How do you define a "Mary Sue"/"Gary Stu"?

[agent817]

So I have read a few things recently about how these types of characters are much maligned in fiction/media, especially in the fanfiction community. Are there any actual characters in TV shows or movies that could be defined as such?

[Chainsaw]

I kinda don't, because I find the shit sexist and just created to take away from female heroes. The Gary Stu didn't come about until there was pushback about Mary Sues being created. It's bullshit.

[HMARK Center]

Yeah, I agree that it's a term that's been largely deployed for sexist purposes, but if it has any application it's more in the "self-insert"/"author avatar" style of fan fictions that are out there where it's painfully obvious what's being done.

Too many people have used it to describe any protagonist who's good at anything, which has deprived the term of much of its meaning.

[Tenshigure]

Mary Sue: Bella Swan

Gary Stu: Wesley Crusher


Basically any character that looks and reads like a self-insertion by the writer.

[Feyrhausen]

Wesley Crusher is a prime example I believe.

[Mister Pigwell]

It's mostly just a "this is a character I don't feel should be this competent because I don't like them" thing and largely aimed at female characters with a token male thrown in so they can say "SEE, NOT SEXIST". The term has lost any actual meaning by this point.

[Deleted]

I feel like it's kind of hard to pin down, but there is something to the concept.

Like people applying it to say, Rey. Yeah, that's bullshit and basically just holding it against her things no one questions in other main heroes because she's a woman. By the same token, I feel like it's unfair to leverage it at Wesley Crusher past season 1 because he DOES have faults and people will call him out on them, and even in later episodes where he'd save the ship it was usually done in a way where he still couldn't quite do it alone, like The Game.

You want an actual Mary Sue, off the top of my head, Empress Theresa. Just a vindictive, egotistical character everyone constantly praises as being incredibly kind and beautiful and friendly and important who can instantly solve everything. Which actually describes the entirety of the season 1 TNG cast now that I think about it.

[chrom]

Sasuke and Itachi

Hell the entire clan was a whole cast of them. Everyone gushed over how cool and awesome they were despite them being power hungry fanatics who everything they had ever obtained they stole from another.

The main character even went and called one who was a Genocidal Maniac the coolest.

[Deleted]

It is very much a real concept that has been hijacked by people mostly afraid of change and turned into a sexist argument even though most of the people having that argument aren't even old enough to have been adults when the term was coined. It originates as far back as the 70's in a fan fiction called A Trekkie's Tale. It was a parody story (written by a woman, in case that matters to you here) that made fun of the common tropes of self-insert fan fiction at the time. The character's name was Mary Sue and thus the name was born. The author became a writer for the various fanzines of the time and used the name to refer to the character trope from then on. Originally, Mary Sue only applied to Fan Fiction and "Canon Sue" applied to instances of any Mary Sue-like characters that appeared in a canonical source.

It's female leaning has mostly to do with its massive prevalence in Fan Fiction which has always skewed toward female writers. It is/was especially notable in its inclusion in erotic and romantic fan fiction where the character was a stand in for the author and would often become the desire of the most notable male characters of the work. It used to also be unisex in usage before becoming more widespread where the term suddenly became only used for female characters. This created the Gary Stu (and before that, Marty Stu) terms to be used for male examples, when before males were also just referred to as Mary Sues. In fan fiction, the male examples were primarily characters who would appear and be more powerful/skilled than the current male members of the cast. The romantic interest aspects are generally less prevalent since the majority of these characters are written by teenagers/tweens.

In mass media, Marys/Garys are very uncommon. Bella Swan from Twilight is the most well known example from modern media. She ticks off every notable quality in quick succession and is pretty much the most blatant example of one you will ever find in anything produced by a major studio. A male example would be Boruto in the eponymous sequel to Naruto. The most notable one in history is Wesley Crusher in Star Trek: The Next Generation, though he actually fails to tick off some qualities. Another good one is Alice in the Resident Evil movies. She's an especially good example as she was inserted into an existing franchise at the detriment of the original characters and became the focus of all plots and attention despite not even existing in the original works in any capacity. Other examples of characters that display some or a lot of Mary/Gary qualities include: Kirito in Sword Art online, Rey in Star Wars, Wolverine, John Wick, and Mutt Williams in Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull.

[Ryback on a Pole!]

I don't buy the claim that it's sexist and targeting just powerful women.

There are plenty of strong, kick ass female characters who don't get the Mary Sue tag, even in shows, books and movies with the same fandoms who throw the Mary Sue label around.

Michonne and Carol from TWD, Clem from TWD game, Arya Stark, Sansa Stark, Brienne from GoT, Ripley from Alien, Willow and Buffy from Buffy, Ellie from TLOU...

All badass, all avoid the Mary Sue label.

If it was sexist and a backlash against powerful women, then the same people would hate Michonne, Sansa, Ellie etc.

For me it seems more a label that gets thrown to characters who have no character or personality beyond being skilled.

[The Summer of Muskrat XVII]

It's a label for people who don't like female lead characters. Nothing more, nothing less. Don't like a chick? Call her a Mary Sue, then you look less sexist.

[prettynami]

When I think of male mary sues I usually instantly think of Tenchi from Tenchi Muyo. Guy is a god (literally) of everything and even shares the same family name as his creator. He also has the personality of a brick. Everyone of any importance in the universe is drawn to him or in literal love with him. Hell, most everyone of importance is literally related to him in some form or another.

I can't think of a female mary sue that immediately comes to mind from something I'm actually familiar with (at least something I'm aware of that I care enough to think of...).

[Bub (BLM)]

To me it's a character who always has the answers, or is always being talked about/fawned over by the other characters, or has plots continually revolve around them despite being part of an ensemble, or somehow always saves the day while their contemporaries are incapacitated, or suddenly goes from average civilian to OMG I'M A HERO NOW. Kitty Pryde, Tony Stark (MCU), Iris West (TV), Wolverine (Fox-Men) just to name a few for me.

[DZ: WF Legacy]

Nadine in Uncharted 4. Love the game and like Elena every bit as much as Nathan in this story, but Nadine being this unstoppable force you could never get the best of was just absurd.

[agent817]

You guys are making some good points here. I will level with you about the reason I asked this. Lately I have been writing a fanfic based on Dead Rising, where two of the lead characters were savable survivors from Dead Rising 2, as this story was spun off of an anthology story that I wrote of the Dead Rising 2 survivors (There is a third lead character, but she is an original character of mine). I also must note that I did a pairing of said characters in the anthology because someone had pitched it to me and I ran with it. Anyway, because these characters were not very well-developed, I fleshed them out a bit, but in this spin-off that I am writing, I kind of developed them to a point that at they had learned some skills from various means. Also, TO BE FAIR, this story is supposed to take place some time after the events of DR2, so it's not like a person can grow and develop over time.

Also, building on what Hit-Monkey had noted, as well as the subject matter of my story, look at how the protagonists of the Dead Rising games were, but you could argue that a lot of the skills had developed because they had leveled up during the course of their respective games. But when talking about their personalities, they do have their flaws, especially Nick.

[Goldenbane]

Mary Sues and Gary Stus exist, whether some people want to admit it or not. If you don't believe they are a thing, you are either stupid, delusional, not paying attention, don't care, or any possible combination of the four (and to be fair, probably other reasons as well). However, I find that "sues" (for shortness sake) are extremely hard to point out, as there are so many different versions of them and...over time as characters are passed from writer to writer, "sues" lose or gain their status as years pass by. It's also a problem because one fan's "sue" is not another fan's.

Some examples

There's the villain sue which always seems to "get one over" on the heroes no matter what the time or place is. Dr. Doom, Joker, and Thanos have all had this problem at various stages in their career.

There's the "comical sue" who manages unbelievable victories over other characters...and hides behind "I'm a joke character! Don't you get it? I can just do that!" See Squirrel Girl and One Punch Man.

Characters like Carol Danvers/Ms. Marvel/Warbird/Captain Marvel have NOT been "sues" for the vast majority of their history, but in recent times, due to political climate and awful writers, they have become such.

Superman and Batman both struggle with the "one fan's sue is not another fan's sue" issue. I personally (and many other fans as well), find Batman to more often be the "sue" character, but there's plenty of arguments that Superman is actually the perpetrator.

Sometimes I think a character gets labeled a "sue" because of horrible writing or just plain crap timing. If Spider-man fans have been following a serious story where the Green Goblin has permanently put Mary Jane in a wheel chair, and for the past 20 issues we've been on the edge or our seats as waiting and hoping for the big moment when Peter Parker kicks the stuffing out of Norman Osborn...and suddenly Miles Morales comes in and beats Norman in 2 panels...well...Miles just became/came off like a Mary Sue. The story should have either not had Miles show up at all, wait until Peter had already beaten Norman handily with no excuses, or maybe have Miles get the crap beaten out of him as well, or something. Instead, in this example, Miles not only stole all of Peter's glory, but also made him look like a complete jack ass and buffoon. Miles then doesn't gain anything because fans probably aren't going to buy that he can "just beat Norman Osborn in 2 panels, when Peter Parker couldn't beat him in 20 issues!" and Norman Osborn comes off looking like a dumb ass too.

It's hard to explain, and I could probably go on and on, but I hope this shines some light on the subject.

[JoDaNa1281]

Alice from the Resident Evil movie series is a definite example of a Mary Sue.

[Ryback on a Pole!]

Nov 5, 2018 20:38:48 GMT -5 Goldenbane said:

Mary Sues and Gary Stus exist, whether some people want to admit it or not. If you don't believe they are a thing, you are either stupid, delusional, not paying attention, don't care, or any possible combination of the four (and to be fair, probably other reasons as well). However, I find that "sues" (for shortness sake) are extremely hard to point out, as there are so many different versions of them and...over time as characters are passed from writer to writer, "sues" lose or gain their status as years pass by. It's also a problem because one fan's "sue" is not another fan's.

Some examples

There's the villain sue which always seems to "get one over" on the heroes no matter what the time or place is. Dr. Doom, Joker, and Thanos have all had this problem at various stages in their career.

There's the "comical sue" who manages unbelievable victories over other characters...and hides behind "I'm a joke character! Don't you get it? I can just do that!" See Squirrel Girl and One Punch Man.

Characters like Carol Danvers/Ms. Marvel/Warbird/Captain Marvel have NOT been "sues" for the vast majority of their history, but in recent times, due to political climate and awful writers, they have become such.

Superman and Batman both struggle with the "one fan's sue is not another fan's sue" issue. I personally (and many other fans as well), find Batman to more often be the "sue" character, but there's plenty of arguments that Superman is actually the perpetrator.

Sometimes I think a character gets labeled a "sue" because of horrible writing or just plain crap timing. If Spider-man fans have been following a serious story where the Green Goblin has permanently put Mary Jane in a wheel chair, and for the past 20 issues we've been on the edge or our seats as waiting and hoping for the big moment when Peter Parker kicks the stuffing out of Norman Osborn...and suddenly Miles Morales comes in and beats Norman in 2 panels...well...Miles just became/came off like a Mary Sue. The story should have either not had Miles show up at all, wait until Peter had already beaten Norman handily with no excuses, or maybe have Miles get the crap beaten out of him as well, or something. Instead, in this example, Miles not only stole all of Peter's glory, but also made him look like a complete jack ass and buffoon. Miles then doesn't gain anything because fans probably aren't going to buy that he can "just beat Norman Osborn in 2 panels, when Peter Parker couldn't beat him in 20 issues!" and Norman Osborn comes off looking like a dumb ass too.

It's hard to explain, and I could probably go on and on, but I hope this shines some light on the subject.

Horrible writing seems to be the main thing that leads to it.

The female characters I mentioned as avoiding the Sue label are all well written, well developed characters who we see grow and evolve.

Just look at Arya.

Arts is just as badass as any other female character, but doesn't get the label because she's well written. We see her grow from a decent little girl, go through hardships, training, failures to eventually becoming the kickass assassin we've got now.

Clem from TWD. We're with her as a frightened kid in a tree house. We see her grow, adapt, learn to shoot. Learn to survive.

Michonne, were introduced to her as a badass then through the show we learn about her. Her motivations, why she carries a sword, her background, losing her kids and what led to her been like this. Great character.

[HMARK Center]

I really disagree with a lot of the examples here: a character just being good at stuff or often "winning" in a story doesn't capture what the purpose of the term was meant to encapsulate. If you want to call something bad writing, sure, go ahead, or if you want to call out an ass-pull on the part of writers that works, too, but none of that makes a character a "Sue".

[H-Virus]

The thing about Sues is: Generally speaking, most characters outside of fanfiction-oriented characters are never full-blown Sues, but there are a lot of characters in media that possess Sue qualities.


Does the character have an unexplained talent or ability that isn't natural to the world they live in (Ex: The only psychic in a world of normal humans)? Or is from a race or species that doesn't exist in that world? Those are Sue qualities.

Can the character get away with anything, including breaking the law or spitting in the face of authority, but never have to worry about facing repercussions for their bullshit? That's a Sue quality.

Is the character loved by everyone, and anyone who has something bad to say about them is considered evil or jealous, even if what they're saying makes sense? That's a Sue quality.

Does their tragic backstory make them sympathetic to everyone, even though the other characters also have tragic backstories that people don't seem to care nearly as much about? That's a Sue quality.

Does the character have the solution to any problem that comes up, and they're always proven right in the end no matter who disagrees with them? That's a Sue quality.

When the character isn't around, do other characters stand around saying "Where's (Insert Name)? I miss (Insert Name)!"? That's a Sue quality.

Just to list a few things.


Now, that's not to say that having one or even two of those qualities automatically makes a character a Sue. In the end, it's all about how balanced the character is; do they have real, legitimate flaws that make those other qualities less offensive? Do they struggle along the way to completing their goals? Are they fleshed out and serve a purpose beyond just "Look how awesome this character is!"?

Like, I've often said that, in the hands of a bad writer, Batman is one of the biggest Sues of all time.

1. A seemingly endless supply of money
2. Super-genius in several different fields
3. The apex of strength, speed and endurance for a non-superpowered human
4. Has supermodels, heroines and villainesses wanting to get him into bed
5. Always proven right when he clashes with other members of the League or his Bat family
6. Vigilante who doesn't answer to actual law enforcement
7. Inventor
8. Always has a plan and a back-up plan and a back-up-back-up plan in case the back-up plan fails.
9. Can defeat anyone with enough prep-time
10. Other heroes talk about how amazing he is despite not having any superpowers like them.

If it wasn't for the fact that there are dozens of other people in his universe that can do a lot of the same things he can do, as well as having a lot of psychological and trust issues, and knowing that he's fighting a losing battle and will never truly be able to achieve his lifelong goal of wiping out all crime in Gotham City no matter how many years he works at it, he'd be a full-blown Sue for certain. But like I said: good writers know how to find that balance. It's when people can't (or don't want to) find that balance that they end up writing Sues, none more prevalent than the inexperienced fanfiction writers who think the best way to write a character is by making them as strong/smart/beloved/sympathetic/badass as possible with no flaws to even them out.


And I reject the idea that 'Mary Sue' is nothing but a term made up by misogynists. I'm quite certain that misogynists like to throw the word around to get their point across, but to dismiss the idea that NO character (male or female) can be a Mary Sue for any reason besides sexist undertones is flat out wrong. And if you disagree with me, feel free to explain in as much detail as you like how Bella Swan is NOT a Mary Sue.