Does the 2004-05 JBL WWE title reign hold up well today?

[Mozenrath]

Mar 21, 2022 7:00:55 GMT -5 sungod2020 said:

Mar 20, 2022 18:58:18 GMT -5 Mozenrath said:

JBL had beaten people before and was presented pretty credibly for years by the time he went solo heel.

Jinder got a title shot off of not even beating Finn Balor, but giving him some welts in a match. No, really, that was basically the only thing he'd really done as a singles wrestler before being moved to Smackdown and immediately pushed. I'm not sure I've ever seen anything quite like it.

Like, yeah, he'd had some success with 3MB, but they were never presented as a credible threat, and the Khali feud never really did much to position him as a big deal, either.

JBL at least had one of the most protected finishers in WWE history. Like, Batista and maaaaybe Cena have kicked out of it, and that genuinely might be it.

What do you mean exactly by success? He was playing second(possibly third) fiddle in a stable lead by a semi-jobber. They never over, never won any gold, and were jobbing to Los Matadores(and even El Torito) at every turn before getting pink slipped. The closest I can think of to him being successful in the group was keeping him on the payroll longer than someone of his stature should've been. 

But yeah, there was no indication that Jinder was ever going to rise above lower midcarder, let alone WWE champion and it's no surprise once he lost the belt to AJ Styles, he slipped further and further down the card, back to his original position on the card where he belonged. 

I do feel however if they insisted of giving Jinder an out-of-nowhere push, they should've aimed for a test run with the US/IC title first and see where it went instead of giving him this monster push for a market that didn't care about wrestling to begin with, but that's another story.

I am being charitable about success and am mostly just talking about him getting onto the shows, like for the Torito feud.

[Can you afford to pay me, Gah]

Mar 20, 2022 23:03:14 GMT -5 Blade said:

Mar 20, 2022 17:50:23 GMT -5 Can you afford to pay me, Gah said:

You really think Shelton benefit from it? Yeah he got the I-C title but he never went all Main Event from it. He was back down the card after it.

Shelton was literally a nobody when he walked onto RAW, just a tag team guy. HHH put him over clean, then put him over again. This was HUGE and the crowd reacted huge for it.

He beat Jericho within a month or two for the IC title. 

Not reaching the main event doesn't mean he wasn't elevated. Without HHH putting him over, Shelton could be a footnote in history, another athletic guy that could wrestle from a broken up tag team that jobbed out and vanished. There's no shortage of them.

More like Six months he beat Jericho. He beat Flair, lost to Orton. Yeah ok, he had some highlight real moments with MITB that he and being the guy HBK kicked in the face in a counter. Great matches but a lot of people had great matches but still went MIA. He had a year of success after that before he was back down the card. I didn't say he had to ME but when you in under 2 years back as a tag team guy? Than went to the US title and was again an after thought than get released. Yeah for a good 18 months he did something. Did it last? no.

[King Devitt]

Mar 20, 2022 13:38:07 GMT -5 chrom said:

Was bad then, still bad now

^^^

[clifford]

Great gimmick change, he killed it character wise. but he should've never been near the WWE title that fast.

However, it did give me my favourite ever end to a cage match when he beat Big Show by being chokeslammed through the ring and crawling out from under the apron.

[Magic knows Black Lives Matter]

Of course not, hahahahahaha.

I looked in disbelief at the thread title for a minute. Hindsight can save a lot but nah, the reign bricked at the time and literally the only thing good about it was it led right into the crowning of WWE’s next megastar.

Bad matches, boring segments, f***ing goose stepping for heat, you’ve got to be kidding me???

[Instant Classic]

I was only 9 when it happened so it didn’t strike me as odd that he won it. But if that were to happen today I’d be shocked as hell.

[Deleted]

In retrospect he was a great character, but god it was awful at the time. His matches mostly sucked, the Undertaker feud was dreadful and the title reign completely ran out of steam by about November and was dragged out to give Cena the win at wrestlemania in an underwhelming match with a relatively flat reaction.

[Magnus the Magnificent]

Just a
Big
Loser


The barb wire cage match against Big Show was fun, with a great finish.

[4real]

When he won the title I thought WWE had hit their biggest low to be honest. Couldn’t take him seriously as Champion.

By the end of the year though I think he grew into it well. I still think he probably should have had a US Title run before they tried to push him to main event level. Same with Jinder really.

[This Player Hating Mothman]

Mar 21, 2022 9:38:49 GMT -5 Magic knows Black Lives Matter said:

Of course not, hahahahahaha.

I looked in disbelief at the thread title for a minute. Hindsight can save a lot but nah, the reign bricked at the time and literally the only thing good about it was it led right into the crowning of WWE’s next megastar.

Bad matches, boring segments, f***ing goose stepping for heat, you’ve got to be kidding me???

When I think things that have aged well going into the modern day and benefit from hindsight, I think people in the '00s ironically doing nazi shit to be edgy. That's something that looking back had absolutely no downsides in a societal context and led to absolutely nothing bad hapening.

[jason1980s]

I hadn't followed WWF/WWE in two or three years so I was pretty surprised when I started getting DVDs in 2005 and he was champ. I really just remember him with gimmick change to gimmick change that never worked until APA. I felt the Paul Heyman One Night Stand dig was probably pretty appropriate. But on the other hand, the guy was a real life bad guy so not too hard to put him on top as such and it works.

[government mule]

It's as jarring to me as Jinder's reign was, even now.

Add me to the list of not watching regularly at that point of time so not being able to believe that f***ing Bradshaw from the Acolytes was now the undisputed champion.

[Deleted]

My problem with JBL is that he wasn't the kind of wrestler to play the type of heel he was going for.

No man that big who'd previously been known as a rough and tumble mercenary with the APA with a lariat that would take your head off is going to make sense as a chickenshit heel.

[Blade]

Mar 21, 2022 8:38:03 GMT -5 Can you afford to pay me, Gah said:

More like Six months he beat Jericho. He beat Flair, lost to Orton. Yeah ok, he had some highlight real moments with MITB that he and being the guy HBK kicked in the face in a counter. Great matches but a lot of people had great matches but still went MIA. He had a year of success after that before he was back down the card. I didn't say he had to ME but when you in under 2 years back as a tag team guy? Than went to the US title and was again an after thought than get released. Yeah for a good 18 months he did something. Did it last? no.

While I'll take my mea culpa for forgetting the timeline in which Taboo Tuesday happened, it comes down to this:

He's had a very successful career and is employed by WWE right now.

There is absolutely no guarantee any of that happens with him pinning Triple H clean (and then beating him again in the rematch).

It was as textbook an elevation as wrestling gets: nobody comes out of nowhere, pins the former world champ and puts himself on the map.

[Blade]

Mar 21, 2022 13:52:38 GMT -5 This Player Hating Mothman said:

Mar 21, 2022 9:38:49 GMT -5 Magic knows Black Lives Matter said:

Of course not, hahahahahaha.

I looked in disbelief at the thread title for a minute. Hindsight can save a lot but nah, the reign bricked at the time and literally the only thing good about it was it led right into the crowning of WWE’s next megastar.

Bad matches, boring segments, f***ing goose stepping for heat, you’ve got to be kidding me???

When I think things that have aged well going into the modern day and benefit from hindsight, I think people in the '00s ironically doing nazi shit to be edgy. That's something that looking back had absolutely no downsides in a societal context and led to absolutely nothing bad hapening.

A heel wrestler doing a dumb stunt for heat in a house show in Germany and the edgy political corners of 4chan aren't even remotely in the same cultural realm.

You might as well reference the "Don't mention the war!" skit from Fawlty Towers (and the goosestepping for humour, come to think of it) in ominous tones.

(Also, this was not a 00s thing, it was commonplace to reference them both for jokes and throwaway villain heat for decades before that.)

[This Player Hating Mothman]

Mar 21, 2022 15:01:22 GMT -5 Blade said:

Mar 21, 2022 13:52:38 GMT -5 This Player Hating Mothman said:

When I think things that have aged well going into the modern day and benefit from hindsight, I think people in the '00s ironically doing nazi shit to be edgy. That's something that looking back had absolutely no downsides in a societal context and led to absolutely nothing bad hapening.

A heel wrestler doing a dumb stunt for heat in a house show in Germany and the edgy political corners of 4chan aren't even remotely in the same cultural realm.

You might as well reference the "Don't mention the war!" skit from Fawlty Towers (and the goosestepping for humour, come to think of it) in ominous tones.

(Also, this was not a 00s thing, it was commonplace to reference them both for jokes and throwaway villain heat for decades before that.)

Nazi shock humour was not solely a 4chan thing and maybe JBL didn't personally influence what's going on now, but hey yeah maybe with the current climate that thing doesn't sit quite so well? Maybe it's a comfort thing? Possibly? Possibly in modern eyes it's kind of beyond poor taste and into some really frustrating places.

[sungod2020]

Mar 21, 2022 14:51:05 GMT -5 Blade said:

Mar 21, 2022 8:38:03 GMT -5 Can you afford to pay me, Gah said:

More like Six months he beat Jericho. He beat Flair, lost to Orton. Yeah ok, he had some highlight real moments with MITB that he and being the guy HBK kicked in the face in a counter. Great matches but a lot of people had great matches but still went MIA. He had a year of success after that before he was back down the card. I didn't say he had to ME but when you in under 2 years back as a tag team guy? Than went to the US title and was again an after thought than get released. Yeah for a good 18 months he did something. Did it last? no.

While I'll take my mea culpa for forgetting the timeline in which Taboo Tuesday happened, it comes down to this:

He's had a very successful career and is employed by WWE right now.

There is absolutely no guarantee any of that happens with him pinning Triple H clean (and then beating him again in the rematch).

It was as textbook an elevation as wrestling gets: nobody comes out of nowhere, pins the former world champ and puts himself on the map.

What exactly can be considered a success though? I guess if WWE brought him back because he is/was a good worker and has longevity you can call him that on the business side of things, but I don't recall him being very over despite being prominently featured on TV, had interactions with major stars, was given three IC title reigns and a US one.

I mean yeah he's had his moments(such as beating Triple H and MITB with those high spots), but when it comes to being over consistently with the crowd, I don't recall and they've been pushing him for over 4 years. I guess you can bring up he was picked to take on Chris Jericho for the IC belt at Taboo Tuesday but is there any way to confirm the voting was legitimate? 

It's hard to tell if it was down to him(he came off as marble-mouth on the mic) or bad-booking, but he's an example of a guy who should be more over and successful with what he was given.

[dirtyoldman]

Mar 20, 2022 11:24:03 GMT -5 The Rick Jericho said:

I remember when it first started, it was very hard to buy. But by the time he got to Wrestlemania, he seemed legit enough to put over Cena.

So looking back 17 years later, did you enjoy this title reign?

Does it still hold up well today?

17 years ago.... that's the bit that amazes me. Doesn't time really fly.

[Feyrhausen]

Mar 21, 2022 15:08:27 GMT -5 This Player Hating Mothman said:

Mar 21, 2022 15:01:22 GMT -5 Blade said:

A heel wrestler doing a dumb stunt for heat in a house show in Germany and the edgy political corners of 4chan aren't even remotely in the same cultural realm.

You might as well reference the "Don't mention the war!" skit from Fawlty Towers (and the goosestepping for humour, come to think of it) in ominous tones.

(Also, this was not a 00s thing, it was commonplace to reference them both for jokes and throwaway villain heat for decades before that.)

Nazi shock humour was not solely a 4chan thing and maybe JBL didn't personally influence what's going on now, but hey yeah maybe with the current climate that thing doesn't sit quite so well? Maybe it's a comfort thing? Possibly? Possibly in modern eyes it's kind of beyond poor taste and into some really frustrating places.

It almost got him in some trouble in Germany. They dont like Nazi shit very much.

[Blade]

He lost his CNBC tv analyst job over it too, but them's the breaks. Live by the cheap heel heat, die by the cheap heel heat.