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Post by eJm on Aug 27, 2021 23:41:57 GMT -5
I don’t know what I expected. I mean, you work for that company, you toe the party line regardless of whether you believe it or not. Joe had the opportunity to take his chances elsewhere and say no when they came back to him after they fired him, so I don’t feel bad for him here. That’s not really toeing the line, though. You have PR people to help you toe the company line and not come off as you and the company having sour grapes. And that’s not to say it happens in entertainment, look at the recent “celebrities that don’t bathe” thing as something any good agent would have nipped right in the bud right away instead of let as many people admit that as they did.
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Post by Display Name on Aug 28, 2021 0:38:45 GMT -5
Totally agree with him. What I always liked about the big companies in the past is the exclusivity with talent.
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Post by facethatrunstheplace on Aug 28, 2021 1:07:29 GMT -5
Yep, this is a stupid thing to say due to the example that he gave. As several people have said player loans are a thing in Football/Soccer. And there are times when clubs will loan players to their rival teams so it was a terrible example. I know that it's been a thing in the past, but I'm really enjoying the forbidden door that AEW has it makes things so exciting. For example, I'm looking forward to seeing a match between CM Punk and Will Ospreay.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Aug 28, 2021 1:20:32 GMT -5
I don’t know what I expected. I mean, you work for that company, you toe the party line regardless of whether you believe it or not. Joe had the opportunity to take his chances elsewhere and say no when they came back to him after they fired him, so I don’t feel bad for him here. That’s not really toeing the line, though. You have PR people to help you toe the company line and not come off as you and the company having sour grapes. And that’s not to say it happens in entertainment, look at the recent “celebrities that don’t bathe” thing as something any good agent would have nipped right in the bud right away instead of let as many people admit that as they did. And it doesnt help that the WWE seems to have an way above average of wrestlers coming like that. Sometimes other wrestlers in other companies say dumb stuff,but it is way above average.Or any another entertainment media I think.
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Post by humanoid33 on Aug 28, 2021 1:31:42 GMT -5
I don’t really agree with him. I’ll give an example of how talent sharing worked well for ECW-WWE in the 90’s. Al Snow was someone that was going nowhere in WWF, he gets sent to ECW, finds a character that works for him and then gets to do the gimmick on a much larger stage in WWF.
Talent sharing if done right, could solve a lot of problems for wrestling companies. It’s just not going to be possible with WWE now because they think they’re too good for the wrestling business, they’re in the “entertainment” business after all.
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Post by Heartbreaker on Aug 28, 2021 1:38:31 GMT -5
Joey JoJo don't wanna get fired again.
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Post by Mozenrath on Aug 28, 2021 2:57:57 GMT -5
Totally agree with him. What I always liked about the big companies in the past is the exclusivity with talent. He worked in TNA and ROH when both used NJPW or NOAH talent, often against him. He performed for NOAH in large part because Japanese companies have been all about guests for longer than he's even been alive. What he's saying is absolute gibberish, is the issue. Like, it specifically being him is what makes this so farcical.
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Post by freeze Austin on Aug 28, 2021 3:01:53 GMT -5
I mean I get that he has to say that because the company he's with isn't in favor of opening "the forbidden door" and their main competitor is starting to attract talent because they have embraced opening "the forbidden door", most notably signing one of the guys who mainevented Wrestlemania this year specifically because they offered him that opportunity as part of his contract, but I can't even see where he's coming from here.
Like a bunch of the comments here are "I can see his point"... and I'm like, I'm glad someone can because this dude who has previously benefited from deals like this between companies and is comparing it to a sport that literally loans out players has completely lost me.
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Post by HMARK Center on Aug 28, 2021 6:48:37 GMT -5
To be fair on the ROH comparisons, when Joe was in ROH he was still an independent wrestler, and while Jushin Lyger has always been affiliated with NJPW his international bookings have usually been him being allowed to act independently, as well (hence his NXT appearance). In that sense it's less "forbidden door" and more just bringing in people who tell you they're free that weekend.
But yes, Joe then signed with TNA and as part of that contract got to work with Pro Wrestling NOAH, including a big main event against Misawa in Japan. He's definitely benefitted from companies cooperating.
And yeah, ultimately there's nothing good that comes out of exclusivity for us, as fans; wrestling is a storytelling medium, and having as many people and places available to tell more stories with is a great thing to have. Beyond that, as a fan I want to be able to see my favorites even if I'm not directly following the primary company they're signed to most of the time; one of my big heartbreaks as a fan back in the day was having to see Punk and Bryan Danielson go to WWE, because I knew I wouldn't follow them there and there was no chance they'd show up in a promotion I watched so long as they were signed there.
Like, I watch a lot of NJPW and AEW, but I'll be damned if I'm not glad Josh Alexander has shown up on NJPW-US from Impact, thus opening the possibility that he could do more with that promotion. I'll also be damned if NJPW booking Marufuji and Nakajima from NOAH into G1 26 wasn't absolutely incredible (granted, NJPW had a stake in NOAH at that point, so not the best example), and that it's fun when New Japan brings an outside name or two in for the big tournament.
So yeah, I don't see his point at all. I get a promotion having a stable of talent that are highly associated with that promotion, and booking those people strong to maintain their statuses as the faces of that company, but I don't get arguing that they shouldn't appear elsewhere.
Especially since, y'know, you're all supposed to be independent contractors.
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Post by TheMediocreWarrior on Aug 28, 2021 8:07:37 GMT -5
I completely disagree with him. Unless two wrestling shows are on at the same time, I don't think there should be an issue. WWE has had a strangle hold on the industry for decades, it makes sense for the smaller companies to have partnerships and help one another out.
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mc74
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Post by mc74 on Aug 28, 2021 10:19:00 GMT -5
Joe's entitled to his opinion and I'll respect that, but I disagree with him here, for there are many benefits that come with working with other promotions.
-The limits of your product expand outside outside of your promotion, giving you that big fight feel in wrestling.
-The potential amount of exposure you could gain from being associated with other promotions.
-Talent sharing. This is the big one for a number of reasons.
1) You can use it as a way to develop wrestlers by sending them out on loan.
2) The wrestlers themselves have more freedom to do dates with the other companies involved.
3) It gives you more options on the table in the event you have too much going on, so instead of having them sitting at home or in the back doing nothing, you can send them out on loan as a way to give them something to do.
4) It can help mitigate the risk of overexposure. Having more options to work with also means you can better rotate characters in and out, keeping things fresh for the audience. Something AEW does a great job of.
5) It exposes the audience to various styles of wrestling. Also, being more open to different styles of wrestling does better for a wrestler's development in the long run. A stark contrast to what we see from WWE's stubborn approach of drilling their own particular style into its wrestlers.
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Post by Hypnosis on Aug 28, 2021 11:19:44 GMT -5
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Post by Wieners=$$$ on Aug 28, 2021 11:54:03 GMT -5
I understand this point. It has happened a lot in the past. For example, the ROH/CZW war in '06 that Joe was a part of, albeit amazing for fans and ROH, didn't make CZW look great in the end. Ultimately, there needs to be visable winners and losers in this business, and it is up to companies working together and negotiating storylines and talent exchanges to benefit both in the end. It is not impossible, and I think that talent need to be very involved in negotiations for this to work.
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Post by Kalmia on Aug 28, 2021 12:09:39 GMT -5
The whole quote is a lot better, IMO. Politics can be an issue and it's amazing that the current Forbidden Door talent swaps have progressed with seemingly no issues so far. I can't see WWE playing as nice with others as AEW, Impact, NJPW, etc have been.
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Post by warden on Aug 28, 2021 12:20:25 GMT -5
You tell'em joe
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Aug 28, 2021 14:00:06 GMT -5
I understand this point. It has happened a lot in the past. For example, the ROH/CZW war in '06 that Joe was a part of, albeit amazing for fans and ROH, didn't make CZW look great in the end. Ultimately, there needs to be visable winners and losers in this business, and it is up to companies working together and negotiating storylines and talent exchanges to benefit both in the end. It is not impossible, and I think that talent need to be very involved in negotiations for this to work. I just remember the TNA vs. RoH thing that TNA pitched at one point and it was basically... your guys just show up and look like the biggest bunch of losers ever... why don't you want to do it? You'll be getting exposure on our tv show! (this was after they were already off Spike where that might have actually mattered)
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Post by Wieners=$$$ on Aug 28, 2021 14:26:35 GMT -5
I understand this point. It has happened a lot in the past. For example, the ROH/CZW war in '06 that Joe was a part of, albeit amazing for fans and ROH, didn't make CZW look great in the end. Ultimately, there needs to be visable winners and losers in this business, and it is up to companies working together and negotiating storylines and talent exchanges to benefit both in the end. It is not impossible, and I think that talent need to be very involved in negotiations for this to work. I just remember the TNA vs. RoH thing that TNA pitched at one point and it was basically... your guys just show up and look like the biggest bunch of losers ever... why don't you want to do it? You'll be getting exposure on our tv show! (this was after they were already off Spike where that might have actually mattered) That's right. I forget about that almost being something haha. ROH at the time was already working with NJPW too, whom also didn't have great exposure with TNA. Funny how many times TNA tried to undercut ROH over the years.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Aug 28, 2021 15:08:55 GMT -5
I understand this point. It has happened a lot in the past. For example, the ROH/CZW war in '06 that Joe was a part of, albeit amazing for fans and ROH, didn't make CZW look great in the end. Ultimately, there needs to be visable winners and losers in this business, and it is up to companies working together and negotiating storylines and talent exchanges to benefit both in the end. It is not impossible, and I think that talent need to be very involved in negotiations for this to work. I just remember the TNA vs. RoH thing that TNA pitched at one point and it was basically... your guys just show up and look like the biggest bunch of losers ever... why don't you want to do it? You'll be getting exposure on our tv show! (this was after they were already off Spike where that might have actually mattered) And that's where the contrast to their approach now really stands clear. Interpromotional angles and invasions have to have a decisive loser. Talent sharing agreements, cameos, and cross-promotion? Not so much. You can run "This person is here for a big showcase match to put over one of our talents". You can run "this tag team from somewhere else is here for a few months". Their top title is in the midst of being held by AEW guys, but it got a lot of exposure on that title changing hands and they're going to have the title get back into the hands of someone at home and it'll be a big dea. Their women's champion just went to work Triplemania and now holds the Reina de Reinas title in addition to their own. If you can establish a clear give and take with your partners and book angles on a more granular level through these deals and not use the word 'invasion' anywhere, there's a lot of ways to build things up, and that's so far what these alliances have provided. Moxley working New Japan legends toward an eventual Tanahashi match? Great. Moxley fighting eight Bullet Club guys who fly over every week to do Bullet Club stuff while they talk about how AEW belongs to them now? That'd suck a lot.
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mc74
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Post by mc74 on Aug 28, 2021 17:46:14 GMT -5
I just remember the TNA vs. RoH thing that TNA pitched at one point and it was basically... your guys just show up and look like the biggest bunch of losers ever... why don't you want to do it? You'll be getting exposure on our tv show! (this was after they were already off Spike where that might have actually mattered) And that's where the contrast to their approach now really stands clear. Interpromotional angles and invasions have to have a decisive loser. Talent sharing agreements, cameos, and cross-promotion? Not so much. You can run "This person is here for a big showcase match to put over one of our talents". You can run "this tag team from somewhere else is here for a few months". Their top title is in the midst of being held by AEW guys, but it got a lot of exposure on that title changing hands and they're going to have the title get back into the hands of someone at home and it'll be a big dea. Their women's champion just went to work Triplemania and now holds the Reina de Reinas title in addition to their own. If you can establish a clear give and take with your partners and book angles on a more granular level through these deals and not use the word 'invasion' anywhere, there's a lot of ways to build things up, and that's so far what these alliances have provided. Moxley working New Japan legends toward an eventual Tanahashi match? Great. Moxley fighting eight Bullet Club guys who fly over every week to do Bullet Club stuff while they talk about how AEW belongs to them now? That'd suck a lot. The way AEW is going about it is looking to be the right way to do it. None of this invasion crap, but rather a system in place to help develop talent, promote each company involved, expose the audience to various styles of wrestling, and provide a greater opportunity to build towards what could be some rather promising match-ups, some of which could potentially help draw in more interest.
And on the topic of the Impact title for a sec, having Christian win it from Omega did wonders for Impact. Besides the history behind Christian Cage in Impact, you know Christian is the kind of guy who doesn't mind putting someone over, and you also know he can still put on a damn good match. What they're setting up here is a passing of the torch. When Christian drops the belt, it's going to be a big deal.
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Post by nisidhe on Aug 28, 2021 20:52:51 GMT -5
I'll be interested in what WWE superstars have to say about the business outside WWE when they're outside WWE. Until then, all we can reasonably hope to get from them is the company line (or variations on it.)
The current arrangement can work well - I'm not keen on titles moving across promotions but there are ways to protect them, and non-title feuds can certainly raise the profile of multiple promotions if done right.
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