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Post by Mister Pigwell on May 27, 2019 0:33:20 GMT -5
The entirety of AEW's existence is the result of a series of butterfly effects caused by ridiculously stupid decisions made by Vince McMahon. One day someone will chart them all because it's pretty wild to think about. Well, right now it’s “BUTT INJECTIONS, DAMMIT” and “KEEP PLAYING THIS ‘60s BATMAN VILLAIN GIMMICK” as the roots of the matter. For the Mox and Cody sides, yeah. There's also the Jericho events which are equally amusing. And outside of Vince, there's Meltz making that for funsies bet with the Bucks. The roads that led here are wild.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2019 0:33:48 GMT -5
The butterfly effect of scripting butt injections and riffing on your best mate’s cancer into a promo is already astounding. Ripples that could turn into tidal waves down the line. I mean, yeah, we can talk about the Lesnar match going sour or the Austin interview or some of the comedy stuff or being the left behind Shield guy, but there was never any indication he was unhappy until that heel run late last year. That’s what did things in. The entirety of AEW's existence is the result of a series of butterfly effects caused by ridiculously stupid decisions made by Vince McMahon. One day someone will chart them all because it's pretty wild to think about. That might be the greatest documentary in wrestling history given it'll likely compile WWE's missteps from the ending of WCW to wherever it is when it's made. Just imagine the Lesnar portion. "-and I saw Mox ask Lesnar to work and Lesnar just laughed in his face and said 'nah, this is what we're gonna do' and it was like a bomb had went off in front of everyone. Mox's face was incredulous." - Random guy backstage "I was incredulous." - Moxley
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on May 27, 2019 0:42:13 GMT -5
The entirety of AEW's existence is the result of a series of butterfly effects caused by ridiculously stupid decisions made by Vince McMahon. One day someone will chart them all because it's pretty wild to think about. That might be the greatest documentary in wrestling history given it'll likely compile WWE's missteps from the ending of WCW to wherever it is when it's made. Just imagine the Lesnar portion. "-and I saw Mox ask Lesnar to work and Lesnar just laughed in his face and said 'nah, this is what we're gonna do' and it was like a bomb had went off in front of everyone. Mox's face was incredulous." - Random guy backstage "I was incredulous." - Moxley And that random guy backstage was AEW road agent Kevin Steen, like.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2019 0:46:35 GMT -5
That might be the greatest documentary in wrestling history given it'll likely compile WWE's missteps from the ending of WCW to wherever it is when it's made. Just imagine the Lesnar portion. "-and I saw Mox ask Lesnar to work and Lesnar just laughed in his face and said 'nah, this is what we're gonna do' and it was like a bomb had went off in front of everyone. Mox's face was incredulous." - Random guy backstage "I was incredulous." - Moxley And that random guy backstage was AEW road agent Kevin Steen, like. Oh you know he wishes he didn't sign that 5 year contract last year lol. He's going to have a lot of info when the time comes. "I asked Mox how he was feeling after the match and he looked me in the eyes and said -" - Steen "I said "f*** Brock man, just f*** that part-time-" - Moxley "-bitch who can't even talk on the-" - Steen "-mic without-" - Moxley "-his puppet master Heyman." - Heyman
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Heartbreaker
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Post by Heartbreaker on May 27, 2019 0:47:55 GMT -5
He gets creative freedom and brand new opportunities without the brutal WWE schedule. So he has plenty of time to spend with his pet raccoons.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on May 27, 2019 0:48:15 GMT -5
I wonder... what do you guys think the final straw for Ambrose was? I’d guess how they handled the heel turn. But that time they used Roman’s real life cancer to get heat wouldn’t surprise me. Dunno the dude so I dunno his limits, but for me the Roman shit woulda been it. Mind you the downhill momentum started with the Brock match for me. I wouldn't be shocked if it came down to when he almost died from an infection, and having Roman's leukemia in that same time period not long after. Might have been a reminder that they're all mortal, and if he's going to do something that's his, it has to be right now.
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Post by Mozenrath on May 27, 2019 0:49:09 GMT -5
He gets creative freedom and brand new opportunities without the brutal WWE schedule. So he has plenty of time to spend with his pet raccoons. Pets, brothers in arms, same diff.
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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on May 27, 2019 0:49:42 GMT -5
Well, right now it’s “BUTT INJECTIONS, DAMMIT” and “KEEP PLAYING THIS ‘60s BATMAN VILLAIN GIMMICK” as the roots of the matter. For the Mox and Cody sides, yeah. There's also the Jericho events which are equally amusing. And outside of Vince, there's Meltz making that for funsies bet with the Bucks. The roads that led here are wild. Don't forget the most vital coincidence of them all. Cody, Matt Jackson, Nick Jackson, Hangman Adam Page, and Kenny Omega's contracts with ROH/New Japan were up within a few months span. If they had their deals (involving two separate promotions based in different countries) up in different years, this would not have been possible, and the fact that they happened to be placed in the same faction is what allowed them to bond in the first place, allowing for this pact between the Elite to be formed. The odds of something like that ever happening again in an era of multi-year guaranteed contracts are astronomical.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on May 27, 2019 0:58:36 GMT -5
And that random guy backstage was AEW road agent Kevin Steen, like. Oh you know he wishes he didn't sign that 5 year contract last year lol. He's going to have a lot of info when the time comes. "I asked Mox how he was feeling after the match and he looked me in the eyes and said -" - Steen "I said "f*** Brock man, just f*** that part-time-" - Moxley "-bitch who can't even talk on the-" - Steen "-mic without-" - Moxley "-his puppet master Heyman." - Heyman “Unfortunately, President Lesnar was unavailable for comment as he was on a diplomatic visit to the forests of Saskatchewan.”
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on May 27, 2019 1:45:27 GMT -5
And let's keep this going man... Moxley/Omega Moxley in NJPW. Moxley cutting killer promos. This guy is LIVING HIS BEST LIFE!!! HE AIN'T GOING BACK AND FORTH WITH YOU BITCHES!!! That's what damn near everyone who doesn't have kids in WWE would probably love right now. That's amazing. He legit pulled the best deal possible and we don't even know how many 0s on his contract yet. f***, how do you squander a guy like that? Just how? And that's the thing, no one is saying he had a shit run. He had a good run. But look at that promo. That's a dude that has literally all the tools to be your franchise. And they let the guy slip through their fingers. If you want a comparison, Stunning Steve Austin had a pretty quality WCW career. But he coulda been more. They didn't recognize it and they let him go and he proved just what he was capable of. Do I think Moxley is going to be 98 Austin? Of course not, television and how we take in all of media has changed way too much for that. But they had a guy who could have been great and settled with making him really good. It's like in racing when they pit governors on engines so they can only hit a certain speed. Jon Moxley is hitting on all cylinders. I actually that last bit is pretty clever--if he wants to steal it, he's welcome to it haha.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2019 2:18:54 GMT -5
And let's keep this going man... Moxley/Omega Moxley in NJPW. Moxley cutting killer promos. This guy is LIVING HIS BEST LIFE!!! HE AIN'T GOING BACK AND FORTH WITH YOU BITCHES!!! That's what damn near everyone who doesn't have kids in WWE would probably love right now. That's amazing. He legit pulled the best deal possible and we don't even know how many 0s on his contract yet. f***, how do you squander a guy like that? Just how? And that's the thing, no one is saying he had a shit run. He had a good run. But look at that promo. That's a dude that has literally all the tools to be your franchise. And they let the guy slip through their fingers. If you want a comparison, Stunning Steve Austin had a pretty quality WCW career. But he coulda been more. They didn't recognize it and they let him go and he proved just what he was capable of. Do I think Moxley is going to be 98 Austin? Of course not, television and how we take in all of media has changed way too much for that. But they had a guy who could have been great and settled with making him really good. It's like in racing when they pit governors on engines so they can only hit a certain speed. Jon Moxley is hitting on all cylinders. I actually that last bit is pretty clever--if he wants to steal it, he's welcome to it haha.
Exactly lol.
His run wasn't horrible, it was a good run, he's already a 2x Hall of Famer if you look at his credentials but that doesn't mean that's as great as he can be. Yeah, I can make 100k a year but why not 200k? He felt he could do more so it's up to him as a person to decide if he could go for that and we see that he can. While I agree, he won't be 98 Austin but he's on track of being one of AEW's franchise players for the next decade if it all works out well for him and they needed one of the cornerstones. They needed that "younger bridge" as they already had the "older bridge" aka Jericho. The more the better.
This whole thing is so amazing lol.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2019 2:59:00 GMT -5
Obviously they would've had to change some things booking wise in the months leading up to it, but God, I really wish it'd been Ambrose vs. HHH at WM 32 with Ambrose going over, especially with Ambrose in full on Moxley mode. Given Moxley's life story and how much people liked their match at Roadblock, it would've been a million times better than HHH vs. Roman, who could've faced Brock again or something.
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Post by Mozenrath on May 27, 2019 3:19:15 GMT -5
More I think about this, the more I wonder if there's anything WWE could have done to keep him. Yeah, they definitely botched the heel turn, but beyond that, the company is too big, too many moving parts, too much that has to change for any kind of course correction, etc, for a guy like Jon. They could not give him full freedom because the company just does not work that way, and similarly, they couldn't give him freedom. It's like trying to keep a dolphin in Sea World. No matter how nice the tank could be, it's not going to be the proper environment for Moxley, and it can't keep him happy forever. Dude's got to have the freedom to do his own thing.
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Post by schma on May 27, 2019 3:32:39 GMT -5
I suspect that when he came back from injury looking like a killer ready to take everyone by storm and was back in the shield as the third wheel within a few weeks may have started the ball rolling. The heel turn probably kicked it into full gear.
It reminds me of an interview Daniel Bryan gave where he did some test and supposedly according to this test he had less ambition than anyone who'd ever taken it in WWE. He made the point that his goals were not the traditional money goals but more putting on amazing shows and matches. They couldn't really understand that mindset, it was foreign to them that someone could be more concerned with putting on fantastic matches than their place on the card or the money they were making. I imagine a lot of those folks are still there and in this case, many of them couldn't understand why Dean wasn't happy with what he had. It was a foreign mindset to them.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2019 5:13:51 GMT -5
I wonder... what do you guys think the final straw for Ambrose was? I’d guess how they handled the heel turn. But that time they used Roman’s real life cancer to get heat wouldn’t surprise me. Dude don’t be a mark This is all a work to make Ambroses return even MORE suprising ........Why is everyone looking at me funny?
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Post by Hobby Drifter on May 27, 2019 9:37:47 GMT -5
I've been on this kick for years, but I'm gonna say it again. Vince McMahon is not a genius. He's not even a good businessman. And he is a terrible wrestling promoter. Every single bit of success he has had in life is in spite of himself. It is only through sheer blind luck that he survived in any kind of business. He utterly destroyed the territory system by not following the rules that everybody agreed to follow in the interest of, you know, keeping the system alive. The ONE time he faced any real competition, he nearly went under in the span of, like, 2 years because the competition actually did interesting things.
Vince had to be dragged, kicking and screaming, to allow the Attitude Era to happen and even then it was only because he had no other choice.
WCW went under because of their own stupidity, not because of anything that Vince came up with. Before they went under, WCW did all sorts of stuff that WWE never forgave them for. Breathing new life into stale acts. Offering guaranteed money to their talent. NOT booking people on schedules that would basically guarantee their top names would burn out in short order.
For years, Vince has been the only game in town. And he has lived large because wrestling fans either had to put up with his product or go to actual expense and effort to watch other stuff. Despite the fact that most longtime fans agree that WWE has been "meh" for over a decade. And it all comes down to the fact that THE guy at the top of the company is complete loon. Not without reason, but Vince McMahon is as far removed from this customers as should be humanly possible. He doesn't get what his fans want because he doesn't understand people in general and living inside his own little bubble for 20 years has not helped that one little bit.
Even if he isn't worried about AEW, everybody else around him should be. While it is another company owned by a billionaire, it's also being run by people who DO understand the wrestling business and the people it attracts. They've seen the mistakes McMahon, Jarrett, and others have made. In many cases, they've suffered for those mistakes themselves. As long as they don't utterly collapse under the weight of a dozen bizarre self-indulgences or take on WWE head-to-head too soon, AEW will attract WWE's fans *in droves* over the next few years.
And I don't think that it's going to be a case of every unhappy WWE "independent contractor" jumping ship to the competition, I absolutely can see AEW being the tide that raises other ships and brings more attention to the wrestling industry outside of WWE. So maybe every angry WWE personality doesn't go to AEW, but maybe they go to NJPW, ROH, or just bounce about the indy promotions.
Jon Moxley will probably be looked at as the modern Chris Jericho (one of the first "names" to jump to the competition) if all goes well. And speaking of Jericho, he was the ORIGINAL Chris Jericho. The guy who said, "Hey. Even if I'm making decent money here, I'm not happy and I don't think I'm ever gonna be creatively fulfilled, so I'm gonna take a chance elsewhere". Getting THAT guy (first Undisputed Champ, first WCW guy to "make it", and all the symbolism) as their first "big get" speaks wonders for AEW.
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Post by realist on May 27, 2019 9:39:16 GMT -5
You know what's interesting? Dean Ambrose was originally pencilled in for the Wrestlemania 35 main event against Roman Reigns for the Universal Title before Roman had to give up the title due to his illness. I wonder if that match had happened, if he would have been happy in WWE or if the lack of creative freedom was just too much for him.
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Post by Rican on May 27, 2019 10:00:49 GMT -5
When he came back from the injury with the buzz cut looking jacked I was like “holy shit, there’s your top guy”. They’re nuts for going down the road they did with him. Hope him and AEW are very successful together.
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Post by MrElijah on May 27, 2019 10:45:15 GMT -5
For the Mox and Cody sides, yeah. There's also the Jericho events which are equally amusing. And outside of Vince, there's Meltz making that for funsies bet with the Bucks. The roads that led here are wild. Don't forget the most vital coincidence of them all. Cody, Matt Jackson, Nick Jackson, Hangman Adam Page, and Kenny Omega's contracts with ROH/New Japan were up within a few months span. If they had their deals (involving two separate promotions based in different countries) up in different years, this would not have been possible, and the fact that they happened to be placed in the same faction is what allowed them to bond in the first place, allowing for this pact between the Elite to be formed. The odds of something like that ever happening again in an era of multi-year guaranteed contracts are astronomical. And in talking about the Bucks: what if they never went to TNA and met Kazuchika Okada? AKA the guy that put a word in for them with the NJPW brass?
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Post by kingoftheindies on May 27, 2019 10:51:51 GMT -5
More I think about this, the more I wonder if there's anything WWE could have done to keep him. Yeah, they definitely botched the heel turn, but beyond that, the company is too big, too many moving parts, too much that has to change for any kind of course correction, etc, for a guy like Jon. They could not give him full freedom because the company just does not work that way, and similarly, they couldn't give him freedom. It's like trying to keep a dolphin in Sea World. No matter how nice the tank could be, it's not going to be the proper environment for Moxley, and it can't keep him happy forever. Dude's got to have the freedom to do his own thing. From the rumors I have heard, WWE just didnt have many ideas for Mox. He was excited to come back and do the tag team with Seth because they hadn't really done that. But the plan was basically for him to turn heel and fight Seth, then fight Roman as a heel, and then do the Shield again and while he is friends with those guys he was tired of doing the same thing over and over. As for his run in WWE. It was great and from all accounts he is proud of his run and is grateful for it... but he just didnt like the idea of falling back into status quo. Unless they were able to offer him a program he had never done before that he could sink his teeth into creatively I dont think he was ever going to stay... because WWE would not give him full freedom
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