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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2020 15:59:10 GMT -5
Meanwhile... It because Otis and Lee don't have the privilege of being related to The Rock
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Post by Sir Woodrow on Dec 11, 2020 15:59:24 GMT -5
Some of them end up misinterpreting it as “werk” and return to TV in full drag. Maybe I'll subscribe to the Network again if the WWE hire Trixie & Katya as commentators
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Post by DrBackflipsHoffman on Dec 11, 2020 15:59:37 GMT -5
Vince has made a large, large portion of the mid 2010s indie scene somehow worse than any of us could ever have imagined possible. Literally every time I watch a PWG DVD from 2009 to now it's just a list of guys who aren't quite as exciting any more. Not a comment on highspots in matches or whatever, not about that. It's like getting a desk at work, you do your fun teenage and 20s shit then get the NXT spot where you settle it all the f*** down and get some odd version of what a proper job looks like in the mind of an insane person. That connection goes away and nothing just seems as exciting as it did. Remember when Sami Zayn's friend was probably one of the best wrestlers in ring in the f***ing world before they tried to sign him and he died in Tijuana, and Sami signed in his honour? Sami used to be so, so amazing, now he's some Duke The Dumpster Droese guy whos doing his best work with charities.
Vince is capable of anything, he f***ed Sting up, he'll f*** anyone up.
EDIT - and by worse, not in ring or anything. Just like, who gives a shit about these guys now? Something got them to the big stage, how d'you lose it when you get on?
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Dec 11, 2020 16:10:01 GMT -5
Yeah Lee being sent there is laughable. Wait, so Vince may have sent Lee down BY ACCIDENT?! Holy hell, I don't jump on Vince as much as some but this is pathetic if true. I think it's actually dumber and more damning if Vince sent him there entirely just because he was big and got confused. Like, "Vince thinks Lee needs to learn how to work" is horrific, and making him work a typical plodding big man style would be utter trash, but it's at least coming from an idea of what he should do, wrong as it is. This though? This is "when do we put grandpa in the home" levels.
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Timeless Hayterade
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Post by Timeless Hayterade on Dec 11, 2020 16:13:09 GMT -5
Yes... Safer like...
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Dec 11, 2020 16:17:34 GMT -5
I still believe going back to PC doesnt mean having a good workrate,or being safe in the ring.
It is about working the WWE Style.Which guys like Otis and Keith Lee definitely break the mold of.
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bob
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Post by bob on Dec 11, 2020 16:18:14 GMT -5
that might explain why they took the briefcase away from Otis
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Post by kingoftheindies on Dec 11, 2020 16:18:16 GMT -5
There is this very odd disconnect in the way call-ups are handled. NXT is wholly owned and operated by WWE but at times it feels like a completely different entity in how they operate versus the rest of the company. It feels like there's no synergy between producers and trainers in monitoring talent and determining if someone is ready to be on Raw or Smackdown. And let's not even talk about the seeming lack of long-term plans for any of their call-ups. Way too many NXT talent have been called up the last few years with "Ok, they're in Raw or Smackdown now! Now what?" approaches. Don't call folks up unless you have plans in store for them, and if you don't, don't be surprised when they regress and you wonder why this hot prospect is just treading water. Keith Lee is the perfect example of the problems with the system as is.
The main difference is the philosophy of HHH and Vince. HHH trust his wrestlers and you can tell the ones that have enough freedom to say what they feel and act on it. HBK and others who help produce and give people advice give their own input and not what they think only what HHH wants. The big problem comes in when it is time for RAW/SD. Vince runs a whole diff shop then HHH and has everything by the book and does things on a whim. Question is, should HHH be booking to Vince whim or his own. HHH way no doubt works and he without question has more loyal soldiers then Vince does. Problem is his influence is only felt at the bottom level and there is no telling when if ever he will get full control. Ideally, Vince job should be cake. You got a whole system that spent a year or more showcasing this wrestler in the hottest matches and feuds possible. You only have to make minor tweaks and set them up for success. Instead, he breaks them down and builds them back up to even less success outside of a few notable examples. I wouldn't even say Keith Lee is the perfect example, more so Shayna Bayzler is. She was ready made to take the reigns from Becky and be one of the pillars of that division. Instead, she lost the Rumble, lost at Mania and disappeared for months until winning the tag titles. I think an interesting argument to have then (and nor saying I'm making it) is should Vince and Triple H streamline NXT. Since it is clear that the creative of NXT and the Creative of the main roster both have different ideas on what to do with certain acts.
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Post by CMPunkyBrewster on Dec 11, 2020 16:25:45 GMT -5
I remember making a comment about how they were going to f*** Lee up immediately, and several people decided to hit me with the "You're so negative, wait and see" bullshit.
Then they f***ed his music.
Then they f***ed his look.
Then they did absolutely nothing with him for the last almost 5 months.
Now this shit.
I'll accept apologies for being assholes in my inbox, thanks.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Dec 11, 2020 16:26:07 GMT -5
The main difference is the philosophy of HHH and Vince. HHH trust his wrestlers and you can tell the ones that have enough freedom to say what they feel and act on it. HBK and others who help produce and give people advice give their own input and not what they think only what HHH wants. The big problem comes in when it is time for RAW/SD. Vince runs a whole diff shop then HHH and has everything by the book and does things on a whim. Question is, should HHH be booking to Vince whim or his own. HHH way no doubt works and he without question has more loyal soldiers then Vince does. Problem is his influence is only felt at the bottom level and there is no telling when if ever he will get full control. Ideally, Vince job should be cake. You got a whole system that spent a year or more showcasing this wrestler in the hottest matches and feuds possible. You only have to make minor tweaks and set them up for success. Instead, he breaks them down and builds them back up to even less success outside of a few notable examples. I wouldn't even say Keith Lee is the perfect example, more so Shayna Bayzler is. She was ready made to take the reigns from Becky and be one of the pillars of that division. Instead, she lost the Rumble, lost at Mania and disappeared for months until winning the tag titles. I think an interesting argument to have then (and nor saying I'm making it) is should Vince and Triple H streamline NXT. Since it is clear that the creative of NXT and the Creative of the main roster both have different ideas on what to do with certain acts. If they do that, you're going to lose a lot of talent Gargano and Ciampa are the faces of we don't ever want to be on the roster of RAW/SD full time. The pandemic f***ed NXT in a way that I keep going back to. They were at least supposed to be minimally touring this year to get that "3rd brand" label to stick. They want to be their own thing and have talent stick to them and not be on the whim of Vince Is HHH always right with how he handles talent in NXT, hell no. But, that freedom they get down there means a lot and they are still under the WWE banner and get all those bells and whistles. If wrestlers feel like they are going to be stuck in a hole from the min they sign, then they are going to consider their options It is why HHH wants to make NXT global. That's talent he can use as he does with guys coming over from the UK or moving people to the UK brand. People just don't want the "Vince way" of doing things as seen with WALTER. He has no desire to move to America or join RAW/SD. Look at his SvS last year and I don't blame him at all
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Dec 11, 2020 16:26:58 GMT -5
I still believe going back to PC doesnt mean having a good workrate,or being safe in the ring. It is about working the WWE Style.Which guys like Otis and Keith Lee definitely break the mold of. That's def part of it too but Otis has been on the main roster for a good min so that shouldn't be as much a problem
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Dec 11, 2020 16:35:26 GMT -5
Meanwhile... The real killer with all of this is that from the moment she got called up, people said she needed more time and was too hastily dragged into that position. She's one of the biggest victims of how NXT isn't giving people enough time to develop, but unlike say Carmella, she's an active danger to those she gets in the ring with. Damning Otis back to the drawing board while letting Nia keep doing the shit she keeps doing is insane and betrays the double-standard of just how little Vince actually cares abotu the women in any practical terms.
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Post by sportatorium on Dec 11, 2020 16:48:35 GMT -5
Keith Lee has wrestled everywhere and if you think he isn’t ready for TV, then there’s something wrong with your TV show. The guy can big man bump like Bossman or Sgt Slaughter or can work offense like someone had his size. I have no idea what a wrestling company would want him to improve on the ring.
Otis- who knows. Vince seems like the type of he saw Otis get a little sloppy once, then it’s goi g to be that way forever.
The others- this is what happens when there aren’t house shows or any chance for them to get reps in the ring.
As others have pointed out- this is from the man who features Nia Jax & Lana every week as well as his doofus son who can’t work to save his own life outside of jumping off stuff.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2020 16:56:25 GMT -5
Yes... Safer like... We need to ban Nia Jax injury pics on this site. Shit looks so rough even years later.
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metylerca
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Post by metylerca on Dec 11, 2020 17:08:28 GMT -5
If only there was some kind of system in place where less experienced talents could hone their craft without being exposed in front of millions. A developmental system, if you will. NXT is for ladder matches and themed episodes to erode AEW ratings. No 'developing' going on there. Time to open up ECW again for that.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Dec 11, 2020 17:11:48 GMT -5
Meanwhile... The real killer with all of this is that from the moment she got called up, people said she needed more time and was too hastily dragged into that position. She's one of the biggest victims of how NXT isn't giving people enough time to develop, but unlike say Carmella, she's an active danger to those she gets in the ring with. Damning Otis back to the drawing board while letting Nia keep doing the shit she keeps doing is insane and betrays the double-standard of just how little Vince actually cares abotu the women in any practical terms. And Nia was actually improving in NXT and took two steps backwards once she got called up. She was brought up at least a year too soon. She has presence, she's pretty, you can do stuff with her if they took their time but instead because she is so damn dangerous they have to lean on real life heat for her to mean something Look at Raquel in NXT. She is leaps and bounds better then what she was at the MYC. Put her with Dakota and allowed her to slowly get more and more comfortable. Put her in the ring with great talents to help her and make her comfortable. When she eventually gets to the main roster she can be booked like a beast and not hurt people But Nia at this point is this done. Before the knee injuries, she could at least bump and move well for a girl her size. You don't see her taking that top rope bump anymore. She's way too slow. Her value is the fans legit hating her and that's really not a recipe for success when even the slightest mistake can turn shit sideways
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Post by Johawn on Dec 11, 2020 17:12:11 GMT -5
I dunno. Devils advocating (or just thinking different idk) a few things spring to my mind.
First - I saw a point made about HHH trusting his guys vs Vince wanting them to work a certain way. As I understand it, NXT is just piling up with injuries week on week. Maybe that's main roster, too, I'm not sure, but my perception is that it's a problem in NXT and AEW to varying extents. Aside from "I want wrestlers to be healthy and live long lives and make money for a long time and be happy", it's also a nightmare trying to make longterm plans if people are forgetting that this is meant to be fake and f***ing each other up every week.
Second - whether my customers like it or not, as a manager I have my team operate in a certain way according to policies, good practice, efficiencies, and my personal taste. If a customer doesn't like their service obviously I have to listen but ultimately I have my guys work in a way that makes sense balancing everything that feeds into us, and customers are a big part of that but not the ONLY part. So if one of my team is getting great feedback from our customers but is failing in other areas, I will address it and work to mould them to fit what's needed. So you, the customer, might love Keith Lee. I, Vince McMahon, probably know this, but I get told he's unsafe, he's pissing off his colleagues, he's late - anything that I feel is important. I'll address that so he's able to serve his complete purpose in his role.
And third - someone said something about WWE ruining indie guys. I don't buy that fully. I think WWE has some of that responsibility - talent isn't cheap, they should teach them to work safely and with a view to longevity. I think the talent often has an equal or greater share of the responsibility. You go nuts and break your back on the indies to get noticed. Once you've got the contract and the money comes in, it can end at any time. I know I'd slow it down and take some care and get as many years of that money as I could.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Dec 11, 2020 17:16:09 GMT -5
And third - someone said something about WWE ruining indie guys. I don't buy that fully. I think WWE has some of that responsibility - talent isn't cheap, they should teach them to work safely and with a view to longevity. I think the talent often has an equal or greater share of the responsibility. You go nuts and break your back on the indies to get noticed. Once you've got the contract and the money comes in, it can end at any time. I know I'd slow it down and take some care and get as many years of that money as I could. When people talk about WWE ruining indie wrestlers they're almost never talking about them not doing crazy high spot matches every week. Safety is not the area where the system has failed anybody.
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Perd
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Post by Perd on Dec 11, 2020 17:32:21 GMT -5
It’s pretty impressive that Vince can still throw Finlay at his age.
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Post by Bo Rida on Dec 11, 2020 17:36:15 GMT -5
I dunno. Devils advocating (or just thinking different idk) a few things spring to my mind. First - I saw a point made about HHH trusting his guys vs Vince wanting them to work a certain way. As I understand it, NXT is just piling up with injuries week on week. Maybe that's main roster, too, I'm not sure, but my perception is that it's a problem in NXT and AEW to varying extents. Aside from "I want wrestlers to be healthy and live long lives and make money for a long time and be happy", it's also a nightmare trying to make longterm plans if people are forgetting that this is meant to be fake and f***ing each other up every week. Some bumps are idiotic. There was an dynamite match recently where Hangman Page got pushed from the turnbuckle and backbumped in the apron. As a midmatch nothing spot. Why take that risk? Another that stands out is Dijakovic doing a headfirst flip to Lee sitting on a chair on the outside of the ring. Sasha has always been really bad for it too and that seems to have inspired some of the nxt women to take similar dumb risks. I think it's probably more style than safety in this instance (eg. take your time) but I'm all for them making people think twice about some spots.
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