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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Jun 27, 2020 1:16:46 GMT -5
The way a lot of the smark-crowd hates him has always been perplexing to me. It's very personal and very deep. It's not his booking or the character it's HIM. I never got it.
Anyway, of course he can be salvaged, just give him something interesting to do and make sure his character has motivation. Even if it's not new: he's a show-off, ok. There's a million ways to do something interesting and to set up feuds. Let's make it so he "calls" his victories, like he says what specific move he's going to use to beat the person. He feuds with someone who keeps blocking his "called" move, boom, specialty match for a ppv. Or he announces his intentions to... I dunno, like, win the US title and then immediately retire it, so he can be the last person in the record books, so the champ now is fighting for the whole lineage of the title. Or whatever!
This is not a big dilemma! Just write him well like you write anyone else well. The only thing is, they can't write anyone well.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2020 5:11:41 GMT -5
The way a lot of the smark-crowd hates him has always been perplexing to me. It's very personal and very deep. It's not his booking or the character it's HIM. I never got it. Is he unpopular in other places besides FAN? This is the only wrestling site I post on, so I have no idea what's said about him on Reddit or other boards.
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Post by Tenshigure on Jun 27, 2020 10:01:20 GMT -5
Dolph could be easily salvaged. And still using the same gimmick he’s had for years. Let him come out and complain about how he’s been looked over and passed by, better in the ring than anyone on the roster and then puta everyone on notice. And then he comes out a squashed a big time Main Event player! But let’s not stop there. He KEEPS WINNING in really good, competitive matches (winning impressively with the main event era) on his way to the title. Dolph is such a talent that we can actually buy that he could beat anyone (and deep down I think we want to see it too), it’s just we’ve been let down too much to think that he’s going to be anything other than a gatekeeper. Salvage Ziggler...by doing the exact same thing they've been doing with him for the last decade? Am I missing something here? He's been doing this very thing for years (even winning high profile matches and feuds) and NOTHING comes of it due to his booking. Even if they gave him a hot streak against a reputable opponent, it's only a matter of time before Vince grows tired and moves on, leaving him right where he was as always with his start-stop pushes.
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Post by BatPunk on Jun 27, 2020 10:23:06 GMT -5
Dolph could be easily salvaged. And still using the same gimmick he’s had for years. Let him come out and complain about how he’s been looked over and passed by, better in the ring than anyone on the roster and then puta everyone on notice. And then he comes out a squashed a big time Main Event player! But let’s not stop there. He KEEPS WINNING in really good, competitive matches (winning impressively with the main event era) on his way to the title. Dolph is such a talent that we can actually buy that he could beat anyone (and deep down I think we want to see it too), it’s just we’ve been let down too much to think that he’s going to be anything other than a gatekeeper. Salvage Ziggler...by doing the exact same thing they've been doing with him for the last decade? Am I missing something here? He's been doing this very thing for years (even winning high profile matches and feuds) and NOTHING comes of it due to his booking. Even if they gave him a hot streak against a reputable opponent, it's only a matter of time before Vince grows tired and moves on, leaving him right where he was as always with his start-stop pushes. No, you didn’t miss a thing. But your post just reiterated mine and proved my last point.
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4real
Wade Wilson
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Post by 4real on Jun 27, 2020 10:55:09 GMT -5
Im not doubting he can have a good match with Drew but he just isn’t a threat and hasn’t been treated as one for so long. He wasn’t even a threat against Kofi last year. At least WWE tried to build up Lashley as a threat with a series of wins and a new manager.
Dolph just feels so old and his presence is constantly met with groans despite possibly being involved in the best storyline this year.
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BorneAgain
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Post by BorneAgain on Jun 27, 2020 10:55:42 GMT -5
There's two significant issues with Ziggler. The lack of freshening up his shtick is one (say what you will about Miz but he's had plenty of different phases these past 10 years). and I think the second is an internal problem. The guy simply doesn't have a lot of leverage with company.
The guy's wrestling skills not being as novel has been noted already, however in addition there's been loads of current talent that were willing to leave and pursue options other than WWE (Lashley, Morrison, Drew). Dolph has talked a big game about being unhappy, wanting more, and leaving the company as a possibility, yet every time he stays, probably getting a bit more money and a token main event once in a while. The company has no incentive to really do much with them because they know at worst he'll complain on social media once or twice at worst before re-signing and doing the same thing. Moreover he doesn't even have a Miz like PR presence (via promotion and movies) that he could parlay into getting more for himself.
All the potential to be a bigger deal and at the end of the day he's just a Tito Santana that gets to sniff a few more main events.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jun 27, 2020 11:37:32 GMT -5
He's male Natalya
A good wrestler that stood out 10 years ago but now surrounded by wrestlers who are much better then him. Add on the fact he literally has not changed his gimmick in lord knows how long. Change your hair, change your gear but DO SOMETHING that isn't the same old you, you have been your whole career.
Randy Orton is 15 years in the game but yet he's doing some of his best character work in the game for a guy who has a ton of character moments. Ziggler has nothing to draw on past and present because he hasn't done enough to change
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jun 27, 2020 11:39:53 GMT -5
The way a lot of the smark-crowd hates him has always been perplexing to me. It's very personal and very deep. It's not his booking or the character it's HIM. I never got it. In fairness, people have gotten tired of him talking He was one of the big ones to complain about being held down, he's going to leave WWE but yet he's done nothing to actually change and it is just a man crying wold What's more perplexing is people fall for this trap with everyone else who cried wolf as much as he did
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Kalmia
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Post by Kalmia on Jun 27, 2020 11:56:17 GMT -5
Ziggler is a great wrestler and a good hand. He's just boring and brings nothing new to the table anymore.
For comparison, Steve Austin's entire WWE wrestling run (including his time as the Ringmaster with Dibiase) was just over seven years. Dolph Ziggler has been Dolph Ziggler (so this is excluding his run in the Spirit Squad etc) for TWELVE years. How can anyone possibly get excited after 12 years of Dolph Ziggler being Dolph Ziggler?
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Post by Tenshigure on Jun 27, 2020 12:12:40 GMT -5
Salvage Ziggler...by doing the exact same thing they've been doing with him for the last decade? Am I missing something here? He's been doing this very thing for years (even winning high profile matches and feuds) and NOTHING comes of it due to his booking. Even if they gave him a hot streak against a reputable opponent, it's only a matter of time before Vince grows tired and moves on, leaving him right where he was as always with his start-stop pushes. No, you didn’t miss a thing. But your post just reiterated mine and proved my last point. No, I mean your "easy fix" is anything but. Even if he went on a hot streak and was undefeated for the rest of the year, as long as his (gimmick) motivation and attitude doesn't change with the generic "here to show you I'm the best," the audience will never get behind it because they've seen this same thing for years from the guy. The last time he had a real opportunity to break out, they squandered it in favor of their golden face of the company in Cena. That cloud will never go away with Ziggler, not with the countless times this has repeated itself in his career in the WWE. The suggested solution doesn't even scratch the surface of the problems Ziggler has. It isn't JUST booking with him, as his attitude and character hasn't changed in a decade either (save for that very brief time he cut his hair and turned into an Evan Bourne doppelganger). Even the biggest stars have had made tweaks to their character of the years...all Ziggler has done is change his hairstyle. I'm not saying he's a complete lost cause, but I do feel his tenure in the WWE has hit its ceiling years ago with his current position. He will never go further than gatekeeper or 'transitional feud,' and quite frankly I'm not sure he even cares anymore if he ever progresses.
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Post by Can you afford to pay me, Gah on Jun 27, 2020 12:29:18 GMT -5
It really the issue with Dolph is that the stop and go pushes and choking each time. Most fans see a guy who just can no longer buy into being a ME. What really has changed about him? Not very much. So why should any fan who seen a guy around for ten years doing the same act for the most part with little change and keeps choking. Yet we are so post to believe now its going to be different. Yes he is a solid hand in the ring and on the mic. Not amazing on the mic but solid. But for the many times we as fans where made to believe that he was finally going to break that ceiling, he never does.
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Post by 06vwgti on Jun 27, 2020 14:01:01 GMT -5
Agreed about the stop-stop pushes, they've been yo-yo'ing him for ages. I remember a lot of people not happy when Rey won the feud for a belt between him and Dolph multiple times. And it never stopped from there even when he was scratching the main event years later
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Post by BatPunk on Jun 27, 2020 15:01:35 GMT -5
No, you didn’t miss a thing. But your post just reiterated mine and proved my last point. No, I mean your "easy fix" is anything but. Even if he went on a hot streak and was undefeated for the rest of the year, as long as his (gimmick) motivation and attitude doesn't change with the generic "here to show you I'm the best," the audience will never get behind it because they've seen this same thing for years from the guy. The last time he had a real opportunity to break out, they squandered it in favor of their golden face of the company in Cena. That cloud will never go away with Ziggler, not with the countless times this has repeated itself in his career in the WWE. The suggested solution doesn't even scratch the surface of the problems Ziggler has. It isn't JUST booking with him, as his attitude and character hasn't changed in a decade either (save for that very brief time he cut his hair and turned into an Evan Bourne doppelganger). Even the biggest stars have had made tweaks to their character of the years...all Ziggler has done is change his hairstyle. I'm not saying he's a complete lost cause, but I do feel his tenure in the WWE has hit its ceiling years ago with his current position. He will never go further than gatekeeper or 'transitional feud,' and quite frankly I'm not sure he even cares anymore if he ever progresses. I think with the right push and booking, it doesn’t matter who it is or what they’ve done before. It worked for Kofi.
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nisidhe
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Post by nisidhe on Jun 27, 2020 19:00:56 GMT -5
I keep thinking back to Survivor Series 2014 and how what followed could have, _should_ have put him on the path to the main event, stepping in where Bryan couldn't at the time. As the "saviour" of WWE against the Authority, he could have ridden that wave all the way to a Rumble win, a Wrestlemania title shot, a whole lot of "what ifs" that might have changed the course of the company.
At this point, though, I don't think it's in the cards for him. His role is to give back.
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Post by Terry McConkey on Jun 27, 2020 19:41:50 GMT -5
Just have him cut a worked shoot where he says the Dolph Ziggler name always held him back and that he wishes to be known as Nick Nemeth from now on. I hate the name. It makes him sound like a failed indie wrestler and he is somewhat accomplished, like it or not.
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Pushed to the Moon
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Post by Pushed to the Moon on Jun 29, 2020 10:56:20 GMT -5
He's male NatalyaA good wrestler that stood out 10 years ago but now surrounded by wrestlers who are much better then him. Add on the fact he literally has not changed his gimmick in lord knows how long. Change your hair, change your gear but DO SOMETHING that isn't the same old you, you have been your whole career. Randy Orton is 15 years in the game but yet he's doing some of his best character work in the game for a guy who has a ton of character moments. Ziggler has nothing to draw on past and present because he hasn't done enough to change That is the biggest insult in the world haha. I think one difference with Randy is that he has a better gimmick to begin with. The cold blooded serial killer will always have legs and can be transferable to any opponent. Like he can be sticking screwdrivers in Jeff's ear one minute and setting fire to a barn the next. Dolph's gimmick is a bitter, whiny guy which gets stale pretty quickly. I'm gonna whine at this guy and say I should be champ! (Then lose). Now I'm gonna whine at THIS guy and say I should be champ! (Then lose.) Repeat x50. After his first whiney failure they should have switched him up somehow.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jun 29, 2020 11:32:33 GMT -5
He's male NatalyaA good wrestler that stood out 10 years ago but now surrounded by wrestlers who are much better then him. Add on the fact he literally has not changed his gimmick in lord knows how long. Change your hair, change your gear but DO SOMETHING that isn't the same old you, you have been your whole career. Randy Orton is 15 years in the game but yet he's doing some of his best character work in the game for a guy who has a ton of character moments. Ziggler has nothing to draw on past and present because he hasn't done enough to change That is the biggest insult in the world haha. I think one difference with Randy is that he has a better gimmick to begin with. The cold blooded serial killer will always have legs and can be transferable to any opponent. Like he can be sticking screwdrivers in Jeff's ear one minute and setting fire to a barn the next. Dolph's gimmick is a bitter, whiny guy which gets stale pretty quickly. I'm gonna whine at this guy and say I should be champ! (Then lose). Now I'm gonna whine at THIS guy and say I should be champ! (Then lose.) Repeat x50. After his first whiney failure they should have switched him up somehow. Yea, but it is not like Dolph can't switch it up. Hell, he could went JBL route with cutting his hair and being more business since he has been doing Fox News for years. It is still the i'm better then you gimmick but now he's out with short hair, dye it back brown and come out in suits. Seth was able to use people turning against him and turn it into the Monday night messiah gimmick which obviously works since people were calling him crossfit Jesus He does comedy so he could use that more in his character like how Miz went more Hollywood route as he started acting more.
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Pushed to the Moon
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by Pushed to the Moon on Jun 29, 2020 11:47:43 GMT -5
That is the biggest insult in the world haha. I think one difference with Randy is that he has a better gimmick to begin with. The cold blooded serial killer will always have legs and can be transferable to any opponent. Like he can be sticking screwdrivers in Jeff's ear one minute and setting fire to a barn the next. Dolph's gimmick is a bitter, whiny guy which gets stale pretty quickly. I'm gonna whine at this guy and say I should be champ! (Then lose). Now I'm gonna whine at THIS guy and say I should be champ! (Then lose.) Repeat x50. After his first whiney failure they should have switched him up somehow. Yea, but it is not like Dolph can't switch it up. Hell, he could went JBL route with cutting his hair and being more business since he has been doing Fox News for years. It is still the i'm better then you gimmick but now he's out with short hair, dye it back brown and come out in suits. Seth was able to use people turning against him and turn it into the Monday night messiah gimmick which obviously works since people were calling him crossfit Jesus He does comedy so he could use that more in his character like how Miz went more Hollywood route as he started acting more. Yeah I'm not sure about the hair thing since he's basically the only guy on the roster who doesn't have dark hair and a beard but in terms of his personality they could definitely change him. I'd also like to see him with another mini stable like Big E and AJ. Take a couple of new guys/girls under his wing like Seth has.
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Post by ben:friendship frog on Jun 29, 2020 11:51:22 GMT -5
They have ALWAYS been scared to push him and I do mean always.
When he debuted as Dolph and had that match with Batista I was telling everyone who would listen that he was a future star and world champion.
He turns up on Smackdown, feuds with Rey over the IC title. Loses on PPV several times and wins the belt on a random Smackdown.
I'm not even gonna talk about the Edge feud...
His booking has been some of the worst in history. The reason he was so over in 2013 when he won the belt is because of exactly that. Everyone in the world could see how good he was apart from WWE.
The Survivor Series match with the Sting debut should have propelled him into main event face territory but they did that stupid angle where he was fired and then he was forgotten about.
I shouldn't feel too bad because he's had a damn good career, former world champion, had some amazing moments, somehow stayed mostly injury free and most importantly had a steady income in this awful business for over 15 years.
But it could have been so much more.
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Post by glorious83 on Jun 29, 2020 12:25:17 GMT -5
I would compare him to Christian. Both guys have had great careers but every time it seems like they’re finally going to be main event guys they find someway to bring them back down and probably goes back to the fact there’s not much trust from the upper brass.
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