The Dolph Ziggler Problem

[Greer]

Just watched a WWE Playback with Miz and Ziggler. Nice little chat. He knows how to sell. He knows psychology. He sells his ass off. His timing is fantastic.

I watch his matches and he's always great. He's had gimmick change after gimmick change.

He's the WWE's identity crisis. Could've been the next Mr Perfect. Could've been the next HBK. Could've been the next...something. Do the "steal the gimmick" thing.

Stop and start pushes. Tries stand-up comedy. Tries acting.

Now he's calling out Drew.

Anyways, can he be salvaged?

At all?

He knows what he's doing. He's a veteran at this point. What do you do with a Dolph Ziggler?

[Deleted]

He's still a really solid hand, but he's ancient in TV years and he's never really changed anything up about his act (even though I did enjoy his work during the feud with Otis). Those are his biggest problems.

[EoE: Well There's Your Problem]

Jun 26, 2020 22:06:04 GMT -5 @dax said:

He's still a really solid hand, but he's ancient in TV years and he's never really changed anything up about his act (even though I did enjoy his work during the feud with Otis). Those are his biggest problems.

He is properly TV ancient, man. I’ve scored him in 724 f***ing matches with the rankings, you know (from the start of 2009 to now, other than most of December 2009 which I haven’t finished scoring yet).

[camphor #BLM]

[rnrk supports BLM]

Jun 26, 2020 21:56:09 GMT -5 Greer said:

He's had gimmick change after gimmick change.

Not nearly enough. If they ever wanted him to amount to anything beyond dead-end midcard filler, he needed a better name than Dolph f***ing Ziggler.

Shit, we were saying that on here back in... 2010.

[Welfare Willis]

Yes, but it takes stopping with the start and stop pushes and 50/50 booking and treating him as a legitmate threat.

So nothing will change until WWE stops being wwe.

[cabbageboy]

Honestly the only saving for him is to leave WWE and finally drop the idiotic porn star Ziggler name and go back to being Nick Nemeth. Ziggler is just so stale. And for what it's worth it's yet another challenger for Drew that has zero heat or reason to be in a title program. Rollins came off jobbing hard to Owens at WM. Lashley jobbed to Black at WM. Ziggler jobbed to Otis and has done nothing of note since except hang around Sonya Deville. WWE has maybe one heel on the roster with any heat right now and that's Orton, who I can only assume is getting the SS title shot.

[A Platypus Rave]

Being ancient in TV years and never actually having much of a character... let alone a character change is what really does him harm.

hell when Dean Ambrose pointed out he's going to rant and rave about stealing the show and then you're going to lose... and then that literally happened... Dolph coming out exactly the same afterwards absolutely salted the earth in terms of him doing anything of note.

[Deleted]

Jun 26, 2020 22:40:32 GMT -5 A Platypus Rave said:

Being ancient in TV years and never actually having much of a character... let alone a character change is what really does him no harm.

hell when Dean Ambrose pointed out he's going to rant and rave about stealing the show and then you're going to lose... and then that literally happened... Dolph coming out exactly the same afterwards absolutely salted the earth in terms of him doing anything of note.

Yeah, I mean, you look at the Ziggler of 2020 and how different is he from the Ziggler of 2016 or 2013 really? They've pulled the rug out from under him several times so I don't blame him if he's bitter, but he also hasn't done himself any favors by working the same style and basically having the same look for years.

[Oh Cry Me a Screwball]

Leave.

Seriously, leave. He's never been gone long enough for anybody to miss him. He can go comedy full time when there's a widely available vaccine for COVID. He can go to New Japan to wrestle in front of a completely different culture. He can revamp his look on the indies. Just get away from the US majors for a while.

[Deleted]

I think the Miz feud permanently killed him. The whole thing made him the most interesting he had been in years by having him confront his choke artist tendencies and want to show he could rise above it, then he did.... then it was immediately undone so he just looked like even more of a useless goof than he did going in.

[Shark]

Jun 26, 2020 22:46:35 GMT -5 @dax said:

Jun 26, 2020 22:40:32 GMT -5 A Platypus Rave said:

Being ancient in TV years and never actually having much of a character... let alone a character change is what really does him no harm.

hell when Dean Ambrose pointed out he's going to rant and rave about stealing the show and then you're going to lose... and then that literally happened... Dolph coming out exactly the same afterwards absolutely salted the earth in terms of him doing anything of note.

Yeah, I mean, you look at the Ziggler of 2020 and how different is he from the Ziggler of 2016 or 2013 really? They've pulled the rug out from under him several times so I don't blame him if he's bitter, but he also hasn't done himself any favors by working the same style and basically having the same look for years.

He's also done interviews and posted on social media so many times about how he's gonna change and be an all new Dolph and it's literally never ever happened

[A Platypus Rave]

Jun 26, 2020 22:49:25 GMT -5 Shark said:

Jun 26, 2020 22:46:35 GMT -5 @dax said:

Yeah, I mean, you look at the Ziggler of 2020 and how different is he from the Ziggler of 2016 or 2013 really? They've pulled the rug out from under him several times so I don't blame him if he's bitter, but he also hasn't done himself any favors by working the same style and basically having the same look for years.

He's also done interviews and posted on social media so many times about how he's gonna change and be an all new Dolph and it's literally never ever happened

he's also mentioned several times that he was going to leave or he was unhappy... or wasn't going to re-sign.... only to stay right where he is.

[Deleted]

Let him put over guys in the lower/mid card. No reason to try to salvage him when there’s people in NXT way better than him waiting in the wings.

[GuyOfOwnage]

Outside of the stop-start pushing and not really changing much about his look, the simple fact of the matter is, for the past 4 or 5 years, he's been a good wrestler surrounded by great wrestlers. 10 years ago, him being a good wrestler meant something, given how shallow the talent pool was at the time. He really stood out like "holy shit, this guy is amazing". But then you slowly start bringing in these NXT guys and hot indy prospects, who raise the bar considerably, and now, he's just not that special. He can no longer get by with "good wrestler" as a gimmick when there are so many on the roster that are at least as good as he is, if not better. Thus, he remains in limbo and no one gives a shit anymore.

In short, he's the Natalya of the men's division.

[Jonathan Michaels]

Jun 26, 2020 22:48:59 GMT -5 Lizuka #BLM said:

I think the Miz feud permanently killed him. The whole thing made him the most interesting he had been in years by having him confront his choke artist tendencies and want to show he could rise above it, then he did.... then it was immediately undone so he just looked like even more of a useless goof than he did going in.

Don’t forget later on, when the dynamic was swapped, Miz calling him out about constantly whining that it should be him, imploring him to actually do something for once, and he never really did.

Look at the character arcs of the two, even now, having fallen back in to his Dirt Sheet days with JoMo, Miz has a stronger sense of purpose than Ziggler, every time Dolph feuds for a world title, there is never any real consideration that Ziggler could win, and he never makes you feel like he truly wants it.

[Dub H]

Jun 26, 2020 22:48:59 GMT -5 Lizuka #BLM said:

I think the Miz feud permanently killed him. The whole thing made him the most interesting he had been in years by having him confront his choke artist tendencies and want to show he could rise above it, then he did.... then it was immediately undone so he just looked like even more of a useless goof than he did going in.

That feud was peak WWE.

Give something amazing,just to go back 180 degrees for no reason and make it look awful.

[Dub H]

Honestly the main issue?

I give you this:

The decision to have Dolph drop the belt so soon seemed kind of strange, but Eck says that McMahon had no plans to push Dolph Ziggler.

“After making the announcement to a roomful of surprised writers and producers, McMahon said he wanted to be clear that “we are not pushing Dolph.” McMahon explained that he was going through with the cash-in and title switch because he wanted a big, surprise moment for the night after WrestleMania.”

[BatPunk]

Dolph could be easily salvaged. And still using the same gimmick he’s had for years.

Let him come out and complain about how he’s been looked over and passed by, better in the ring than anyone on the roster and then puta everyone on notice.

And then he comes out a squashed a big time Main Event player! But let’s not stop there. He KEEPS WINNING in really good, competitive matches (winning impressively with the main event era) on his way to the title.

Dolph is such a talent that we can actually buy that he could beat anyone (and deep down I think we want to see it too), it’s just we’ve been let down too much to think that he’s going to be anything other than a gatekeeper.

[A Platypus Rave]

Jun 26, 2020 23:31:30 GMT -5 GuyOfOwnage said:

Outside of the stop-start pushing and not really changing much about his look, the simple fact of the matter is, for the past 4 or 5 years, he's been a good wrestler surrounded by great wrestlers. 10 years ago, him being a good wrestler meant something, given how shallow the talent pool was at the time. He really stood out like "holy shit, this guy is amazing". But then you slowly start bringing in these NXT guys and hot indy prospects, who raise the bar considerably, and now, he's just not that special. He can no longer get by with "good wrestler" as a gimmick when there are so many on the roster that are at least as good as he is, if not better. Thus, he remains in limbo and no one gives a shit anymore.

In short, he's the Natalya of the men's division.

That too...

when he first showed up "Wrestles good" could basically let you coast for your entire career in the WWE... but the level of in ring talent in the WWE has skyrocketed... and Dolph has still skated by on being a good wrestler... when there are like 20 other guys that are better than him at any given time.