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Post by Cyno on Mar 16, 2019 12:11:18 GMT -5
Ben Shapiro is Jewish so he's not going to be on board with white supremacy and to his credit, he has actively denounced it. That said, you can be an Islamaphobe without being a white supremacist and Ben Shapiro is most definitely an Islamaphobe. Even if he has toned it down from when he used to be at Breitbart.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Mar 16, 2019 13:27:56 GMT -5
Ben Shapiro is Jewish so he's not going to be on board with white supremacy and to his credit, he has actively denounced it. That said, you can be an Islamaphobe without being a white supremacist and Ben Shapiro is most definitely an Islamaphobe. Even if he has toned it down from when he used to be at Breitbart. Ben Shapiro? Oh the baby Hitler defender that guy.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Mar 16, 2019 13:31:10 GMT -5
The piece of shit deserves to be removed from government, he literally advocates for a genocide.
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FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Particularly fond of muffins.
Posts: 16,457
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Post by FinalGwen on Mar 16, 2019 13:46:08 GMT -5
Seeing a lot of calls for "deplatforming" today, but honestly, I don't think deplatforming is viable in the long run. It just quarantines the worst/angriest/most hateful/etc. voices into ever-darker bubbles of the internet where their views are only going to be hardened (because they're only going to engage with people who already think the way they do). Deradicalization is a newer and more difficult process, but far more promising, IMO. Although when banned from social media and Patreon, Milo Yiannopolous found himself drifting into obscurity and debt, not really that useful to his allies any more, and doesn't have nearly the media presence he used to despite still trying to court controversy.
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
Posts: 28,051
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Post by chazraps on Mar 16, 2019 13:51:32 GMT -5
Seeing a lot of calls for "deplatforming" today, but honestly, I don't think deplatforming is viable in the long run. It just quarantines the worst/angriest/most hateful/etc. voices into ever-darker bubbles of the internet where their views are only going to be hardened (because they're only going to engage with people who already think the way they do). Deradicalization is a newer and more difficult process, but far more promising, IMO. No, deplatforming works. Look at Milo. Those bubbles don't harden, they pop.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Mar 16, 2019 14:23:13 GMT -5
Seeing a lot of calls for "deplatforming" today, but honestly, I don't think deplatforming is viable in the long run. It just quarantines the worst/angriest/most hateful/etc. voices into ever-darker bubbles of the internet where their views are only going to be hardened (because they're only going to engage with people who already think the way they do). Deradicalization is a newer and more difficult process, but far more promising, IMO. No, deplatforming works. Look at Milo. Those bubbles don't harden, they pop. Or that psycho chick that handcuffed herself to twitter hq lol.
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Post by Cyno on Mar 16, 2019 14:57:50 GMT -5
I can see the arguments both for and against deplatforming's effectiveness, but while it does make the already radical even more radical, it also makes recruitment efforts much harder and these groups less accepted in mainstream societies.
Going back to ISIL, one of the things that made the group so scary is not just the attacks their operatives carried out, but their use of social media and other propaganda tools to reach out to the disaffected from all backgrounds and walks of life. This was combined with social media sites being either extremely lax, unwilling, or unable to take down propaganda accounts and blogs. And a lot of domestic terror groups work in a similar way to recruit and radicalize. Take away the ease of access to this material from sites who should really put more of an effort in to policing themselves and you make it a lot harder for them to spread their message of hatred of people different from them.
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Post by 1 Free Moon-Down with Burger on Mar 16, 2019 15:26:37 GMT -5
I can see the arguments both for and against deplatforming's effectiveness, but while it does make the already radical even more radical, it also makes recruitment efforts much harder and these groups less accepted in mainstream societies. Going back to ISIL, one of the things that made the group so scary is not just the attacks their operatives carried out, but their use of social media and other propaganda tools to reach out to the disaffected from all backgrounds and walks of life. This was combined with social media sites being either extremely lax, unwilling, or unable to take down propaganda accounts and blogs. And a lot of domestic terror groups work in a similar way to recruit and radicalize. Take away the ease of access to this material from sites who should really put more of an effort in to policing themselves and you make it a lot harder for them to spread their message of hatred of people different from them. Totally agreed here. We need to work hard to try and cut this stuff off at the bud but we need to know where to attack and who to attack. If you want to deplatform someone like Shapiro, it's hypocritical to not do the same to something like The Young Turks. Everything is buzzy right now and things are becoming so backward that it's hard to tell what's a legitimate threat and what's just assholes talking shit. I'm alittle worried about the mindset becoming "Well I'm a hammer so everything is a nail." Something definitely needs work though. There are sick people who are losing grasp on reality at an alarming rate.
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Post by Hakumental on Mar 16, 2019 15:30:15 GMT -5
Although when banned from social media and Patreon, Milo Yiannopolous found himself drifting into obscurity and debt, not really that useful to his allies any more, and doesn't have nearly the media presence he used to despite still trying to court controversy. No, deplatforming works. Look at Milo. Those bubbles don't harden, they pop. Yeah, and then nobody ever agreed with Milo again or looked at him getting banned and thought "wow, see, they ARE censoring us, they can't beat us in an actual argument and have to resort to silencing us, so we'll just reorganize somewhere they don't know about and can't control" and we all lived Happily Ever After. The End. ...well. If it were only that easy. ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png) I know it sucks, but there will be another Milo, another Gavin, another PDP, another Roosh or Cernovich, another head of this endless hydra that's just going to come back just a little tougher and a little more cunning every time one of them is deplatformed. And the psychos who claim those types of personalities enabled them? They go anonymous or they make their own spaces. No matter how hard you make it for them to meet and talk to each other, they'll find somewhere you haven't muted yet. This loser in NZ found 8chan, and that's not even the worst of these places.
Personally, I say the way to fight their kind of thinking is the slow way: convince them that our ideas are better than theirs, are more grounded in reality, and produce better ways of life - not to simply keep cutting off speaking avenues and donation bins until they absolutely are convinced it's "them against the world." If people feel swarmed and surrounded, they do harden. They can even become dangerous. Sun Tzu said something very smart about that a long time ago. Being completely deplatformed is a badge of honor for some of these types, too. They start seeing themselves as underdogs and living martyrs, denied their rights to free speech. The "freedom of speech doesn't equal freedom from consequences" is a useless platitude with these types of people. You don't convince them of anything with it - except that you are their enemy and there is no way out. So no, I'm not satisfied with the results of deplatforming and I don't see it working in the long term. I'd like to see deradicalization get its chance.
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Post by Alice Syndrome on Mar 16, 2019 15:58:20 GMT -5
The actual chances of a kid being converted by a white supremacist group on the internet are extremely minimal. I wish that was true, but I've seen actual friends of mine get caught down that rabbit hole. They don't recruit with "hey everyone that isn't white has to die". It's all little lies, little strawman stuff of "an ess jay doubleyew is complaining about this thing you like" or "This person is claiming their gender is the planet Neptune" (Yeah, learn to spot the obvious fakes of those that are trying to make trans and non binary people look bad) and "These PC people are trying to censor your Games/Comics/Anime/Furry porn (seriously)/music/whatever" and then it's "Hey isn't it weird how a lot of people complaining about this are Jewish/have funding from Jews?" (More subtly than that but you get the point) It's just little things trying to slide you down a slippery slope.
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Mar 16, 2019 16:02:26 GMT -5
RIP to all those poor people.
Can we please get rid of live streaming? Sorry, humanity, you had your chance with it but no need for anyone to ever replicate this with the technology.
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
Posts: 28,051
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Post by chazraps on Mar 16, 2019 16:48:07 GMT -5
Although when banned from social media and Patreon, Milo Yiannopolous found himself drifting into obscurity and debt, not really that useful to his allies any more, and doesn't have nearly the media presence he used to despite still trying to court controversy. No, deplatforming works. Look at Milo. Those bubbles don't harden, they pop. Yeah, and then nobody ever agreed with Milo again or looked at him getting banned and thought "wow, see, they ARE censoring us, they can't beat us in an actual argument and have to resort to silencing us, so we'll just reorganize somewhere they don't know about and can't control" and we all lived Happily Ever After. The End. ...well. If it were only that easy. ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png) I know it sucks, but there will be another Milo, another Gavin, another PDP, another Roosh or Cernovich, another head of this endless hydra that's just going to come back just a little tougher and a little more cunning every time one of them is deplatformed. And the psychos who claim those types of personalities enabled them? They go anonymous or they make their own spaces. No matter how hard you make it for them to meet and talk to each other, they'll find somewhere you haven't muted yet. This loser in NZ found 8chan, and that's not even the worst of these places.
Personally, I say the way to fight their kind of thinking is the slow way: convince them that our ideas are better than theirs, are more grounded in reality, and produce better ways of life - not to simply keep cutting off speaking avenues and donation bins until they absolutely are convinced it's "them against the world." If people feel swarmed and surrounded, they do harden. They can even become dangerous. Sun Tzu said something very smart about that a long time ago. Being completely deplatformed is a badge of honor for some of these types, too. They start seeing themselves as underdogs and living martyrs, denied their rights to free speech. The "freedom of speech doesn't equal freedom from consequences" is a useless platitude with these types of people. You don't convince them of anything with it - except that you are their enemy and there is no way out. So no, I'm not satisfied with the results of deplatforming and I don't see it working in the long term. I'd like to see deradicalization get its chance.
No, they don't come back "tougher" or "more cunning." They go away. This has been proven. The momentum stateside of the alt-right/Info Wars/Proud Boys has been significantly stalled. It doesn't eradicate hate entirely, absolutely nobody advocating for deplatforming is naive enough to think it does. But when they lose their platform, they lose their voice and they lose their power. When regional cult leaders lose their radio show, or hate groups lose their place of meeting, the ripple effect is seen in less hate crimes and less societal damage.
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
Posts: 28,051
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Post by chazraps on Mar 16, 2019 16:50:46 GMT -5
The actual chances of a kid being converted by a white supremacist group on the internet are extremely minimal. Unless you have a source to back that up, you really need to do more reading on the topic. The internet is the leading way these groups add to their numbers.
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Post by Hakumental on Mar 16, 2019 17:14:25 GMT -5
No, they don't come back "tougher" or "more cunning." They go away. This has been proven. Age and experience lead me to disagree, but I respect that you have confidence in your method. I just have more confidence in mine.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Mar 16, 2019 17:18:54 GMT -5
The actual chances of a kid being converted by a white supremacist group on the internet are extremely minimal. Unless you have a source to back that up, you really need to do more reading on the topic. The internet is the leading way these groups add to their numbers. Specially when the most popular YouTube encourages that bullshit then hids behind “its only jokes” and then does it again.
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Sephiroth
Wade Wilson
Surviving
Posts: 29,057
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Post by Sephiroth on Mar 16, 2019 17:42:01 GMT -5
The actual chances of a kid being converted by a white supremacist group on the internet are extremely minimal. I wish that was true, but I've seen actual friends of mine get caught down that rabbit hole. They don't recruit with "hey everyone that isn't white has to die". It's all little lies, little strawman stuff of "an ess jay doubleyew is complaining about this thing you like" or "This person is claiming their gender is the planet Neptune" (Yeah, learn to spot the obvious fakes of those that are trying to make trans and non binary people look bad) and "These PC people are trying to censor your Games/Comics/Anime/Furry porn (seriously)/music/whatever" and then it's "Hey isn't it weird how a lot of people complaining about this are Jewish/have funding from Jews?" (More subtly than that but you get the point) It's just little things trying to slide you down a slippery slope. Don’t you censor my fur-oh wait...
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Post by Joe Neglia on Mar 16, 2019 18:02:55 GMT -5
Away from the political stuff, folks.
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Post by SsnakeBite, the No1 Frenchman on Mar 16, 2019 19:05:34 GMT -5
The people arguing that this is justified because of Islamist extremism make me want to puke. Sure, killing innocent people sure makes up for killing innocent people. Wait.
Gotta love that anti-logic of "some guy did something evil, so I want to punish these people who aren't him over there". Oh and of course, these people tend to ignore that the first target of Islamists... is moderate Muslims. After all, much like how White Supremacists hate nothing more than "race traitors" (a.k.a. any White person whom isn't a supremacist), all extremists groups always target people from their demographic whom don't blindly hate everyone else and promote peace and harmony first.
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Post by 1 Free Moon-Down with Burger on Mar 16, 2019 21:17:53 GMT -5
Reading the manifesto alittle further. Dude pretty much says he only did it to cause more division in the world.
Somehow it’s still working.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Mar 16, 2019 21:22:34 GMT -5
Reading the manifesto alittle further. Dude pretty much says he only did it to cause more division in the world. Somehow it’s still working. I think we reached the tipping point a while back. Division sells, a lot of very influential people are getting very rich off the back of it, and the longer it goes on the easier it gets to widen the gap.
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