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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Aug 23, 2019 18:57:25 GMT -5
Based on the rules of the movie, the Stone has to be replaced the same moment it originally leaves, which isn't when Nat dies, but when Clint quantum jumps back to 2023. So returning the Soul Stone doesn't prevent her from dying, as she's still already dead by the time Cap brings it back. Now, if he were to bring it back before she died and just handed it to her and Clint and they used that instead... Good point. You have to wonder if he would have thought of that, though. And it creates a paradox that makes my brain hurt lol Hence why I left the point open ended. I'm sure it probably creates a universe-ending paradox somewhere down the line, but I like not having a headache from trying to think it all through.
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Post by Celexa Bliss 54 on Aug 23, 2019 19:04:54 GMT -5
Good point. You have to wonder if he would have thought of that, though. And it creates a paradox that makes my brain hurt lol Hence why I left the point open ended. I'm sure it probably creates a universe-ending paradox somewhere down the line, but I like not having a headache from trying to think it all through. I could probably work it out lol but I need that part of my brain right now to work on a Family Matters fanfic
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Post by Larryhausen on Aug 23, 2019 19:58:26 GMT -5
Good point. You have to wonder if he would have thought of that, though. And it creates a paradox that makes my brain hurt lol Hence why I left the point open ended. I'm sure it probably creates a universe-ending paradox somewhere down the line, but I like not having a headache from trying to think it all through. Just repeat to yourself "it's just a show, I should really just relax."
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Aug 23, 2019 20:07:51 GMT -5
Hence why I left the point open ended. I'm sure it probably creates a universe-ending paradox somewhere down the line, but I like not having a headache from trying to think it all through. Just repeat to yourself "it's just a show, I should really just relax."
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Shark
Hank Scorpio
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Posts: 7,045
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Post by Shark on Aug 24, 2019 2:58:37 GMT -5
I once read something from a comic artist who said that they tend to draw heroes charging from left to right, because that's the way(most of us) read, and going right to left would subconsciously imply a retreat. I also read that The Russo's wanted the Assemble Charge to feel like a splash page from a comic. I just realized that almost every single forward movement by the heroes in the final battle was, you guessed it, moving to the right of the screen. I really hope that was intentional as well. The Russos are detail oriented enough that I can see that being 100% intentional. It was like that even for Infinity War during the Wakanda battle.
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Post by Citizen Snips Has Left on Aug 25, 2019 9:21:16 GMT -5
I once read something from a comic artist who said that they tend to draw heroes charging from left to right, because that's the way(most of us) read, and going right to left would subconsciously imply a retreat. I also read that The Russo's wanted the Assemble Charge to feel like a splash page from a comic. I just realized that almost every single forward movement by the heroes in the final battle was, you guessed it, moving to the right of the screen. I really hope that was intentional as well. The Russos are detail oriented enough that I can see that being 100% intentional. It was like that even for Infinity War during the Wakanda battle. That's not the Russos, that's standard visual story-telling. Watch Lord of the Rings or Star Wars; the good guys are almost always on the left, bad guys on the right, for the reasons stated by that artist.
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Post by Perpetual Nirvana on Sept 2, 2019 12:36:12 GMT -5
I just watched the Portals scene again and something occurred to me. Steve pretty much declares everyone there an Avenger. So Howard the Duck is officially an Avenger. I refuse to believe otherwise.
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Post by "Cane Dewey" Johnson on Sept 2, 2019 13:28:03 GMT -5
So how does Captain America returning the Tesseract to 1970 work when the Space Stone isn't even in the cube anymore? He can't simply put the stone, minus cube, back in the container, right?
Unless Steve uses the Time Stone to undo breaking the Tesseract. But if he can use the Time Stone to do that, could Steve have also used the Time Stone to undo Black Widow's death on Vormir, exactly like how Thanos undid Vision's death in Infinity War?
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Sept 2, 2019 13:29:35 GMT -5
So how does Captain America returning the Tesseract to 1970 work when the Space Stone isn't even in the cube anymore? He can't simply put the stone, minus cube, back in the container, right? Unless Steve uses the Time Stone to undo breaking the Tesseract. But if he can use the Time Stone to do that, could Steve have also used the Time Stone to undo Black Widow's death on Vormir, exactly like how Thanos undid Vision's death in Infinity War? I think with the Soul Stone, you can’t simply undo a death that happens on Vormir with the Stone Keeper’s deal, even if Cap used the Time Stone.
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Post by Citizen Snips Has Left on Sept 2, 2019 13:34:28 GMT -5
Talking about time travel/Cap putting the stones back is going to be the Montreal Screwjob of films, isn't it? Just a circular conversation that lasts for 15 years.
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Post by "Cane Dewey" Johnson on Sept 2, 2019 13:48:02 GMT -5
So how does Captain America returning the Tesseract to 1970 work when the Space Stone isn't even in the cube anymore? He can't simply put the stone, minus cube, back in the container, right? Unless Steve uses the Time Stone to undo breaking the Tesseract. But if he can use the Time Stone to do that, could Steve have also used the Time Stone to undo Black Widow's death on Vormir, exactly like how Thanos undid Vision's death in Infinity War? I think with the Soul Stone, you can’t simply undo a death that happens on Vormir with the Stone Keeper’s deal, even if Cap used the Time Stone. The Soul Stone allows audience members to think about so many strange scenarios because of the vaguely-defined rules (guidelines?) of the last two Avengers movie. Say, if you brought your five favourite pet mice with you, could you throw them off the cliff individually or all at once in order to farm Soul Stones? If you're a panpsychist, could you throw your favourite Billy Joel vinyl record off the cliff to get the Soul Stone? Are the statements "you must lose that which you love" and "a soul for a soul" equal and reinforcing statements or potentially opposing ones? If Scarlet Witch went to Vormir and threw Vision off the cliff, would she get the Soul Stone? Does a being like Vision, who is a synthezoid, even have a soul? These questions ultimately don't really matter to the narrative because we're not meant to think that much or that hard about the Vormir sequences, but they're fun to entertain. It's like how Cap and Iron rib Thor at the end of Age of Ultron about who or what can lift Thor's hammer.
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Post by "Cane Dewey" Johnson on Sept 2, 2019 13:51:15 GMT -5
Talking about time travel/Cap putting the stones back is going to be the Montreal Screwjob of films, isn't it? Just a circular conversation that lasts for 15 years. Steve screwed Steve? Nah, Peggy screwed Steve. Totally different from the Montreal Screwjob.
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salz4life
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Post by salz4life on Sept 3, 2019 10:03:44 GMT -5
I just watched the Portals scene again and something occurred to me. Steve pretty much declares everyone there an Avenger. So Howard the Duck is officially an Avenger. I refuse to believe otherwise. I still want a Howard The Duck movie in the MCU. It will never happen, but I hold out hope..... LOL
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2019 10:58:26 GMT -5
Talking about time travel/Cap putting the stones back is going to be the Montreal Screwjob of films, isn't it? Just a circular conversation that lasts for 15 years. Disney/Marvel literally threw 600 things in people's faces a few weekends ago to distract the fanboyz from this and so far it seems to have worked nicely.
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Dr. T is an alien
Patti Mayonnaise
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Sept 3, 2019 12:27:15 GMT -5
So how does Captain America returning the Tesseract to 1970 work when the Space Stone isn't even in the cube anymore? He can't simply put the stone, minus cube, back in the container, right? Unless Steve uses the Time Stone to undo breaking the Tesseract. But if he can use the Time Stone to do that, could Steve have also used the Time Stone to undo Black Widow's death on Vormir, exactly like how Thanos undid Vision's death in Infinity War? Here's the thing that nobody seems to remember; they are separate timelines and do not have to have the same history as the primary MCU timeline. - Cap does not have to put the Reality Stone back into Jane Foster. He simply has to return the stone to that timeline at the same time it was removed. Hell, if he wanted to he could use his future knowledge to change that timeline for the better before moving on. - Cap does not need to give the Soul Stone to Red Skull. He simply has to return to that timeline with the Soul Stone and give it to someone he trusts more than Red Skull (though, to be fair, Vormir probably still is the safest place to keep it). - Cap did not need to let Hydra rise up in Shield in the timeline he chose to grow old in. Now, unless he spent time fixing every timeline he returned a stone to, it probably is safest to return it in the place it was last found in as that has the fewest unforeseen consequences in each timeline. If he did, however, he probably should return Mjolnir and the Reality Stone last in order to do that in the most efficient manner. I do think that would offer an opportunity to bring Mjolnir back to the main timeline, however, if when he went to return it he had adventures along with Thor long enough for Thor to have Stormbreaker made, prompting Thor to let him keep Mjolnir. That way, he could have had Mjolnir with him when he returned to the main timeline to give his shield to Falcon.
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Post by King Boo on Sept 3, 2019 16:27:48 GMT -5
So how does Captain America returning the Tesseract to 1970 work when the Space Stone isn't even in the cube anymore? He can't simply put the stone, minus cube, back in the container, right? Unless Steve uses the Time Stone to undo breaking the Tesseract. But if he can use the Time Stone to do that, could Steve have also used the Time Stone to undo Black Widow's death on Vormir, exactly like how Thanos undid Vision's death in Infinity War? Here's the thing that nobody seems to remember; they are separate timelines and do not have to have the same history as the primary MCU timeline. - Cap does not have to put the Reality Stone back into Jane Foster. He simply has to return the stone to that timeline at the same time it was removed. Hell, if he wanted to he could use his future knowledge to change that timeline for the better before moving on. - Cap does not need to give the Soul Stone to Red Skull. He simply has to return to that timeline with the Soul Stone and give it to someone he trusts more than Red Skull (though, to be fair, Vormir probably still is the safest place to keep it).- Cap did not need to let Hydra rise up in Shield in the timeline he chose to grow old in. Now, unless he spent time fixing every timeline he returned a stone to, it probably is safest to return it in the place it was last found in as that has the fewest unforeseen consequences in each timeline. If he did, however, he probably should return Mjolnir and the Reality Stone last in order to do that in the most efficient manner. I do think that would offer an opportunity to bring Mjolnir back to the main timeline, however, if when he went to return it he had adventures along with Thor long enough for Thor to have Stormbreaker made, prompting Thor to let him keep Mjolnir. That way, he could have had Mjolnir with him when he returned to the main timeline to give his shield to Falcon. The thing that's confusing about all of this is what Bruce says to The Ancient One: Ancient One: "Can your science prevent all that?" Bruce: "No, but we can erase it because once we're done with the stones, we can return each one to it's own timeline at the moment it was taken." Which, to me anyway, doesn't mean it can just return at some close enough point during the same timeline; it would have to be right when we saw each one snagged by an Avenger. Normally, I wouldn't be so semantic-y, but I feel like that line doesn't leave room for a gray area, you know?
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Dr. T is an alien
Patti Mayonnaise
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I've been found out!
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Sept 3, 2019 16:45:50 GMT -5
Here's the thing that nobody seems to remember; they are separate timelines and do not have to have the same history as the primary MCU timeline. - Cap does not have to put the Reality Stone back into Jane Foster. He simply has to return the stone to that timeline at the same time it was removed. Hell, if he wanted to he could use his future knowledge to change that timeline for the better before moving on. - Cap does not need to give the Soul Stone to Red Skull. He simply has to return to that timeline with the Soul Stone and give it to someone he trusts more than Red Skull (though, to be fair, Vormir probably still is the safest place to keep it).- Cap did not need to let Hydra rise up in Shield in the timeline he chose to grow old in. Now, unless he spent time fixing every timeline he returned a stone to, it probably is safest to return it in the place it was last found in as that has the fewest unforeseen consequences in each timeline. If he did, however, he probably should return Mjolnir and the Reality Stone last in order to do that in the most efficient manner. I do think that would offer an opportunity to bring Mjolnir back to the main timeline, however, if when he went to return it he had adventures along with Thor long enough for Thor to have Stormbreaker made, prompting Thor to let him keep Mjolnir. That way, he could have had Mjolnir with him when he returned to the main timeline to give his shield to Falcon. The thing that's confusing about all of this is what Bruce says to The Ancient One: Ancient One: "Can your science prevent all that?" Bruce: "No, but we can erase it because once we're done with the stones, we can return each one to it's own timeline at the moment it was taken." Which, to me anyway, doesn't mean it can just return at some close enough point during the same timeline; it would have to be right when we saw each one snagged by an Avenger. Normally, I wouldn't be so semantic-y, but I feel like that line doesn't leave room for a gray area, you know? I get what you are saying, but all Bruce said is that the stone has to return to the MOMENT it disappeared, not the location. For example, removing the Reality Stone from Jane Foster did not endanger that timeline. After all, it gets done in the main timeline as well. Removing it from existing in the timeline while the other Infinity Stones are present is what endangers it. Technically, winking in the exact moment that the stone gets taken to the main timeline is sufficient to prevent the lack of the stone to destabilize the universe in that timeline. The real rub is what he does with the stones upon arriving. Technically, simply showing up and setting the stone on the ground is the minimum required to achieve mission parameters. Knowing a character like Rogers, however, he isn't simply going to do that. Honestly, showing up and hitching a ride to Asgard in each timeline to leave that timeline's stone in Odin's vault isn't the dumbest idea. After all, the Battle of New York need not happen in one timeline if the Space Stone is already off of Earth. That also means the Mind Stone doesn't come to Earth in that timeline as well. The primary problem that arises is whether Odin's death is directly attributable to being stranded on Earth by Loki or not. If it simply was his time, then some of those stones in those timelines will be exposed due to Hela's emergence.
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Post by King Boo on Sept 3, 2019 17:36:12 GMT -5
The thing that's confusing about all of this is what Bruce says to The Ancient One: Ancient One: "Can your science prevent all that?" Bruce: "No, but we can erase it because once we're done with the stones, we can return each one to it's own timeline at the moment it was taken." Which, to me anyway, doesn't mean it can just return at some close enough point during the same timeline; it would have to be right when we saw each one snagged by an Avenger. Normally, I wouldn't be so semantic-y, but I feel like that line doesn't leave room for a gray area, you know? I get what you are saying, but all Bruce said is that the stone has to return to the MOMENT it disappeared, not the location. For example, removing the Reality Stone from Jane Foster did not endanger that timeline. After all, it gets done in the main timeline as well. Removing it from existing in the timeline while the other Infinity Stones are present is what endangers it. Technically, winking in the exact moment that the stone gets taken to the main timeline is sufficient to prevent the lack of the stone to destabilize the universe in that timeline. The real rub is what he does with the stones upon arriving. Technically, simply showing up and setting the stone on the ground is the minimum required to achieve mission parameters. Knowing a character like Rogers, however, he isn't simply going to do that. Honestly, showing up and hitching a ride to Asgard in each timeline to leave that timeline's stone in Odin's vault isn't the dumbest idea. After all, the Battle of New York need not happen in one timeline if the Space Stone is already off of Earth. That also means the Mind Stone doesn't come to Earth in that timeline as well. The primary problem that arises is whether Odin's death is directly attributable to being stranded on Earth by Loki or not. If it simply was his time, then some of those stones in those timelines will be exposed due to Hela's emergence. Interesting. I hadn't thought about it from this angle. This time travel stuff is headache-y haha
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mcmahonfan85
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Post by mcmahonfan85 on Sept 3, 2019 19:19:00 GMT -5
The thing that's confusing about all of this is what Bruce says to The Ancient One: Ancient One: "Can your science prevent all that?" Bruce: "No, but we can erase it because once we're done with the stones, we can return each one to it's own timeline at the moment it was taken." Which, to me anyway, doesn't mean it can just return at some close enough point during the same timeline; it would have to be right when we saw each one snagged by an Avenger. Normally, I wouldn't be so semantic-y, but I feel like that line doesn't leave room for a gray area, you know? I get what you are saying, but all Bruce said is that the stone has to return to the MOMENT it disappeared, not the location. For example, removing the Reality Stone from Jane Foster did not endanger that timeline. After all, it gets done in the main timeline as well. Removing it from existing in the timeline while the other Infinity Stones are present is what endangers it. Technically, winking in the exact moment that the stone gets taken to the main timeline is sufficient to prevent the lack of the stone to destabilize the universe in that timeline. The real rub is what he does with the stones upon arriving. Technically, simply showing up and setting the stone on the ground is the minimum required to achieve mission parameters. Knowing a character like Rogers, however, he isn't simply going to do that. Honestly, showing up and hitching a ride to Asgard in each timeline to leave that timeline's stone in Odin's vault isn't the dumbest idea. After all, the Battle of New York need not happen in one timeline if the Space Stone is already off of Earth. That also means the Mind Stone doesn't come to Earth in that timeline as well. The primary problem that arises is whether Odin's death is directly attributable to being stranded on Earth by Loki or not. If it simply was his time, then some of those stones in those timelines will be exposed due to Hela's emergence. no, they have to be returned to the same place, otherwise the branched timelines still happen. if the Reality Stone isn't returned to Jane Foster and instead just dropped off on some random planet, it still becomes an alternate timeline. since Malekith can sense the Reality Stone, if Jane doesn't have it he has no reason to go to Asgard, which means the battle doesn't happen, so Friga isn't killed trying to protect Jane, and Loki isn't broken out of prison and "dies", etc. furthermore, since Thor now has no way of locating Malekith since he's not going after Jane, in the new timeline Malekith will most likely get the stone and destroy all of reality.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Sept 3, 2019 19:37:05 GMT -5
I get what you are saying, but all Bruce said is that the stone has to return to the MOMENT it disappeared, not the location. For example, removing the Reality Stone from Jane Foster did not endanger that timeline. After all, it gets done in the main timeline as well. Removing it from existing in the timeline while the other Infinity Stones are present is what endangers it. Technically, winking in the exact moment that the stone gets taken to the main timeline is sufficient to prevent the lack of the stone to destabilize the universe in that timeline. The real rub is what he does with the stones upon arriving. Technically, simply showing up and setting the stone on the ground is the minimum required to achieve mission parameters. Knowing a character like Rogers, however, he isn't simply going to do that. Honestly, showing up and hitching a ride to Asgard in each timeline to leave that timeline's stone in Odin's vault isn't the dumbest idea. After all, the Battle of New York need not happen in one timeline if the Space Stone is already off of Earth. That also means the Mind Stone doesn't come to Earth in that timeline as well. The primary problem that arises is whether Odin's death is directly attributable to being stranded on Earth by Loki or not. If it simply was his time, then some of those stones in those timelines will be exposed due to Hela's emergence. no, they have to be returned to the same place, otherwise the branched timelines still happen. if the Reality Stone isn't returned to Jane Foster and instead just dropped off on some random planet, it still becomes an alternate timeline. since Malekith can sense the Reality Stone, if Jane doesn't have it he has no reason to go to Asgard, which means the battle doesn't happen, so Friga isn't killed trying to protect Jane, and Loki isn't broken out of prison and "dies", etc. furthermore, since Thor now has no way of locating Malekith since he's not going after Jane, in the new timeline Malekith will most likely get the stone and destroy all of reality. The 2014 timeline is somewhat screwed regardless of where the Power and Soul Stones end up. If Cap puts the Power Stone back on Morag the same instant that it left, Quill is still taking his Rhodey-induced nap and we know that Korath showed up minutes after he was supposed to find it. In that timeline Korath probably nabs it before Quill wakes up and takes it to Ronan, Yondu may or may not kill Quill for trying to screw him over, Drax rots in prison, and Rocket and Groot likely die when Ronan wipes out Xandar. Even if Quill wakes up in time and gets to the Power Stone before Korath, Gamora no longer resides in that timeline, so Rocket and Groot likely have no issues bagging Quill and delivering him to Yondu.
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