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Post by ThankGodForSidJustice on Aug 21, 2019 16:49:32 GMT -5
I’d like to see the argument as to how she isn’t. Just on TV win/loss records this year alone, it almost borders on wilful ignorance... Bliss: 11-9-0 Flair: 10-8-1 Lynch: 23-3-0 Yeah, she’s had one clean loss in the last calendar year (Asuka at the Rumble) and that got erased by Becky winning the Rumble on one leg and Asuka disappearing from TV for weeks. If anything, the paranoia about Charlotte/Alexa helped WWE get away with the monster push they gave Becky. Yeah I would include Becky in the Golden Girls club too at this point. She along with Charlotte and Alexa are clearly the only women they give a crap about. I think the reason why people don't complain about her preferential booking as much as the other two is the fact that she's only really got top girl booking for about a year now after about three years of being underutilized. It's far different from Charlotte and Alexa who have always been pushed and booked well and have both been in title picture their entire main roster careers which are now on four and three years respectively. At least with Becky it's still fresh at this point and also I think there's a lot of people (myself included) that feel that her OP booking is deserved after she got the shaft for so long and wasn't booked as well as she should've been.
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Post by Dub H on Aug 21, 2019 16:58:21 GMT -5
Yeah, she’s had one clean loss in the last calendar year (Asuka at the Rumble) and that got erased by Becky winning the Rumble on one leg and Asuka disappearing from TV for weeks. If anything, the paranoia about Charlotte/Alexa helped WWE get away with the monster push they gave Becky. Yeah I would include Becky in the Golden Girls club too at this point. She along with Charlotte and Alexa are clearly the only women they give a crap about. I think the reason why people don't complain about her preferential booking as much as the other two is the fact that she's only really got top girl booking for about a year now after about three years of being underutilized. It's far different from Charlotte and Alexa who have always been pushed and booked well and have both been in title picture their entire main roster careers which are now on four and three years respectively. At least with Becky it's still fresh at this point and also I think there's a lot of people (myself included) that feel that her OP booking is deserved after she got the shaft for so long and wasn't booked as well as she should've been. Plus OP booking is more forgiven when the person is actually that over
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Post by Pushed to the Moon on Aug 21, 2019 17:27:34 GMT -5
WWE need to sign Tessa Blanchard before AEW snag her.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 17:38:21 GMT -5
The issue there is there’s no “women’s midcard” to drop down to where she’d still get featured enough to showcase her talent without copping all the shit for holding a belt. It’s literally only champions, their contenders and people used to heat up the people in the first two categories. If you’re not any of those, you’re just off of TV altogether. Like it was mentioned earlier in the thread, Flair was just off of TV for over a month with no storyline explanation because they didn’t have the spare time for a non-title angle with her until before SummerSlam (which then made the actual title match with Bayley and Moon seem like the filler), but didn’t want her in the heater category. I was gonna' argue that a women's midcard title might be necessary, then remembered that the Women's Tag Titles exist and should be serving that exact purpose, instead of being glorified paperweights.
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Post by Mozenrath on Aug 21, 2019 17:51:58 GMT -5
For me personally Charlotte would have to be out of the title picture for at least a year for me to even begin approaching her matches with enthusiasm again. Win/loss record aside, her unending presence in the title scene in an albatross around the neck of every other wrestler; it's the same exact problem Cena, Batista, and HHH had in years prior. The issue there is there’s no “women’s midcard” to drop down to where she’d still get featured enough to showcase her talent without copping all the shit for holding a belt. It’s literally only champions, their contenders and people used to heat up the people in the first two categories. If you’re not any of those, you’re just off of TV altogether. Like it was mentioned earlier in the thread, Flair was just off of TV for over a month with no storyline explanation because they didn’t have the spare time for a non-title angle with her until before SummerSlam (which then made the actual title match with Bayley and Moon seem like the filler), but didn’t want her in the heater category. The women's tag scene could be a midcard for them, if they actually TRIED with it. So far, though, ehhh.
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Post by Dub H on Aug 21, 2019 17:54:45 GMT -5
The issue there is there’s no “women’s midcard” to drop down to where she’d still get featured enough to showcase her talent without copping all the shit for holding a belt. It’s literally only champions, their contenders and people used to heat up the people in the first two categories. If you’re not any of those, you’re just off of TV altogether. Like it was mentioned earlier in the thread, Flair was just off of TV for over a month with no storyline explanation because they didn’t have the spare time for a non-title angle with her until before SummerSlam (which then made the actual title match with Bayley and Moon seem like the filler), but didn’t want her in the heater category. The women's tag scene could be a midcard for them, if they actually TRIED with it. So far, though, ehhh. "ugh,trying is hard"
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Aug 21, 2019 17:56:20 GMT -5
The issue there is there’s no “women’s midcard” to drop down to where she’d still get featured enough to showcase her talent without copping all the shit for holding a belt. It’s literally only champions, their contenders and people used to heat up the people in the first two categories. If you’re not any of those, you’re just off of TV altogether. Like it was mentioned earlier in the thread, Flair was just off of TV for over a month with no storyline explanation because they didn’t have the spare time for a non-title angle with her until before SummerSlam (which then made the actual title match with Bayley and Moon seem like the filler), but didn’t want her in the heater category. The women's tag scene could be a midcard for them, if they actually TRIED with it. So far, though, ehhh. I think that falls under the same trappings that happens with the men sometimes where they’ll be like “We need the World Champion to look good going into his title defense, so let’s have him beat the IC/US/Tag Champion, they’re credible opponents after all” without any consideration for what does to the perception of those midcard champions. (That said, I doubt there’d be much complaining if they jobbed out Bliss repeatedly to Lynch or Bayley, given her reputation)
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Post by Pushed to the Moon on Aug 21, 2019 17:57:50 GMT -5
The issue there is there’s no “women’s midcard” to drop down to where she’d still get featured enough to showcase her talent without copping all the shit for holding a belt. It’s literally only champions, their contenders and people used to heat up the people in the first two categories. If you’re not any of those, you’re just off of TV altogether. Like it was mentioned earlier in the thread, Flair was just off of TV for over a month with no storyline explanation because they didn’t have the spare time for a non-title angle with her until before SummerSlam (which then made the actual title match with Bayley and Moon seem like the filler), but didn’t want her in the heater category. I was gonna' argue that a women's midcard title might be necessary, then remembered that the Women's Tag Titles exist and should be serving that exact purpose, instead of being glorified paperweights. Yeah titles aren't the answer. The problem is partly they don't have enough top level women and partly they're incapable of writing stories other than wanting the title. They need a wrestling version of that Bechdel Test for women in movies (two women have to talk to each other about something other than a man) except replace "man" with "title".
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Post by trollrogue on Aug 21, 2019 20:30:46 GMT -5
I think in all of this I'm curious how they'll play Ember Moon after this. Charlotte pretty much buried her on A Moment of Bliss as a non-contender which necessitated a 'real' main eventer in Charlotte Flair to step in and challenge Bayley (but kayfabe Summerslam is a bigger show than Night of Champions, so Moon theoretically had a bigger/higher-card ppv match for the SDLive title than Charlotte will at NoC).
Ember never won the NXT title either, but she would be perfect for a midcard title ala Velveteen Dream's reign (before he eventually wins the NXT World title on USA Network). Now's as good a time as any to put out a female midcard title, and NoC would be the perfect ppv to do it. It really would be so easy to make a "Queen of the Ring" tourney for something like that to end at NoC
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Post by Shark on Aug 21, 2019 21:03:06 GMT -5
I think in all of this I'm curious how they'll play Ember Moon after this. Charlotte pretty much buried her on A Moment of Bliss as a non-contender which necessitated a 'real' main eventer in Charlotte Flair to step in and challenge Bayley (but kayfabe Summerslam is a bigger show than Night of Champions, so Moon theoretically had a bigger/higher-card ppv match for the SDLive title than Charlotte will at NoC). Ember never won the NXT title either, but she would be perfect for a midcard title ala Velveteen Dream's reign (before he eventually wins the NXT World title on USA Network). Now's as good a time as any to put out a female midcard title, and NoC would be the perfect ppv to do it. It really would be so easy to make a "Queen of the Ring" tourney for something like that to end at NoC Ember won the NXT title. She won it in a 4 way against Peyton, Nikki, and Kairi after Askua vacated it. She held it until the Mania Takeover when she lost to Shayna
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Post by theironyuppie on Aug 21, 2019 21:23:01 GMT -5
Yeah, she’s had one clean loss in the last calendar year (Asuka at the Rumble) and that got erased by Becky winning the Rumble on one leg and Asuka disappearing from TV for weeks. If anything, the paranoia about Charlotte/Alexa helped WWE get away with the monster push they gave Becky. Yeah I would include Becky in the Golden Girls club too at this point. She along with Charlotte and Alexa are clearly the only women they give a crap about. I think the reason why people don't complain about her preferential booking as much as the other two is the fact that she's only really got top girl booking for about a year now after about three years of being underutilized. It's far different from Charlotte and Alexa who have always been pushed and booked well and have both been in title picture their entire main roster careers which are now on four and three years respectively. At least with Becky it's still fresh at this point and also I think there's a lot of people (myself included) that feel that her OP booking is deserved after she got the shaft for so long and wasn't booked as well as she should've been. I see it as a breadth vs depth thing. Charlotte and Alexa have been pushed longer but never nearly as hard as Becky has since May last year. Even during their title runs they’d often lose on TV, while Becky never loses meaningfully and has had everything from legends putting her over (that Cena segment back in December) to various other stars (from the New Day to Road Dogg) being shown on-screen wearing Becky shirts. Even the turn at Summerslam had Becky beat every single heel (and Charlotte) clean on SDL beforehand. And after all, it’s a lot easier having a “I back up everything I say” gimmick if you’re booked so strong as to back up everything you say.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 21:29:32 GMT -5
Yeah, she’s had one clean loss in the last calendar year (Asuka at the Rumble) and that got erased by Becky winning the Rumble on one leg and Asuka disappearing from TV for weeks. If anything, the paranoia about Charlotte/Alexa helped WWE get away with the monster push they gave Becky. Yeah I would include Becky in the Golden Girls club too at this point. She along with Charlotte and Alexa are clearly the only women they give a crap about. I think the reason why people don't complain about her preferential booking as much as the other two is the fact that she's only really got top girl booking for about a year now after about three years of being underutilized. It's far different from Charlotte and Alexa who have always been pushed and booked well and have both been in title picture their entire main roster careers which are now on four and three years respectively. At least with Becky it's still fresh at this point and also I think there's a lot of people (myself included) that feel that her OP booking is deserved after she got the shaft for so long and wasn't booked as well as she should've been. I'd add Carmella as well. It may sound weird because she's only had the one title reign, but it seems like they always find something for her to do even though she can't get over on her own at all (and I like her).
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Post by Gus Richlen Was Wrong on Aug 21, 2019 22:06:16 GMT -5
Honestly, at this point I'm over Bayley as champion. She does nothing for me and her current face stuff feels flat.
Would I like someone new getting a title run? Sure. But as it stands I'll take Charlotte as champ.
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Post by schma on Aug 21, 2019 23:22:07 GMT -5
It's kinda nutty that all three women's divisions are experiencing the same problems to a degree. Challengers are not being built up. Ember had a match and then Bayley was like hey here's a championship opportunity. Lacey waved a bunch and then spent five months feuding with Becky and constantly losing while the Raw Roster was MIA apart from Alexa and Nikki who were in a feud on Smackdown. The tag titles straight up disappeared after WM with established teams getting barely any screen time as a result.
Charlotte right now is the default because she's always been presented as a contender and a champion. I knew as soon as she finished with Trish she'd be in the title scene. She's fantastic but for most of the past few years she has either had the title or been involved in a title program unless she was off tv. Summerslam broke the pattern but I knew that was just a short term blip and here we are.
A lot of the answers to the issues of Charlotte's endless title opportunities, Becky's running roughshod over everyone and the other stuff is use the talents you have. The division is not large so why are 80% of them getting next to no screen time and zero time to build a character? Hell Becky could do a John Cena U.S. open type thing where every few weeks one of the women gets a chance at her. Have Becky struggle with some of them. Even that would do more to build up the roster than the absolute nothing they're doing right now.
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Post by Sparkybob on Aug 21, 2019 23:26:38 GMT -5
To the above they did that with Ronda when she fought random women on Raw and it did ok.
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Post by schma on Aug 21, 2019 23:41:08 GMT -5
To the above they did that with Ronda when she fought random women on Raw and it did ok. Yeah, I thought it was well done. No one expected those people to actually go over Ronda but it highlighted them. That was also kinda in my head when I wrote this but I'd just gotten off work.
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Post by ThankGodForSidJustice on Aug 21, 2019 23:46:34 GMT -5
Yeah I would include Becky in the Golden Girls club too at this point. She along with Charlotte and Alexa are clearly the only women they give a crap about. I think the reason why people don't complain about her preferential booking as much as the other two is the fact that she's only really got top girl booking for about a year now after about three years of being underutilized. It's far different from Charlotte and Alexa who have always been pushed and booked well and have both been in title picture their entire main roster careers which are now on four and three years respectively. At least with Becky it's still fresh at this point and also I think there's a lot of people (myself included) that feel that her OP booking is deserved after she got the shaft for so long and wasn't booked as well as she should've been. I see it as a breadth vs depth thing. Charlotte and Alexa have been pushed longer but never nearly as hard as Becky has since May last year. Even during their title runs they’d often lose on TV, while Becky never loses meaningfully and has had everything from legends putting her over (that Cena segment back in December) to various other stars (from the New Day to Road Dogg) being shown on-screen wearing Becky shirts. Even the turn at Summerslam had Becky beat every single heel (and Charlotte) clean on SDL beforehand. And after all, it’s a lot easier having a “I back up everything I say” gimmick if you’re booked so strong as to back up everything you say. Charlotte and Alexa do lose from time to time on TV where they eat a pin in a tag match or whatever to build up a face challenger but the difference is both have been smarmy heel characters for either all of their career or most of it so they can afford to take losses especially when more times then not they're going over in the PPV match which makes any TV losses they meaningless. During her face runs Charlotte was protected more and rarely lost on TV other then a few to Natalya including one going into the Asuka which was strange. During her last face run they would use Becky and Naomi as fodder for heels they were building up to challenge her instead of the usual champion loses non title match crap they usually do. Becky with her being a face and the persona she has can't afford to lose much or she'll just end up coming like a delusional idiot who runs her mouth about how great she is but can't back it up which obviously would be a terrible babyface character.
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Post by ThankGodForSidJustice on Aug 22, 2019 0:12:59 GMT -5
Yeah I would include Becky in the Golden Girls club too at this point. She along with Charlotte and Alexa are clearly the only women they give a crap about. I think the reason why people don't complain about her preferential booking as much as the other two is the fact that she's only really got top girl booking for about a year now after about three years of being underutilized. It's far different from Charlotte and Alexa who have always been pushed and booked well and have both been in title picture their entire main roster careers which are now on four and three years respectively. At least with Becky it's still fresh at this point and also I think there's a lot of people (myself included) that feel that her OP booking is deserved after she got the shaft for so long and wasn't booked as well as she should've been. I'd add Carmella as well. It may sound weird because she's only had the one title reign, but it seems like they always find something for her to do even though she can't get over on her own at all (and I like her). About a year ago when she was having her title reign I would agree but I don't know if they really value her much that more. They like her (both HHH and Vince have been reported to be backers of her) but it's more in a good team player who does the best with what she's given way. I don't think see her as a big draw like Charlotte/Alexa/Becky where she always has to high on the card and in the title picture. I mean she has the R-Truth thing which is always featured but as a credible women's wrestler she's been downplayed quite a bit especially compared to where she was last year. I can't even remember when's the last time she won a match? It might be the Wrestlemania battle royal she won which over four months ago at this point. Despite the recent conflict I would say Sasha is actually more a golden girl then Carmella. More title reigns (albeit all short ones), marketed a ton over the years, and Vince's puppet gushing over her all the time on commentary with the "IT"S BOSS TIME" crap that annoys me to no ends. I would say at this point Carmella's more in the Natalya/Naomi tier. Reliable veterans who they like enough that they'll always get a spot in multi women PPV matches like MITB/Survivor Series over the newer women they really don't give a crap about like the Riott Squad or the IIconics but not enough where they're going to be a center piece of a division on either brand like Charlotte, Becky, and Alexa.
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Aug 22, 2019 7:07:49 GMT -5
Lord. I used to defend Charlotte because she’s super talented and I thought people treated her too harshly, but there are few things in wrestling I want to see less than Charlotte in another World Title feud/with the belt again. She’s like Batista back in the day. Always lurking and ready to get a PPV title match. And that’s really the root issue here. Flair is legitimately one of the best women talents they have in-ring wise, in the prime of her career, but they’ve given her so much already it leaves her in this weird area where it’s like hardly anyone wants her at the level she SHOULD be at, but she’s too good to be lower than it, if that makes sense. Yeah, this is spot on. When you think about it, the only thing Charlotte hasn't done is win the Rumble. They've spent their wad on her already to the point where they kinda have no choice unless they decided to give her an extended blood feud away from the title....but they can't do *that* because nobody else has been built to resemble a credible threat to her.
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Post by Dub H on Aug 22, 2019 7:09:56 GMT -5
And that’s really the root issue here. Flair is legitimately one of the best women talents they have in-ring wise, in the prime of her career, but they’ve given her so much already it leaves her in this weird area where it’s like hardly anyone wants her at the level she SHOULD be at, but she’s too good to be lower than it, if that makes sense. Yeah, this is spot on. When you think about it, the only thing Charlotte hasn't done is win the Rumble. They've spent their wad on her already to the point where they kinda have no choice unless they decided to give her an extended blood feud away from the title....but they can't do *that* because nobody else has been built to resemble a credible threat to her. And i'm 99% sure she wins it this year. Unless againthere is a bigger overachieving storyline for the rumble.
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