. Not to mention it was combination weapon. Yet he thinks Rey would have issues with a lightsaber against an injured opponent, who was ordered to take her alive. She did train them in regards to what they were facing. Yet all, but three of them were wiped out. Even with poor tactics, they were saved by *gasp* a woman who later walks into the same hive. Takes out the nest, multiple Xenomorphs without an issue. Had this movie came out a year ago or even today. The anti-Rey crowd would be screaming about this. The proficiency in a weapon could just as easily be chalked up to it being a movie, and she being the movie's protagonist. And that it was a combination weapon could just as easily mean nothing as much as you insist that it could mean something. And a three minute foreboding monologue in a hangar bay can hardly be considered training. Did she save them? Yes, by blasting through a building with an ATV. And the marines being ambushed and overwhelmed, and the inexperienced LT freezing, requiring Ripley to step in, was done purposefully for specific reasons I mentioned previously. We may have our differences, but I'm sure what we can all agree on is Alien 3 is awesome! Am I right? I cant be the only one!
|
|