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Post by sungod2020 on Sept 6, 2022 9:01:03 GMT -5
As we all know, suspension of disbelief plays a crucial role in one's enjoyment of this pseudo sport. For the longest time, kayfabe has been the backbone of the business with wrestlers and promoters going out of their way to keep the illusion that what they were doing was real, even if it meant kayfabing their own family or risking their lives in the process.
What can be dismissed as hokey and nonsensical in the real world, can be explained in one way or another in the confines of the square circle. However, there's only so much one can suspend their disbelief that it can lead to questioning what their watching or struggle to come up with a explanation that makes sense in the wrestling world. What are some examples you can think of that are so absurd, you can't even justify it even in kayfabe?
No Hulk Hogan/Ultimate Warrior Rematch - At least in the WWF. At Wrestlemania VI, two of the biggest titans at the time battled it out for both the Ultimate Warriors IC championship, and Hulk Hogan's World championship. After nearly 25 minutes of nonstop action, The Bringer of Destructivity came out on top. The Hulkster, initially reluctant, eventually handed what seemed to be at the time his successor, The Ultimate Warrior his newly won WWF championship as the two embraced his victory to the delight of the fans.
Immediately afterwards, not only did WWF President Jack Tunney strip The Ultimate Warrior of his intercontinental championship, since no man(in his mind) can fulfill the obligations of being a double champion, but banned a rematch between the two due to battling it out past the point of exhaustion.
Now, the first one I can somewhat see where he's coming from(although a little flimsy), but why ban a rematch between the two? In kayfabe, you're preventing the company from making what could be millions of dollars, and if it's been heavily implied that Tunney was on the take, it would also have an impact on HIS wallet. Though given they had a rematch 8 years later in a different promotion, maybe with the benefit of hindsight, Tunney was right to ban a rematch.
MJF on Working Safe - I haven't watched AEW regularly so any knowledge I have on the product is on this very board, but I remember reading that MJF was bashing another guy(please fill me in on who) on having a habit of injuring people in his matches while he would never do such a thing.
The problem with that logic is, there shouldn't be such thing as working safely in kayfabe. The goal of a match is to incapacitate your opponent to the point where they can't answer the three count or are too weak to sustain the pain of a submission. Plus, he was a heel when he did that promo, why should he care about his opponents safety? It's just one less competitor to worry about.
Any examples you can think of?
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Post by CeilingFan on Sept 6, 2022 9:17:18 GMT -5
Vince McMahon being revealed as the "Higher Power".
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thecrusherwi
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Post by thecrusherwi on Sept 6, 2022 9:49:43 GMT -5
I never understand the matches where a guy wrestles the whole match competitively and then turns on his partner(s) at the very end. Seems like a waste of energy. Austin turning on Team WWF is one that comes to mind. Unless you just wanted to ensure the loss, it seems to make more sense to do it earlier.
There are some good examples such as Barry Windham turning on Lex Luger in 1988. The Horseman had been recruiting him to be a singles star and planting the seed that he couldn't count on Lex. Then during a grueling match where Barry and Lex are defending the tag titles against Arn and Tully, Barry needs a tag and Lex isn't there. JJ Dillon starts yelling from the outside "I told you he wouldn't be there for you". So Barry thinks it over and then turns on Lex and joins the Horseman.
Same premise with run ins. Like why did Paul Wight let Vince McMahon get beaten half to death by Steve Austin before interfering. As soon as the cage door closes, get your ass in there!
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Sept 6, 2022 9:56:49 GMT -5
Listen, Bro...
While we're here I have ALWAYS hated the "title doesn't change hands on a DQ" because it makes no f***ing sense and any real sports body would immediately strip any champ who deliberately got themselves disqualified to avoid losing.
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Post by canceled4truth on Sept 6, 2022 9:58:47 GMT -5
Kevin Nash texting himself to beat up CM Punk
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Post by Jindrak Mark on Sept 6, 2022 10:08:16 GMT -5
Almost every worked shoot gets into doesn't make sense in kayfabe territory. Goldberg being unprofessional and not going up for Kevin Nash's powerbomb and the announcers then praising Scott Steiner for doing it. There's a reason this is always brought up as one of the worst storylines in wrestling history because they literally said on air that this is all fake. Wrestlers walking out on HHH over an unsafe working environment. It made sense for the heels to do it. They were just being dicks trying to get the babyface boss fired. The problem was half of the babyface roster also walked out and looked like cowards. Of all the crazy things that have gone on in wrestling over the decades how does it make sense that the one thing that made everyone think oh no, this is too much, I don't feel safe was The Miz and R-Truth? CM Punk's pipebomb promo talking about how he's been screwed over and deserves to be the face of the company. If it was a delusional heel promo then fine but the next week the top babyface Cena came out and agreed that Punk deserved more. Punk had lost all but 1 PPV match for a year straight. In kayfabe he had a terrible win/loss record and had no business being a top 5 guy in the company, much less number one, why were babyfaces agreeing with him? It only made sense if you broke kayfabe and were saying/thinking "the bookers should be scripting Punk to win more often." Anytime they use instant replay to go back and change a match result due to interference. Okay, why don't you do that all the other times that happens? Whenever there's a heel who keeps using his buddies to cheat and help them win. Why don't the people in charge just say everyone is banned from ringside and if anyone gets involved in any way you're stripped of your title? Imagine the Roman/Omega heel reigns if the powers that be actually took initiative and stopped Heyman/Usos and Callis/Bucks ruining most of the big matches. Kevin Nash texting himself to beat up CM Punk That is easily explained in kayfabe. Laurinaitis is a weasel and got hold of HHH's phone and used it to text Nash and tell him to attack Punk. He hated HHH, Punk and Cena. By doing this he managed to screw all of them over at the same time. Del Rio is world champion and HHH gets removed as COO. In kayfabe Laurinatis basically outsmarted everyone.
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Sept 6, 2022 10:10:56 GMT -5
HHH being ousted because the entire roster was scared of....R-Truth and The Miz.
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cjh
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Post by cjh on Sept 6, 2022 10:48:28 GMT -5
I never understand the matches where a guy wrestles the whole match competitively and then turns on his partner(s) at the very end. Seems like a waste of energy. Austin turning on Team WWF is one that comes to mind. Unless you just wanted to ensure the loss, it seems to make more sense to do it earlier. There are some good examples such as Barry Windham turning on Lex Luger in 1988. The Horseman had been recruiting him to be a singles star and planting the seed that he couldn't count on Lex. Then during a grueling match where Barry and Lex are defending the tag titles against Arn and Tully, Barry needs a tag and Lex isn't there. JJ Dillon starts yelling from the outside "I told you he wouldn't be there for you". So Barry thinks it over and then turns on Lex and joins the Horseman. Same premise with run ins. Like why did Paul Wight let Vince McMahon get beaten half to death by Steve Austin before interfering. As soon as the cage door closes, get your ass in there! With Windham, a possible kayfabe explanation is that he didn't actually decide to join up with the Horsemen until that moment when Luger wasn't there. Maybe if he had been able to tag Luger, they would have ended up winning the match and retaining the titles. In a good example of this sort of thing being considered beforehand, there was a 2-3 handicap match in ECW in 1998 that ended with Bam Bam Bigelow turning against his partner Taz to re-join Shane Douglas and Chris Candido while Douglas and Candido turned against their partner Lance Storm. If you go back and watch it, Bigelow only fought Storm during the match and never touched Douglas or Candido.
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Post by sungod2020 on Sept 6, 2022 12:00:22 GMT -5
Vince McMahon being revealed as the "Higher Power". Despite all the plotholes involved, the kayfabe mark in me did appreciate the ridiculous lengths Vince would go to fool Austin.
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Post by James Fabiano on Sept 6, 2022 12:38:46 GMT -5
I think we had a thread like this before. As such, one example to start: Rick Martel's Arrogance just minorly inconveniences other wrestlers, but with Jake Roberts, he almost permanently loses his eyesight and has his vision impaired for months?
Similarly, I know there were wrestlers who took multiple Big Whoopsies from Earthquake and were back sooner than Hulk Hogan was, who had to recover and contemplate his future in the WWF?
On that topic, months after killing Damian, Jake welcomes Quake into his Survivor Series team?
About no Hogan/Warrior rematch...how about Jack Tunney in general? In kayfabe, we never see Rick Rude again until 1997 in the WWF because he made fun of someone's mother. Despite other heels doing MUCH MORE NEFARIOUS things to people. His timing is awful too...as he acted on multiple Doinks and three members of Demolition months after it was a serious problem....Doink had turned face, and...wait for it, RSPW alumni...Demolition Lost The Tag Team Titles (TM). So they couldn't abuse their three-man team to keep said belts.
Also it was a cool angle, and we all ate it up when we were young, but....if Tunney knew Ted DiBiase was going to get Andre to just give him the world title, why not act on it BEFORE The Main Event? Or was Heenan/Ventura/et al right and he WAS a closet Hulkamaniac who didn't expect Hogan to lose to anyone?
Mr. Fuji abandons Demolition and goes with the Powers of Pain. HE LEFT THE TAG TEAM CHAMPIONS. Now sure, the PoP COULD win the titles, but there was no guarantee, and indeed, they did not. Then, 2 years later, the Demos, despite being abandoned by Fuji, go back to him. Yeah Ax wasn't long for the WWF, but you'd think Smash remembered.
Vincent joins the nWo. You know, the same nWo funded by TED DIBIASE, the guy who demeaned him for 4 years and forced him to do all his dirty work?
Ed Leslie becomes The Disciple, despite Hogan rejecting him for the nWo after Hog Wild. And it's not like he was meant to be a new character.
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thecrusherwi
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Post by thecrusherwi on Sept 6, 2022 12:47:22 GMT -5
I never understand the matches where a guy wrestles the whole match competitively and then turns on his partner(s) at the very end. Seems like a waste of energy. Austin turning on Team WWF is one that comes to mind. Unless you just wanted to ensure the loss, it seems to make more sense to do it earlier. There are some good examples such as Barry Windham turning on Lex Luger in 1988. The Horseman had been recruiting him to be a singles star and planting the seed that he couldn't count on Lex. Then during a grueling match where Barry and Lex are defending the tag titles against Arn and Tully, Barry needs a tag and Lex isn't there. JJ Dillon starts yelling from the outside "I told you he wouldn't be there for you". So Barry thinks it over and then turns on Lex and joins the Horseman. Same premise with run ins. Like why did Paul Wight let Vince McMahon get beaten half to death by Steve Austin before interfering. As soon as the cage door closes, get your ass in there! With Windham, a possible kayfabe explanation is that he didn't actually decide to join up with the Horsemen until that moment when Luger wasn't there. Maybe if he had been able to tag Luger, they would have ended up winning the match and retaining the titles. In a good example of this sort of thing being considered beforehand, there was a 2-3 handicap match in ECW in 1998 that ended with Bam Bam Bigelow turning against his partner Taz to re-join Shane Douglas and Chris Candido while Douglas and Candido turned against their partner Lance Storm. If you go back and watch it, Bigelow only fought Storm during the match and never touched Douglas or Candido. Yeah I just phrased it poorly. I agree with you, the Windham turn is an example when turning on a partner mid match made sense. That ECW one is a good example as well. A less good example would be Kurt Angle at Survivor Series 2001. They tried to portray that he wanted the glory of saving the WWE, but by getting purposefully eliminated and then waiting so close to the end to betray Austin, he gave ample opportunity for the WWF to lose. And maybe he was trying to play both sides, but then wouldn't you try to stay in the match? He intervened when it looked like Austin was going to win. If he was trying to just save his job, he could've stayed in the back. What if the ref had gotten up and the WWF is disqualified by your interference. What a silly, dangerous plan - both by Vince and by Kurt.
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Post by chrom on Sept 6, 2022 13:01:57 GMT -5
HHH being ousted because the entire roster was scared of....R-Truth and The Miz. That's like being scared of Zubat and Tentacool
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Post by sungod2020 on Sept 6, 2022 13:07:56 GMT -5
I think we had a thread like this before. As such, one example to start: Rick Martel's Arrogance just minorly inconveniences other wrestlers, but with Jake Roberts, he almost permanently loses his eyesight and has his vision impaired for months? Similarly, I know there were wrestlers who took multiple Big Whoopsies from Earthquake and were back sooner than Hulk Hogan was, who had to recover and contemplate his future in the WWF? On that topic, months after killing Damian, Jake welcomes Quake into his Survivor Series team? About no Hogan/Warrior rematch...how about Jack Tunney in general? In kayfabe, we never see Rick Rude again until 1997 in the WWF because he made fun of someone's mother. Despite other heels doing MUCH MORE NEFARIOUS things to people. His timing is awful too...as he acted on multiple Doinks and three members of Demolition months after it was a serious problem....Doink had turned face, and...wait for it, RSPW alumni...Demolition Lost The Tag Team Titles (TM). So they couldn't abuse their three-man team to keep said belts. Also it was a cool angle, and we all ate it up when we were young, but....if Tunney knew Ted DiBiase was going to get Andre to just give him the world title, why not act on it BEFORE The Main Event? Or was Heenan/Ventura/et al right and he WAS a closet Hulkamaniac who didn't expect Hogan to lose to anyone? Mr. Fuji abandons Demolition and goes with the Powers of Pain. HE LEFT THE TAG TEAM CHAMPIONS. Now sure, the PoP COULD win the titles, but there was no guarantee, and indeed, they did not. Then, 2 years later, the Demos, despite being abandoned by Fuji, go back to him. Yeah Ax wasn't long for the WWF, but you'd think Smash remembered. Vincent joins the nWo. You know, the same nWo funded by TED DIBIASE, the guy who demeaned him for 4 years and forced him to do all his dirty work? Ed Leslie becomes The Disciple, despite Hogan rejecting him for the nWo after Hog Wild. And it's not like he was meant to be a new character. This one can easily be explained. Jake Roberts losing his pet snake brought him to the dark side.
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Bo Rida
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Post by Bo Rida on Sept 6, 2022 13:14:52 GMT -5
Why doesn't Chuck Taylor, the largest best friend, not simply eat Kenny Omega?"
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Post by James Fabiano on Sept 6, 2022 13:22:04 GMT -5
I think we had a thread like this before. As such, one example to start: Rick Martel's Arrogance just minorly inconveniences other wrestlers, but with Jake Roberts, he almost permanently loses his eyesight and has his vision impaired for months? Similarly, I know there were wrestlers who took multiple Big Whoopsies from Earthquake and were back sooner than Hulk Hogan was, who had to recover and contemplate his future in the WWF? On that topic, months after killing Damian, Jake welcomes Quake into his Survivor Series team? About no Hogan/Warrior rematch...how about Jack Tunney in general? In kayfabe, we never see Rick Rude again until 1997 in the WWF because he made fun of someone's mother. Despite other heels doing MUCH MORE NEFARIOUS things to people. His timing is awful too...as he acted on multiple Doinks and three members of Demolition months after it was a serious problem....Doink had turned face, and...wait for it, RSPW alumni...Demolition Lost The Tag Team Titles (TM). So they couldn't abuse their three-man team to keep said belts. Also it was a cool angle, and we all ate it up when we were young, but....if Tunney knew Ted DiBiase was going to get Andre to just give him the world title, why not act on it BEFORE The Main Event? Or was Heenan/Ventura/et al right and he WAS a closet Hulkamaniac who didn't expect Hogan to lose to anyone? Mr. Fuji abandons Demolition and goes with the Powers of Pain. HE LEFT THE TAG TEAM CHAMPIONS. Now sure, the PoP COULD win the titles, but there was no guarantee, and indeed, they did not. Then, 2 years later, the Demos, despite being abandoned by Fuji, go back to him. Yeah Ax wasn't long for the WWF, but you'd think Smash remembered. Vincent joins the nWo. You know, the same nWo funded by TED DIBIASE, the guy who demeaned him for 4 years and forced him to do all his dirty work? Ed Leslie becomes The Disciple, despite Hogan rejecting him for the nWo after Hog Wild. And it's not like he was meant to be a new character. This one can easily be explained. Jake Roberts losing his pet snake brought him to the dark side. ...and he thanked Quake for him seeing the light, er, darkness.
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Post by sungod2020 on Sept 6, 2022 14:04:26 GMT -5
Can somebody please explain why Luger was celebrating with all the babyfaces over a COUNTOUT victory? To make it even more absurd, he signed an agreement that it would be his ONLY shot at the championship too. Even as a 6 year old mark who always went along with the product, even I couldn't understand why they would have this massive Americana-style celebration....HE DIDN'T WIN THE TITLE!!! As crazy as this sounds, this wasn't the first time a babyface celebrated a countout victory when a championship was up for grabs. "Hacksaw" Jim Duggan did just when he defeated IC champ Rick Rude on Saturday Nights Main Event four years earlier. But his character gets something of a pass since his character wasn't suppose to be the brightest crayon in the box. Luger OTOH was suppose to be this Big American Hero who was set to bring the company's top prize back to U.S. soil and he FAILED at that, which makes him(and the rest of the other babyfaces by association) look like a big doofus for having this massive celebration.
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Post by Celexa Bliss 54 on Sept 6, 2022 14:24:48 GMT -5
Listen, Bro... While we're here I have ALWAYS hated the "title doesn't change hands on a DQ" because it makes no f***ing sense and any real sports body would immediately strip any champ who deliberately got themselves disqualified to avoid losing. Not only that, but even if you ignore the rule itself not making sense, why weren't heel Champions just kicking their opponents in the nuts as soon as the bell rang? If you're gonna include a rule to give them an easy out, why aren't they exploiting it?
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Post by Savage Gambino on Sept 13, 2022 0:04:44 GMT -5
Kevin Nash texting himself to beat up CM Punk That is easily explained in kayfabe. Laurinaitis is a weasel and got hold of HHH's phone and used it to text Nash and tell him to attack Punk. He hated HHH, Punk and Cena. By doing this he managed to screw all of them over at the same time. Del Rio is world champion and HHH gets removed as COO. In kayfabe Laurinatis basically outsmarted everyone. What's wild is, that seems to be where it was headed. They kept playing up Punk's disdain for Laurinaitis, and they kept starting AND ending segments with Johnny Ace on shots of him texting. It genuinely makes no sense that they didn't just go with that.
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Post by Mozenrath on Sept 13, 2022 15:51:57 GMT -5
I never understand the matches where a guy wrestles the whole match competitively and then turns on his partner(s) at the very end. Seems like a waste of energy. Austin turning on Team WWF is one that comes to mind. Unless you just wanted to ensure the loss, it seems to make more sense to do it earlier. There are some good examples such as Barry Windham turning on Lex Luger in 1988. The Horseman had been recruiting him to be a singles star and planting the seed that he couldn't count on Lex. Then during a grueling match where Barry and Lex are defending the tag titles against Arn and Tully, Barry needs a tag and Lex isn't there. JJ Dillon starts yelling from the outside "I told you he wouldn't be there for you". So Barry thinks it over and then turns on Lex and joins the Horseman. Same premise with run ins. Like why did Paul Wight let Vince McMahon get beaten half to death by Steve Austin before interfering. As soon as the cage door closes, get your ass in there! I do like that Buff Bagwell immediately turned on Rick Steiner in a match and bailed on him, leaving it as 2 on 1 until Buff came back to cheat for the opponents, for some reason dressed as Bill Clinton since '90s. Thing is, this STILL didn't work, and Rick won. I guess Buff Bagwell technically won, too, then. I guess that does show there is one reason to wait, if you're thinking it will help you make it count, but that still requires some generous benefit of the doubt from the audience on it making any sense.
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Post by Ronny Rayguns Is All Elite on Sept 13, 2022 15:59:26 GMT -5
I think we had a thread like this before. As such, one example to start: Rick Martel's Arrogance just minorly inconveniences other wrestlers, but with Jake Roberts, he almost permanently loses his eyesight and has his vision impaired for months? . I thought the idea was supposed to be that Martell loaded the atomizer with poison that night instead of his regular cologne at least that's how I understood it as a kid
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