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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2019 18:49:27 GMT -5
You're misunderstanding me. I'm not talking about if Kofi won and became a main eventer, I'm talking about his overall level as a wrestler, the crowd reception, himself as a whole. This isn't about where your position is on the card. You're making it seem like I'm saying "well since Bryan elevated Kofi he's in the main event now so that shows Bryan elevates Kofi" when that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying is Kofi himself had a shift from the midcarder Kofi to main event Kofi with the crowd and how he's perceived. You could hear it with the cheers, you could hear it in how he was putting so much of himself into his programming whether it was him winning or losing. Kofi's lost and got beaten multiple times before he became champion but the feud and Bryan were so great at what was going on that it didn't matter and Kofi kept being elevated. Regardless of the shenanigans on SDL, regardless of Bryan's comments, regardless of the losses and switches, regardless it kept elevating Kofi to that next level even when he got those Ls. These others just take those Ls and the balloon deflates because the momentum isn't sustained. Styles is another example because, like I've been saying, Styles not only gave these stars some of their best matches but even when they lost against Styles they came out better than prior. Jinder for example, he had his best match ever with Styles and then was inserted in the US Title picture where everyone said he felt like he belonged and understood things there more than the main event picture. Jinder's style sort of changed and he just sort of "clicked", all because of the Styles feud. Owens, I've been saying that KO's been bad ever since that Universal Title run so Styles didn't do anything there. Rusev is the perfect example of someone who was that dude when he was going against Styles and looked better in that match and coming out of that match due to that feud but that's been Rusev's MO since he's always been able to make anything great. I can't contribute that to him. Joe, I was the guy who started the "Joe is a bitch" thing and yet I was saying he was doing some of his best work with Styles and even after that match anytime Joe had an opportunity whether it was against a champion, Reigns, KOTR, no matter what Joe's had momentum and didn't look somehow worse. Crowd still behind him, still cutting dope promos, Joe's got that one. Now to everyone else, - Asuka: The Becky win didn't help her as she was featured less on the program, didn't get any increase in cheers and she had no challengers. She was seen as more of a joke given she actually lost matches at that point and given who was getting wins on her. She was far more highlighted and cheered prior to becoming champion. I mean she literally was seen less on tv and people forgot she was champion. No, she was not elevated with the Becky win. - Lacey: You mean the same Lacey who no one cared about after the match? You literally just said that no one cared about her other than the Becky match, you're proving my point that the Becky feud didn't help her keep momentum. - Sasha: There's a reason this thread was made. Becky's OP. You saying that Becky elevates her opponents is the same as you saying that Cena during his run elevated everyone he went against and beat no matter who they were because they're both doing the same thing from a booking perspective. You honestly can't believe that. You know the response Cena got with him winning all the time and being Super Cena even though the fans liked those matches. Jinder was WWE champion for 6 months and main eventing PPV's. His first PPV after the Styles feud was Royal Rumble. He was treated like a random midcarder and gone in less than 5 minutes to no fanfare. Joe lost 4 straight PPVs to Styles. The first PPV after the Styles feud was Survivor Series. He was literally the first person eliminated. After 35 seconds! How can you honestly say they weren't in a worse position? If Becky beat Sasha at COC, beat her again to end the feud at HIAC and then Sasha's first match afterwards was her being beaten in a comedy jobber like fashion I guarantee you wouldn't have the same energy and think she's doing fine. You'd probably be saying she's buried. Just out of interest, you said Charlotte was good at elevating her opponents. What about Asuka losing to her then having to smile and shake her hand after the match then a year later taking her title off her with no build? Asuka was the strongest booked woman on the roster then after Charlotte beat her she was regularly losing to Carmella and the Iconics. Then she was rebuilt with wins over Becky and Charlotte at TLC and RR only to then be thwarted again in March. Charlotte killed her momentum twice in less than a year and Asuka is nowhere near the star she was in 2016-17 or last December-January. What about Sasha getting the pop of her life when she returned at RR in 2016 only to lose to Charlotte at Wrestlemania then lose to her again on another FOUR PPV's that year. Look at Sasha's crowd reactions in early 2016 compared to early 2017. That title hot potato and losing every PPV match she had with Charlotte made her way less over. Do you think this was Charlotte's fault? Because it seems like you have one rule for some people and one rule for others. Like, I want to stress this again because you completely no-sold the fact that Lacey went from someone most people didn't know at the start of the year to a midcarder with a PPV main event under her belt. In what world is that not being elevated. Hell even if she was jobbing every week she'd still be in a better position than she was before feuding with Becky because she literally had NO position before that. And Sasha was floundering in the tag team division and hadn't been champion in 3 years. Now she's in the hottest feud right now and will probably be champion very soon. How has this feud not elevated her? Do you think if she returned to feud with the Riott Squad again she'd have the same momentum she does now? If Becky wins this feud and Sasha goes back to doing nothing like she was for most of 2017-18 then you might have a point but right now she's hotter than she's been in years and I'm willing to bet will end up with the title. You're not understanding what we're talking about here. You're still spending time talking about where these superstars were on the card when I'm not talking about that at all. Like I just said, this isn't about "hey a superstar's in a higher position on the card", we're talking about quality here from a fan perspective, character perspective, in-ring perspective, just overall quality. Like Jinder for example, you're saying "hey he main evented" when the reality is if you ask most people here on this forum they hated Jinder in that position and felt he was better suited in the US Title picture as a midcarder. The whole reason is because Jinder there was better than he was as a main eventer not only from how he was presented but from how he was perceived. He understood it more.
As for everything else you said, I'll speak on the stuff not related to card position because this isn't about card position.
Joe for example. Can you legit tell me that Joe gets no fan response, the crowd doesn't care about Joe, the crowd doesn't get hype when Joe comes out and Joe, any time he's in a title match, are you telling me that there's no chance Joe can win? See, that's what I mean. Joe's been elevated to a level where he's cemented in that spot so no matter what happens with him there's always a response from the crowd, he's always looking like he can potentially win and he's always that guy who you can put in any title picture and you'd think "alright, I can see Joe as a contender." That's what it means. Lacey Evans, for as much as you're mentioning her, isn't that way compared to Joe. She doesn't get the response of a Joe, her in a title feud looks like a filler feud, she doesn't got it like that. Again, this isn't about who's lost (because Kofi's lost and yet he's elevated before he became champion), it's about who can keep that sustained momentum. Lacey doesn't got it.
Charlotte is excellent at elevating her opponents as seen with Becky herself who even said that Charlotte helped her out numerous times, same with the other way around. Becky's entire The Man character came from that Charlotte feud and had she not been beating Charlotte every whichaway she wouldn't be who she is today. See, you're bringing up Asuka as if Charlotte was the issue but the reality is no, Asuka was already on the downhill after that Becky match because of what I just said: Becky didn't elevate Asuka. Asuka was at a low position, she wasn't showing up on tv, she wasn't having opponents and she faced someone who faced Becky and Ronda at WM and almost won, it just made sense. Now, if you want to talk prior to that like say last year's WM where Charlotte beat Asuka then hey it's not Charlotte's fault. Asuka was immediately drafted to SDL and received a mega-pop, she was still over and the crowd was still behind her wanting her to win. That didn't change with Charlotte. What happened next is the Carmella feud where Carmella damaged Asuka because Carmella isn't a good champion. You can't blame it on Charlotte when Asuka's drafted to SDL and the crowd's still behind her wanting to beat the Charlotte.
The whole "Charlotte killed Asuka" thing is some lame fan thing people say because that Fear of the Queen thing fans have about Charlotte is real. Yall think she's Lucifer or something.
Sasha's booking in 2016-2017 with the title and the Charlotte feud is something I've personally talked about numerous times on the board. The hot potatoing of the title nobody liked but what we're not going to do is act like Charlotte is the reason Sasha got less over. She was a 3 time world champion in a matter of 4 months and their matches had the crowd invested. You'd have a point if Sasha's next feud had the fans not behind her as a legit babyface. Sasha immediately got out of the Charlotte feud and entered a Nia Jax feud where the crowd was heavily behind her, where she was the sympathic babyface and where she got mad cheers against a Nia Jax who the crowd was heavily booing.
That's the difference. When you leave a feud with the hotter superstar they can't turn into a Lacey Evans where, like you said, they get no reaction. Sasha kept getting reactions and she kept being a notable superstar. It doesn't happen with anyone Becky's faced because they don't keep the momentum afterwards.
You keep talking about who's placed where on the card and who's champion but that's not what we're talking about when we mention who's elevated and who's not. Just because you've got the world title doesn't mean you're elevated when nobody cares and the same afterwards.
Nobody cares about Lacey Evans.
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Post by Starshine on Sept 16, 2019 18:49:56 GMT -5
Conor McGregor lite in just shit talking everyone tho If that's the case, the division needs a Khabib, someone that is a viable threat, doesn't talk much but dominates its way to the top. Arrogant to some and awkward to others but confident in its skill to smash the opposition and letting the results do the talking. Feel like that was pretty much Asuka. But they have absolutely no interest in doing anything with her.
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Post by "Cane Dewey" Johnson on Sept 16, 2019 19:10:24 GMT -5
At this point, Vince McMahon should have Kane and the Undertaker both pin Becky Lynch in a triple threat match on a pay-per-view in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2019 19:16:41 GMT -5
Jinder was WWE champion for 6 months and main eventing PPV's. His first PPV after the Styles feud was Royal Rumble. He was treated like a random midcarder and gone in less than 5 minutes to no fanfare. Joe lost 4 straight PPVs to Styles. The first PPV after the Styles feud was Survivor Series. He was literally the first person eliminated. After 35 seconds! How can you honestly say they weren't in a worse position? If Becky beat Sasha at COC, beat her again to end the feud at HIAC and then Sasha's first match afterwards was her being beaten in a comedy jobber like fashion I guarantee you wouldn't have the same energy and think she's doing fine. You'd probably be saying she's buried. Just out of interest, you said Charlotte was good at elevating her opponents. What about Asuka losing to her then having to smile and shake her hand after the match then a year later taking her title off her with no build? Asuka was the strongest booked woman on the roster then after Charlotte beat her she was regularly losing to Carmella and the Iconics. Then she was rebuilt with wins over Becky and Charlotte at TLC and RR only to then be thwarted again in March. Charlotte killed her momentum twice in less than a year and Asuka is nowhere near the star she was in 2016-17 or last December-January. What about Sasha getting the pop of her life when she returned at RR in 2016 only to lose to Charlotte at Wrestlemania then lose to her again on another FOUR PPV's that year. Look at Sasha's crowd reactions in early 2016 compared to early 2017. That title hot potato and losing every PPV match she had with Charlotte made her way less over. Do you think this was Charlotte's fault? Because it seems like you have one rule for some people and one rule for others. Like, I want to stress this again because you completely no-sold the fact that Lacey went from someone most people didn't know at the start of the year to a midcarder with a PPV main event under her belt. In what world is that not being elevated. Hell even if she was jobbing every week she'd still be in a better position than she was before feuding with Becky because she literally had NO position before that. And Sasha was floundering in the tag team division and hadn't been champion in 3 years. Now she's in the hottest feud right now and will probably be champion very soon. How has this feud not elevated her? Do you think if she returned to feud with the Riott Squad again she'd have the same momentum she does now? If Becky wins this feud and Sasha goes back to doing nothing like she was for most of 2017-18 then you might have a point but right now she's hotter than she's been in years and I'm willing to bet will end up with the title. You're not understanding what we're talking about here. You're still spending time talking about where these superstars were on the card when I'm not talking about that at all. Like I just said, this isn't about "hey a superstar's in a higher position on the card", we're talking about quality here from a fan perspective, character perspective, in-ring perspective, just overall quality. Like Jinder for example, you're saying "hey he main evented" when the reality is if you ask most people here on this forum they hated Jinder in that position and felt he was better suited in the US Title picture as a midcarder. The whole reason is because Jinder there was better than he was as a main eventer not only from how he was presented but from how he was perceived. He understood it more.
As for everything else you said, I'll speak on the stuff not related to card position because this isn't about card position.
Joe for example. Can you legit tell me that Joe gets no fan response, the crowd doesn't care about Joe, the crowd doesn't get hype when Joe comes out and Joe, any time he's in a title match, are you telling me that there's no chance Joe can win? See, that's what I mean. Joe's been elevated to a level where he's cemented in that spot so no matter what happens with him there's always a response from the crowd, he's always looking like he can potentially win and he's always that guy who you can put in any title picture and you'd think "alright, I can see Joe as a contender." That's what it means. Lacey Evans, for as much as you're mentioning her, isn't that way compared to Joe. She doesn't get the response of a Joe, her in a title feud looks like a filler feud, she doesn't got it like that. Again, this isn't about who's lost (because Kofi's lost and yet he's elevated before he became champion), it's about who can keep that sustained momentum. Lacey doesn't got it.
Charlotte is excellent at elevating her opponents as seen with Becky herself who even said that Charlotte helped her out numerous times, same with the other way around. Becky's entire The Man character came from that Charlotte feud and had she not been beating Charlotte every whichaway she wouldn't be who she is today. See, you're bringing up Asuka as if Charlotte was the issue but the reality is no, Asuka was already on the downhill after that Becky match because of what I just said: Becky didn't elevate Asuka. Asuka was at a low position, she wasn't showing up on tv, she wasn't having opponents and she faced someone who faced Becky and Ronda at WM and almost won, it just made sense. Now, if you want to talk prior to that like say last year's WM where Charlotte beat Asuka then hey it's not Charlotte's fault. Asuka was immediately drafted to SDL and received a mega-pop, she was still over and the crowd was still behind her wanting her to win. That didn't change with Charlotte. What happened next is the Carmella feud where Carmella damaged Asuka because Carmella isn't a good champion. You can't blame it on Charlotte when Asuka's drafted to SDL and the crowd's still behind her wanting to beat the Charlotte.
The whole "Charlotte killed Asuka" thing is some lame fan thing people say because that Fear of the Queen thing fans have about Charlotte is real. Yall think she's Lucifer or something.
Sasha's booking in 2016-2017 with the title and the Charlotte feud is something I've personally talked about numerous times on the board. The hot potatoing of the title nobody liked but what we're not going to do is act like Charlotte is the reason Sasha got less over. She was a 3 time world champion in a matter of 4 months and their matches had the crowd invested. You'd have a point if Sasha's next feud had the fans not behind her as a legit babyface. Sasha immediately got out of the Charlotte feud and entered a Nia Jax feud where the crowd was heavily behind her, where she was the sympathic babyface and where she got mad cheers against a Nia Jax who the crowd was heavily booing.
That's the difference. When you leave a feud with the hotter superstar they can't turn into a Lacey Evans where, like you said, they get no reaction. Sasha kept getting reactions and she kept being a notable superstar. It doesn't happen with anyone Becky's faced because they don't keep the momentum afterwards.
You keep talking about who's placed where on the card and who's champion but that's not what we're talking about when we mention who's elevated and who's not. Just because you've got the world title doesn't mean you're elevated when nobody cares and the same afterwards.
Nobody cares about Lacey Evans.
If that's your definition then fine but to me being elevated means being in a better position and being more over. That's what's it has always meant in wrestling as far as I know. Just because someone's good enough to overcome poor booking and still be over doesn't mean they've been elevated. They're over in spite of the poor booking, not because of it. Joe gets a good upper midcard heel reaction. He had the potential to be the most over person on the roster if he didn't lose every big match. Are you telling me Joe wouldn't have been more over if he actually got to destroy AJ and win the title at some point instead of losing over and over again? And Asuka. You're saying she's still over but it's not even in the same stratosphere of overness as it was prior to Wrestlemania 34. And you say Sasha still got a reaction. Yeah, she got a decent babyface reaction in 2017 but check the tapes, she was WAY more over the year before. How can choking in the biggest matches to the same person over and over and ending up being less over than you were to begin with be considered being elevated?
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Post by theironyuppie on Sept 16, 2019 19:20:23 GMT -5
Jinder was WWE champion for 6 months and main eventing PPV's. His first PPV after the Styles feud was Royal Rumble. He was treated like a random midcarder and gone in less than 5 minutes to no fanfare. Joe lost 4 straight PPVs to Styles. The first PPV after the Styles feud was Survivor Series. He was literally the first person eliminated. After 35 seconds! How can you honestly say they weren't in a worse position? If Becky beat Sasha at COC, beat her again to end the feud at HIAC and then Sasha's first match afterwards was her being beaten in a comedy jobber like fashion I guarantee you wouldn't have the same energy and think she's doing fine. You'd probably be saying she's buried. Just out of interest, you said Charlotte was good at elevating her opponents. What about Asuka losing to her then having to smile and shake her hand after the match then a year later taking her title off her with no build? Asuka was the strongest booked woman on the roster then after Charlotte beat her she was regularly losing to Carmella and the Iconics. Then she was rebuilt with wins over Becky and Charlotte at TLC and RR only to then be thwarted again in March. Charlotte killed her momentum twice in less than a year and Asuka is nowhere near the star she was in 2016-17 or last December-January. What about Sasha getting the pop of her life when she returned at RR in 2016 only to lose to Charlotte at Wrestlemania then lose to her again on another FOUR PPV's that year. Look at Sasha's crowd reactions in early 2016 compared to early 2017. That title hot potato and losing every PPV match she had with Charlotte made her way less over. Do you think this was Charlotte's fault? Because it seems like you have one rule for some people and one rule for others. Like, I want to stress this again because you completely no-sold the fact that Lacey went from someone most people didn't know at the start of the year to a midcarder with a PPV main event under her belt. In what world is that not being elevated. Hell even if she was jobbing every week she'd still be in a better position than she was before feuding with Becky because she literally had NO position before that. And Sasha was floundering in the tag team division and hadn't been champion in 3 years. Now she's in the hottest feud right now and will probably be champion very soon. How has this feud not elevated her? Do you think if she returned to feud with the Riott Squad again she'd have the same momentum she does now? If Becky wins this feud and Sasha goes back to doing nothing like she was for most of 2017-18 then you might have a point but right now she's hotter than she's been in years and I'm willing to bet will end up with the title. You're not understanding what we're talking about here. You're still spending time talking about where these superstars were on the card when I'm not talking about that at all. Like I just said, this isn't about "hey a superstar's in a higher position on the card", we're talking about quality here from a fan perspective, character perspective, in-ring perspective, just overall quality. Like Jinder for example, you're saying "hey he main evented" when the reality is if you ask most people here on this forum they hated Jinder in that position and felt he was better suited in the US Title picture as a midcarder. The whole reason is because Jinder there was better than he was as a main eventer not only from how he was presented but from how he was perceived. He understood it more.
As for everything else you said, I'll speak on the stuff not related to card position because this isn't about card position.
Joe for example. Can you legit tell me that Joe gets no fan response, the crowd doesn't care about Joe, the crowd doesn't get hype when Joe comes out and Joe, any time he's in a title match, are you telling me that there's no chance Joe can win? See, that's what I mean. Joe's been elevated to a level where he's cemented in that spot so no matter what happens with him there's always a response from the crowd, he's always looking like he can potentially win and he's always that guy who you can put in any title picture and you'd think "alright, I can see Joe as a contender." That's what it means. Lacey Evans, for as much as you're mentioning her, isn't that way compared to Joe. She doesn't get the response of a Joe, her in a title feud looks like a filler feud, she doesn't got it like that. Again, this isn't about who's lost (because Kofi's lost and yet he's elevated before he became champion), it's about who can keep that sustained momentum. Lacey doesn't got it.
Charlotte is excellent at elevating her opponents as seen with Becky herself who even said that Charlotte helped her out numerous times, same with the other way around. Becky's entire The Man character came from that Charlotte feud and had she not been beating Charlotte every whichaway she wouldn't be who she is today. See, you're bringing up Asuka as if Charlotte was the issue but the reality is no, Asuka was already on the downhill after that Becky match because of what I just said: Becky didn't elevate Asuka. Asuka was at a low position, she wasn't showing up on tv, she wasn't having opponents and she faced someone who faced Becky and Ronda at WM and almost won, it just made sense. Now, if you want to talk prior to that like say last year's WM where Charlotte beat Asuka then hey it's not Charlotte's fault. Asuka was immediately drafted to SDL and received a mega-pop, she was still over and the crowd was still behind her wanting her to win. That didn't change with Charlotte. What happened next is the Carmella feud where Carmella damaged Asuka because Carmella isn't a good champion. You can't blame it on Charlotte when Asuka's drafted to SDL and the crowd's still behind her wanting to beat the Charlotte.
The whole "Charlotte killed Asuka" thing is some lame fan thing people say because that Fear of the Queen thing fans have about Charlotte is real. Yall think she's Lucifer or something.
Sasha's booking in 2016-2017 with the title and the Charlotte feud is something I've personally talked about numerous times on the board. The hot potatoing of the title nobody liked but what we're not going to do is act like Charlotte is the reason Sasha got less over. She was a 3 time world champion in a matter of 4 months and their matches had the crowd invested. You'd have a point if Sasha's next feud had the fans not behind her as a legit babyface. Sasha immediately got out of the Charlotte feud and entered a Nia Jax feud where the crowd was heavily behind her, where she was the sympathic babyface and where she got mad cheers against a Nia Jax who the crowd was heavily booing.
That's the difference. When you leave a feud with the hotter superstar they can't turn into a Lacey Evans where, like you said, they get no reaction. Sasha kept getting reactions and she kept being a notable superstar. It doesn't happen with anyone Becky's faced because they don't keep the momentum afterwards.
You keep talking about who's placed where on the card and who's champion but that's not what we're talking about when we mention who's elevated and who's not. Just because you've got the world title doesn't mean you're elevated when nobody cares and the same afterwards.
Nobody cares about Lacey Evans.
Well said. To add two points; 1.) A lot of fans still angry about the 2016 Sasha/Charlotte feud ignore the actual context. It was very even, and the main reason Charlotte won was so she could put over Bayley afterwards, which they’d already made the central point of the Survivor Series build with the ‘Bayley is the weak link’ storyline, so it shouldn’t have come off as surprising. 2.) Obviously a lot of this is Vince’s choices, but I think what makes Becky not elevate opponents is the combination of her super strong booking and her ‘worked shoot’ style of tweet. She always takes credit if anyone attacks her, is always ready to undercut any moments where she had to sell (like Ronda beating her up on Raw, where she laughed it off on SDL the night after and beat up Charlotte yet again, or writing ‘Never Tapped’ after Nattie put a Sharpshooter on her), and brings up arguments already widely believed by smarks. Combine that with the way she gets booked in matches and it’s a tough combination.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2019 19:30:50 GMT -5
If that's your definition then fine but to me being elevated means being in a better position and being more over. That's what's it has always meant in wrestling as far as I know. Just because someone's good enough to overcome poor booking and still be over doesn't mean they've been elevated. They're over in spite of the poor booking, not because of it. Joe gets a good upper midcard heel reaction. He had the potential to be the most over person on the roster if he didn't lose every big match. Are you telling me Joe wouldn't have been more over if he actually got to destroy AJ and win the title at some point instead of losing over and over again? And Asuka. You're saying she's still over but it's not even in the same stratosphere of overness as it was prior to Wrestlemania 34. And you say Sasha still got a reaction. Yeah, she got a decent babyface reaction in 2017 but check the tapes, she was WAY more over the year before. How can choking in the biggest matches to the same person over and over and ending up being less over than you were to begin with be considered being elevated? That's the entire point.
You can be elevated and yet not be at your max potential. Look at just about everyone in the company. Most of them aren't at their max and yet they've been elevated from their previous positions. That doesn't mean they're crap if they're not at their max, that just means they haven't reached the peak. Joe, we're not talking about him being "more over", we're talking about what it means to be elevated and that guy's had that same elevation if not slightly more for a while not. Him losing matches doesn't make the crowd silent like what happened with Lacey and Nattie after they faced Becky. He loses, people are upset, next feud he gets in or next promo he cuts everyone's behind him again. In comparison to Lacey, people care about him. Lastly, I checked multiple Sasha videos from 2016-2017 before I made my posts just so I was sure I was correct and yeah, that Charlotte feud wasn't what hurt her like you were claiming. She kept the momentum from that feud and their HIAC match and then entered a Nia feud where she made Nia into a credible superstar and then afterwards mingled with Bayley who had just been called up and that's when Sasha and Bayley started the whole "will they feud?" thing.
At the end of the day it's about who's over and who keeps that momentum and overness with the crowd. You can't tell me that Lacey and Nattie were more over after those Becky feuds because they weren't. Nobody cares about them.
Well said. To add two points; 1.) A lot of fans still angry about the 2016 Sasha/Charlotte feud ignore the actual context. It was very even, and the main reason Charlotte won was so she could put over Bayley afterwards, which they’d already made the central point of the Survivor Series build with the ‘Bayley is the weak link’ storyline, so it shouldn’t have come off as surprising. 2.) Obviously a lot of this is Vince’s choices, but I think what makes Becky not elevate opponents is the combination of her super strong booking and her ‘worked shoot’ style of tweet. She always takes credit if anyone attacks her, is always ready to undercut any moments where she had to sell (like Ronda beating her up on Raw, where she laughed it off on SDL the night after and beat up Charlotte yet again, or writing ‘Never Tapped’ after Nattie put a Sharpshooter on her), and brings up arguments already widely believed by smarks. Combine that with the way she gets booked in matches and it’s a tough combination. Right. Bayley even pinned Charlotte at that WM to keep her title to cement that. They needed a heel, Charlotte was the lead woman heel, she put Bayley over. It makes sense. Also yeah I agree, same with her comments about Sasha over the past day and her fans. It's like we said. Becky keeps trashing people through social media, interviews, trashes them in matches and out ore matches so of course no one's going to be elevated.
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Post by Dub H on Sept 16, 2019 19:42:56 GMT -5
If that's the case, the division needs a Khabib, someone that is a viable threat, doesn't talk much but dominates its way to the top. Arrogant to some and awkward to others but confident in its skill to smash the opposition and letting the results do the talking. Feel like that was pretty much Asuka. But they have absolutely no interest in doing anything with her. Which is annoying because Asuka was constantly the most over or second most over in the roster. Vince just literally saw her as a way to put Charlotte over and then dropped her.Both times.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2019 19:48:55 GMT -5
If that's your definition then fine but to me being elevated means being in a better position and being more over. That's what's it has always meant in wrestling as far as I know. Just because someone's good enough to overcome poor booking and still be over doesn't mean they've been elevated. They're over in spite of the poor booking, not because of it. Joe gets a good upper midcard heel reaction. He had the potential to be the most over person on the roster if he didn't lose every big match. Are you telling me Joe wouldn't have been more over if he actually got to destroy AJ and win the title at some point instead of losing over and over again? And Asuka. You're saying she's still over but it's not even in the same stratosphere of overness as it was prior to Wrestlemania 34. And you say Sasha still got a reaction. Yeah, she got a decent babyface reaction in 2017 but check the tapes, she was WAY more over the year before. How can choking in the biggest matches to the same person over and over and ending up being less over than you were to begin with be considered being elevated? That's the entire point.
You can be elevated and yet not be at your max potential. Look at just about everyone in the company. Most of them aren't at their max and yet they've been elevated from their previous positions. That doesn't mean they're crap if they're not at their max, that just means they haven't reached the peak. Joe, we're not talking about him being "more over", we're talking about what it means to be elevated and that guy's had that same elevation if not slightly more for a while not. Him losing matches doesn't make the crowd silent like what happened with Lacey and Nattie after they faced Becky. He loses, people are upset, next feud he gets in or next promo he cuts everyone's behind him again. In comparison to Lacey, people care about him. Lastly, I checked multiple Sasha videos from 2016-2017 before I made my posts just so I was sure I was correct and yeah, that Charlotte feud wasn't what hurt her like you were claiming. She kept the momentum from that feud and their HIAC match and then entered a Nia feud where she made Nia into a credible superstar and then afterwards mingled with Bayley who had just been called up and that's when Sasha and Bayley started the whole "will they feud?" thing.
At the end of the day it's about who's over and who keeps that momentum and overness with the crowd. You can't tell me that Lacey and Nattie were more over after those Becky feuds because they weren't. Nobody cares about them. You keep shifting the goalposts though. Now you're saying being elevated means being more over. Right, but earlier you said Jinder Mahal was elevated going from the WWE title to the US title despite him clearly getting less reaction. He wasn't over enough to be a main eventer but he at least got a decent amount of boos during his WWE title reign. When he went back to the midcard though hardly anyone cared. In no way is that an elevation. And Samoa Joe has been over from day one. Listen to the reaction when he debuted and attacked Seth Rollins. He's never not been over. He absolutely didn't get more over after that Styles feud though like you're claiming so how can you say he was elevated? Lacey and Nattie might not be more over but they aren't less over either (although I'd argue Lacey at least gets some response now compared to early in the year when she was interrupting random segments to dead silence). At worst they're on the same level they were before. And Sasha is getting way more of a reaction now than she was earlier this year. Meanwhile, Asuka after Wrestlemania 34 and Sasha after 2016 were both considerably less over. That is not even debatable. They might have still been over but it was not on the level they had been previously and their main event/title momentum was dead.
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Post by theironyuppie on Sept 16, 2019 19:49:06 GMT -5
Feel like that was pretty much Asuka. But they have absolutely no interest in doing anything with her. Which is annoying because Asuka was constantly the most over or second most over in the roster. Vince just literally saw her as a way to put Charlotte over and then dropped her.Both times. It’s pretty evident at this point the main reason they did the March SDL title change was so Becky 2 Belts could happen less than a fortnight later. By all accounts it was added to that episode really late—hours before the show that night they were still advertising a four-way #1 contender match that never happened. As for the WM34 one, it’s important to remember Charlotte dropped the belt to Carmella two nights later (which is probably how Asuka’s streak would have ended otherwise) and then both Asuka and Charlotte got crappily booked to keep Carmella’s reign going. Becky on the other hand got very strong booking from late May onwards, being clear runner up in the MITB match (so Alexa ended up helping her and Ronda that night) and winning at least seven straight TV matches clean,
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Post by Dub H on Sept 16, 2019 19:52:14 GMT -5
Which is annoying because Asuka was constantly the most over or second most over in the roster. Vince just literally saw her as a way to put Charlotte over and then dropped her.Both times. It’s pretty evident at this point the main reason they did the March SDL title change was so Becky 2 Belts could happen less than a fortnight later. By all accounts it was added to that episode really late—hours before the show that night they were still advertising a four-way #1 contender match that never happened. As for the WM34 one, it’s important to remember Charlotte dropped the belt to Carmella two nights later (which is probably how Asuka’s streak would have ended otherwise) and then both Asuka and Charlotte got crappily booked to keep Carmella’s reign going. Becky on the other hand got very strong booking from late May onwards, being clear runner up in the MITB match (so Alexa ended up helping her and Ronda that night) and winning at least seven straight TV matches clean, The first time was to get Charlotte over,I don't think there is a way to spin it otherwise,especially with "Charlotte was reayd for Asuka") and thens he got booked into oblivion. The first time yeh it was for the main event,but given that Becky had lost clean to Asuka, it was a nice side effect of boosting Charlotte.Two for One I think.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2019 20:20:04 GMT -5
You keep shifting the goalposts though. Now you're saying being elevated means being more over. Right, but earlier you said Jinder Mahal was elevated going from the WWE title to the US title despite him clearly getting less reaction. He wasn't over enough to be a main eventer but he at least got a decent amount of boos during his WWE title reign. When he went back to the midcard though hardly anyone cared. In no way is that an elevation. And Samoa Joe has been over from day one. Listen to the reaction when he debuted and attacked Seth Rollins. He's never not been over. He absolutely didn't get more over after that Styles feud though like you're claiming so how can you say he was elevated? Lacey and Nattie might not be more over but they aren't less over either (although I'd argue Lacey at least gets some response now compared to early in the year when she was interrupting random segments to dead silence). At worst they're on the same level they were before. And Sasha is getting way more of a reaction now than she was earlier this year. Meanwhile, Asuka after Wrestlemania 34 and Sasha after 2016 were both considerably less over. That is not even debatable. They might have still been over but it was not on the level they had been previously and their main event/title momentum was dead. officialfan.proboards.com/post/14918767/threadThe first thing I said to you was "A great champion is able to elevate their opponent up to their level regardless of the conditions. That's why Michaels, Bryan and Styles were so great. Bryan for example, look at what he did for Kofi. Becky just isn't that hence why she's having this problem. She can't elevate her opponents as this character. Charlotte was better than her when it comes to elevating people as Charlotte herself elevated Becky to her current level" and that's on brand to what I'm saying here. I haven't shifted any goal posts. Even in posts afterwards I've mentioned overness, keeping momentum and I've given other superstars as examples. You thought when I said momentum I was talking about where they were on the card but the entire time I was mentioning crowd reaction, knowing their characters, what it means to be a better superstar as it comes to how they're perceived by everyone rather than who holds a belt. In Jinder's case, you can check people's posts here about Jinder, while he lost the world title the guy knew his character more, he was better in the ring and he was better in that US Title hunt than a world title. In the world title picture the guy was like Swagger compared to Swagger when he was WTP Swagger if that makes sense. At the end of the day that's what this entirely about. There's a reason why people liked Jinder more in the midcard position than the world title picture and that's because he fit better, was still highlighted as much and he was better from a character and in-ring standpoint then. Jinder lost the title and became a midcarder and that's a de-elevation when it comes to titles but we're not talking about titles. Look at the Swagger example for proof of what we're talking about. Joe, I've already commented on this and won't be doing it again because that's going around in circles. Lacey and Nattie, if you're really going to tell me that these 2 get more reaction now than they did in that Becky feud or anything close to it then yeah you're out of your mind with this one. They just had match a few weeks ago where Nattie was yelling at the crowd to give a damn about them. Compare that to a Joe post-Styles match and you see a difference. Compare that to a everyone else I named and see the difference. Compare that to a Sasha post-Charlotte match and see the difference.
Bruh, the Lucha House Party get more of a reaction than these 2.
If that's comparable to what they got against Becky then shit, I guess I overestimated Becky's cheers and how invested the crowd was in her matches.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Sept 16, 2019 22:00:20 GMT -5
It’s pretty evident at this point the main reason they did the March SDL title change was so Becky 2 Belts could happen less than a fortnight later. By all accounts it was added to that episode really late—hours before the show that night they were still advertising a four-way #1 contender match that never happened. As for the WM34 one, it’s important to remember Charlotte dropped the belt to Carmella two nights later (which is probably how Asuka’s streak would have ended otherwise) and then both Asuka and Charlotte got crappily booked to keep Carmella’s reign going. Becky on the other hand got very strong booking from late May onwards, being clear runner up in the MITB match (so Alexa ended up helping her and Ronda that night) and winning at least seven straight TV matches clean, The first time was to get Charlotte over,I don't think there is a way to spin it otherwise,especially with "Charlotte was reayd for Asuka") and thens he got booked into oblivion. The first time yeh it was for the main event,but given that Becky had lost clean to Asuka, it was a nice side effect of boosting Charlotte.Two for One I think. The Mania match was def another accolade for Charlotte with the added caveat of knowing Mella was going to be champ. Asuka losing to Charlotte the 2nd time was 100% about Becky, to make her moment that much bigger
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Sept 16, 2019 22:02:20 GMT -5
That's the entire point.
You can be elevated and yet not be at your max potential. Look at just about everyone in the company. Most of them aren't at their max and yet they've been elevated from their previous positions. That doesn't mean they're crap if they're not at their max, that just means they haven't reached the peak. Joe, we're not talking about him being "more over", we're talking about what it means to be elevated and that guy's had that same elevation if not slightly more for a while not. Him losing matches doesn't make the crowd silent like what happened with Lacey and Nattie after they faced Becky. He loses, people are upset, next feud he gets in or next promo he cuts everyone's behind him again. In comparison to Lacey, people care about him. Lastly, I checked multiple Sasha videos from 2016-2017 before I made my posts just so I was sure I was correct and yeah, that Charlotte feud wasn't what hurt her like you were claiming. She kept the momentum from that feud and their HIAC match and then entered a Nia feud where she made Nia into a credible superstar and then afterwards mingled with Bayley who had just been called up and that's when Sasha and Bayley started the whole "will they feud?" thing.
At the end of the day it's about who's over and who keeps that momentum and overness with the crowd. You can't tell me that Lacey and Nattie were more over after those Becky feuds because they weren't. Nobody cares about them. Lacey and Nattie might not be more over but they aren't less over either (although I'd argue Lacey at least gets some response now compared to early in the year when she was interrupting random segments to dead silence). At worst they're on the same level they were before. And Sasha is getting way more of a reaction now than she was earlier this year. Meanwhile, Asuka after Wrestlemania 34 and Sasha after 2016 were both considerably less over. That is not even debatable. They might have still been over but it was not on the level they had been previously and their main event/title momentum was dead. Sahsa Banks reaction has nothing to do with Becky tho. Sasha could have came back to fight the garbage man and fans were going to pop because she is over especially with them making her a heel finally on the main roster
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2019 22:03:25 GMT -5
Well, tonight Sasha's cheers definitely decreased after that Becky match. When Becky showed up the crowd was on Becky's side. Sounds to me like after the Becky feud Sasha will go back to those downgraded cheers given this feud's making her look like crap as expected.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Sept 16, 2019 22:06:16 GMT -5
Well, tonight Sasha's cheers definitely decreased after that Becky match. When Becky showed up the crowd was on Becky's side. Sounds to me like after the Becky feud she'll go back to those downgraded cheers given this feud's making her look like crap as expected. As said, the shit they pulled is going to hurt Sasha's heat. She is left laying in the ring holding her am after a DQ finish. She got no heat last night so why would anyone expect her to get any type of reaction. At least if she beat Becky black and blue she can come out bragging saying Becky had to take the easy way heat to beat her It makes Sasha a hypocrite for cheating while Becky has something to play off of
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2019 22:08:31 GMT -5
Well, tonight Sasha's cheers definitely decreased after that Becky match. When Becky showed up the crowd was on Becky's side. Sounds to me like after the Becky feud she'll go back to those downgraded cheers given this feud's making her look like crap as expected. As said, the shit they pulled is going to hurt Sasha's heat. She is left laying in the ring holding her am after a DQ finish. She got no heat last night so why would anyone expect her to get any type of reaction. At least if she beat Becky black and blue she can come out bragging saying Becky had to take the easy way heat to beat her It makes Sasha a hypocrite for cheating while Becky has something to play off of It honestly makes me feel bad for Sasha and yet she's the heel. That's not good booking.
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Sept 16, 2019 22:09:53 GMT -5
This Draft can't come soon enough, the women's division is in a chokehold right now and all four of these girls are suffering due to it. Lynch has no believable competition, Bayley and Sasha look like shit in their new turns, and NO ONE WANTS FACE CHARLOTTE.
Doesn't help the tag champions also look like shit, seriously how many f***ing times are we doing the "ALEXA IS HURT" angle? I'm so tired of all of this.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Sept 16, 2019 22:15:53 GMT -5
As said, the shit they pulled is going to hurt Sasha's heat. She is left laying in the ring holding her am after a DQ finish. She got no heat last night so why would anyone expect her to get any type of reaction. At least if she beat Becky black and blue she can come out bragging saying Becky had to take the easy way heat to beat her It makes Sasha a hypocrite for cheating while Becky has something to play off of It honestly makes me feel bad for Sasha and yet she's the heel. That's not good booking. You should want to see Becky kick her ass Look at Charlotte and Bayley and how in theory you want Bayley to lose at some point because when she finally got her chance to prove she is better than Charlotte she cheated. Charlotte has a major reason to want to get her hands on Sasha Meanwhile, Becky has gotten her hands on Sasha so in theory what is their to root for. If they are to fight in a hell in a cell, this isn't a Becky is finally get her hands on Sasha moment after all this time
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2019 22:21:57 GMT -5
It honestly makes me feel bad for Sasha and yet she's the heel. That's not good booking. You should want to see Becky kick her ass Look at Charlotte and Bayley and how in theory you want Bayley to lose at some point because when she finally got her chance to prove she is better than Charlotte she cheated. Charlotte has a major reason to want to get her hands on Sasha Meanwhile, Becky has gotten her hands on Sasha so in theory what is their to root for. If they are to fight in a hell in a cell, this isn't a Becky is finally get her hands on Sasha moment after all this time Yeah. I don't get it but we'll see how it turns out because right now it's making Becky look like crap. This doesn't feel good.
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Post by schma on Sept 16, 2019 23:09:17 GMT -5
Don't get me wrong the sign of a great champion is someone who can elevate people. That said,
I missed some of the back and forth on elevating but I was thinking, that it's not quite fair to compare Becky to Michaels, Styles and Bryan for a couple reasons. One of the things is that when those guys ended a feud with someone, that person had something else to go on to, whether another title or feud. Meanwhile Becky's has Lacey disappear for a few weeks after their feud ended with next to no follow up. Asuka beat Becky clean for the title in what should have been the biggest win of her life (She beat someone who was one of the most over stars on the roster and who won the main event of Wrestlemania. That they didn't follow up on this is asinine but anyways). The biggest win of her career was followed up with being taken off tv and not mentioned until she needed to pass the belt to Charlotte. Can we really blame Becky for not elevating her there? Even Natalya had her minifeud with Sasha after but it basically consisted of Sasha beating her ass down over and over for a few weeks. Now where is Nattie?
That's essentially the issue, it's damn near impossible to elevate someone in the women's division right now because unless you're in a title picture you're off tv. Whatever happened to Ember Moon after her title match? Charlotte elevated the hell out of Becky but that seems to be the exception here and most of this issue falls on the shoulders of booking/creative and the old man at the top.
That said, as much as Bryan elevated Kofi, part of that was the context of Kofi's career. If they'd done the same thing with Ali it might have worked but I don't think it would have had near the impact that it had with Kofi. This is not a knock on Bryan either. He's awesome and most definitely did his part and then some. It's similar to when Charlotte elevated Becky. A big part of what made that program so hot and brought them up was the context of their relationships and their previous bookings. If it had been say Naomi or even Bayley in Becky's spot for that feud, I don't think it would have had near as much heat to it.
So I take the point but in the current situation for the women's division, it's really tough to elevate someone when they just ghost right after the feud (not by choice).
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