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Post by Lizuka #BLM on Mar 20, 2022 18:15:44 GMT -5
Shelton Benjamin. I enjoyed JBL's title reign. Whatever his flaws as a person, he understood the idea of a non-monster heel champion is to look beatable and to hold on by the skin of their teeth, and he played that well in a depleted period for Smackdown. He never had any problem showing ass or looking ridiculous, and I fondly remember him drunkenly threatening an inflatable Godzilla in his underwear (which was all a ruse to sucker Big Show, which... didn't work). You really think Shelton benefit from it? Yeah he got the I-C title but he never went all Main Event from it. He was back down the card after it. Even then, nobody gave a f*** about Shelton before the stuff with Triple H. It really did make him as a singles guy, even if they never did go all the way with it.
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Post by Limity (BLM) on Mar 20, 2022 18:16:29 GMT -5
Outside of the end with Batista, name one face who got over because of working with HHH or benefit from it. The answer is really nobody. Shelton Benjamin. I enjoyed JBL's title reign. Whatever his flaws as a person, he understood the idea of a non-monster heel champion is to look beatable and to hold on by the skin of their teeth, and he played that well in a depleted period for Smackdown. He never had any problem showing ass or looking ridiculous, and I fondly remember him drunkenly threatening an inflatable Godzilla in his underwear (which was all a ruse to sucker Big Show, which... didn't work). He might be the only one that was made to look strong against Triple H. Unfortunately there wasn't any follow through, as RAW at the time was dogshit when it came to establishing new wrestlers on that brand. Hell Shelton even had that amazingly competitive match with HBK at the time. It's such a shame none of that was capitalized on.
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Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby
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Post by Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby on Mar 20, 2022 18:24:12 GMT -5
The JBL character worked a lot better as a former champion than it did while he actually was champion. I feel like we need more recognition overall that there are some wrestlers who will be better off for the rest of their career off of one title win, but should really not hold the belt for any length of time.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2022 18:27:13 GMT -5
Shelton Benjamin. I enjoyed JBL's title reign. Whatever his flaws as a person, he understood the idea of a non-monster heel champion is to look beatable and to hold on by the skin of their teeth, and he played that well in a depleted period for Smackdown. He never had any problem showing ass or looking ridiculous, and I fondly remember him drunkenly threatening an inflatable Godzilla in his underwear (which was all a ruse to sucker Big Show, which... didn't work). You really think Shelton benefit from it? Yeah he got the I-C title but he never went all Main Event from it. He was back down the card after it. Shelton Benjamin got, like, one clean win over Triple H, but that never translated to world title matches or anything. Hell, if anything, I'd say Shelton got punished for getting a clean win over Triple H. As for JBL, if someone had to tell me who had to be WWE Champion besides him, Booker T and his "I hate SmackDown, what a dump" character would suit perfectly given how you had an established name on RAW coming over and griping about the state of his career then doing something about it. Ironically, two years later that would be the very thing that would result in the King Booker character, so that is the mindset behind it. But, staying on topic, I think the reign was serviceable but also endemic of the sorry position SmackDown was in during much of 2004 where the roster was bare and they decided the only solution was "eh, f*** it, why waste talent on this show?". Certainly did not help TV at the time.
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Post by sungod2020 on Mar 20, 2022 18:35:09 GMT -5
nope it was like Jinder's run with the belt, only Bradshaw had some credibility before randomly getting a title run before solidifying himself as a main event singles wrestler I don't know if that's fair, JBL was objectively better than Jinder. Even if you want to put their in-ring stuff on the same level, JBL could promo, and had a stronger main event personality and presence. At the time Bradshaw won the belt, it was a shocking result, but he didn't seem completely out of place in a world title match compared to Jinder, who never got there. Plus JBL got over as part of the APA, so it wasn't as random of Jinder's who was a jobber for YEARS then overnight became a World title contender and then champion. Yeah, Bradshaw's case was out of no where and questionable at the time, but I feel he eventually made his character work, even if it wasn't with the best roster at the time. By the time he made it to Wrestlemania, he didn't feel out of place semi-main eventing. I'm sure if he built his way up to US champion and then WWE, it would've been better received.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Mar 20, 2022 18:58:18 GMT -5
JBL had beaten people before and was presented pretty credibly for years by the time he went solo heel.
Jinder got a title shot off of not even beating Finn Balor, but giving him some welts in a match. No, really, that was basically the only thing he'd really done as a singles wrestler before being moved to Smackdown and immediately pushed. I'm not sure I've ever seen anything quite like it.
Like, yeah, he'd had some success with 3MB, but they were never presented as a credible threat, and the Khali feud never really did much to position him as a big deal, either.
JBL at least had one of the most protected finishers in WWE history. Like, Batista and maaaaybe Cena have kicked out of it, and that genuinely might be it.
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Post by EvenBaldobombHasAJob on Mar 20, 2022 19:06:28 GMT -5
I don't know if that's fair, JBL was objectively better than Jinder. Even if you want to put their in-ring stuff on the same level, JBL could promo, and had a stronger main event personality and presence. At the time Bradshaw won the belt, it was a shocking result, but he didn't seem completely out of place in a world title match compared to Jinder, who never got there. Plus JBL got over as part of the APA, so it wasn't as random of Jinder's who was a jobber for YEARS then overnight became a World title contender and then champion. Yeah, Bradshaw's case was out of no where and questionable at the time, but I feel he eventually made his character work, even if it wasn't with the best roster at the time. By the time he made it to Wrestlemania, he didn't feel out of place semi-main eventing. I'm sure if he built his way up to US champion and then WWE, it would've been better received. It's also worth noting that Bradshaw was a midcarder but he was always heavily protected as a midcard guy and was usually over at least to some degree. Plus it was already public knowledge that he was brilliant at investing money, so the character change wasn't out of left field. Jinder had none of that.
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Post by Jindrak Mark on Mar 20, 2022 19:46:44 GMT -5
Shelton Benjamin. I enjoyed JBL's title reign. Whatever his flaws as a person, he understood the idea of a non-monster heel champion is to look beatable and to hold on by the skin of their teeth, and he played that well in a depleted period for Smackdown. He never had any problem showing ass or looking ridiculous, and I fondly remember him drunkenly threatening an inflatable Godzilla in his underwear (which was all a ruse to sucker Big Show, which... didn't work). You really think Shelton benefit from it? Yeah he got the I-C title but he never went all Main Event from it. He was back down the card after it. The WGTT were just making up the numbers and doing little of note in their last 6 months on Smackdown. The night before he beat HHH he was in a throwaway tag match won by a washed up Rikishi and Scotty and got no reaction. 24 hours later he gets a massive pop for beating HHH. He definitely benefited from it. It immediately established him as one of the top faces on the show. He beat Flair at the next PPV. Had a good feud with Orton. Beat Jericho for the IC title and had a good run with it. Stole the show in the first MITB match. That HBK match. Dropped the title to Carlito in another good IC feud. He had a great run for 12-18 months until they ruined him with the mother thing.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Mar 20, 2022 22:09:24 GMT -5
Plus JBL got over as part of the APA, so it wasn't as random of Jinder's who was a jobber for YEARS then overnight became a World title contender and then champion. Yeah, Bradshaw's case was out of no where and questionable at the time, but I feel he eventually made his character work, even if it wasn't with the best roster at the time. By the time he made it to Wrestlemania, he didn't feel out of place semi-main eventing. I'm sure if he built his way up to US champion and then WWE, it would've been better received. It's also worth noting that Bradshaw was a midcarder but he was always heavily protected as a midcard guy and was usually over at least to some degree. Plus it was already public knowledge that he was brilliant at investing money, so the character change wasn't out of left field. Jinder had none of that. Yep, along with Ron Simmons' retirement meaning they could "fire" him and have Bradshaw take the heat for not standing up for him.
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chazraps
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Post by chazraps on Mar 20, 2022 22:15:31 GMT -5
From No Mercy 2004 onward - yes. They finally got it when they had him go full-Bush Era Republican in his heeldom.
Prior to that, from the initial character redebut through August/September 2004 it was bad then and worse in retrospect. Everyone working around him in made it better than it was, but that initial JR Ewing character was bad.
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Blade
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Post by Blade on Mar 20, 2022 23:03:14 GMT -5
You really think Shelton benefit from it? Yeah he got the I-C title but he never went all Main Event from it. He was back down the card after it. Shelton was literally a nobody when he walked onto RAW, just a tag team guy. HHH put him over clean, then put him over again. This was HUGE and the crowd reacted huge for it. He beat Jericho within a month or two for the IC title. Not reaching the main event doesn't mean he wasn't elevated. Without HHH putting him over, Shelton could be a footnote in history, another athletic guy that could wrestle from a broken up tag team that jobbed out and vanished. There's no shortage of them.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Mar 20, 2022 23:03:18 GMT -5
It’s the kind of thing that is probably more appreciated in hindsight once you know what it led to as opposed to living through it in real time. In real time, it’s a pompous rich white guy that doesn’t deserve to be champion (both in kayfabe and IRL depending on how much you knew about him as a backstage bully or how much you valued workrate over character work) somehow being champion longer than anyone had been since the New Generation. Peak “misery booking” in the way that you guys choose to use it.
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Blade
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Post by Blade on Mar 20, 2022 23:07:45 GMT -5
It’s the kind of thing that is probably more appreciated in hindsight once you know what it led to as opposed to living through it in real time. In real time, it’s a pompous rich white guy that doesn’t deserve to be champion (both in kayfabe and IRL depending on how much you knew about him as a backstage bully or how much you valued workrate over character work) somehow being champion longer than anyone had been since the New Generation. Peak “misery booking” in the way that you guys choose to use it. Well, JBL never won clean or looked stronger than his opponent, which makes him a bit of a different beast than Roman (or Britt Baker).
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Mar 21, 2022 2:41:11 GMT -5
It holds up much better today because you know the ending and can skip whatever you want.
This is why judging wrestling especially doesn't really work in hindsight when it comes to storylines. I would happily rewatch 2013-14 Raw and the PPVs to build up to Mania 30 and see Bryan win at the end. At the time, it was excruciating.
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Feyrhausen
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Post by Feyrhausen on Mar 21, 2022 3:26:44 GMT -5
You really think Shelton benefit from it? Yeah he got the I-C title but he never went all Main Event from it. He was back down the card after it. Shelton was literally a nobody when he walked onto RAW, just a tag team guy. HHH put him over clean, then put him over again. This was HUGE and the crowd reacted huge for it. He beat Jericho within a month or two for the IC title. Not reaching the main event doesn't mean he wasn't elevated. Without HHH putting him over, Shelton could be a footnote in history, another athletic guy that could wrestle from a broken up tag team that jobbed out and vanished. There's no shortage of them. It was closer to 6 months before we won the IC title. After beating H he lost in a PPV feud against Orton then was out with a hand injury.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Mar 21, 2022 3:44:18 GMT -5
It holds up much better today because you know the ending and can skip whatever you want. This is why judging wrestling especially doesn't really work in hindsight when it comes to storylines. I would happily rewatch 2013-14 Raw and the PPVs to build up to Mania 30 and see Bryan win at the end. At the time, it was excruciating. This is where WWE's lack of goodwill (entirely "earned", just to make clear before I make my point) really comes back to bite them. AEW can afford to do conventional storytelling (the babyfaces win some, the heels win some, then we reach a climax) and even make some mistakes, because the fans are confident enough that it will end in a satisfying conclusion. WWE, because their goodwill is so deep in the toilet and the idea that they're going to f*** it up at some arbitrary point is so deeply ingrained, they are expected to hit perfection in every segment for people to even consider sticking with it, because every segment is taken individually as a potential jumping off point for the entire storyline.
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Sephiroth
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Post by Sephiroth on Mar 21, 2022 6:23:35 GMT -5
It was a very awkward transition but once JBL found his stride he played an excellent heel champion.
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Post by 'Foretold' Joker on Mar 21, 2022 6:37:28 GMT -5
It saved Bradshaw's career and helped cement John Cena as a main event guy. So yeah I'd say it holds up well enough. It had it's role to play.
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Post by sungod2020 on Mar 21, 2022 7:00:55 GMT -5
JBL had beaten people before and was presented pretty credibly for years by the time he went solo heel. Jinder got a title shot off of not even beating Finn Balor, but giving him some welts in a match. No, really, that was basically the only thing he'd really done as a singles wrestler before being moved to Smackdown and immediately pushed. I'm not sure I've ever seen anything quite like it. Like, yeah, he'd had some success with 3MB, but they were never presented as a credible threat, and the Khali feud never really did much to position him as a big deal, either. JBL at least had one of the most protected finishers in WWE history. Like, Batista and maaaaybe Cena have kicked out of it, and that genuinely might be it. What do you mean exactly by success? He was playing second(possibly third) fiddle in a stable lead by a semi-jobber. They never over, never won any gold, and were jobbing to Los Matadores(and even El Torito) at every turn before getting pink slipped. The closest I can think of to him being successful in the group was keeping him on the payroll longer than someone of his stature should've been. But yeah, there was no indication that Jinder was ever going to rise above lower midcarder, let alone WWE champion and it's no surprise once he lost the belt to AJ Styles, he slipped further and further down the card, back to his original position on the card where he belonged. I do feel however if they insisted of giving Jinder an out-of-nowhere push, they should've aimed for a test run with the US/IC title first and see where it went instead of giving him this monster push for a market that didn't care about wrestling to begin with, but that's another story.
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Post by héad.casé on Mar 21, 2022 7:37:54 GMT -5
I haven’t seen any of JBL’s run since it actually happened, so I don’t know if I can speak on how it holds up now, but once JBL hit his stride he was a lot of fun. I was on board when he changed to JBL, as someone said it was public knowledge that he was brilliant with finances.
Still never wanted him to beat Eddie though.
I do remember there was a celebration segment the SmackDown after he beat Eddie at the Bash and he was walking down the aisle glad handing like a politician and taking a small bottle of hand sanitiser out after every handshake. I thought that was great.
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