What Caused Workrate to Become So Big?

[thegame415]

One of the things I enjoyed most about the Monday Night wars is that fans, and wrestlers to some extent, didn't care as much about workrate. This isn't to say that a stinker of a match couldn't hurt the crowd, or the wrestlers were just phoning it in. However, to me, it felt like fans just wanted to see the wrestlers they liked, and the wrestlers weren't so worried about their star ratings.

When do you think workrate became more of a concern for fans and wrestlers alike?

[Allie Kitsune]

Probably people wanting to elevate the cultural status of wrestling. Wanting to show that it's more than just whatever negative stereotypes non-fans wanted to apply to it. And as for the wrestlers, wanting to be recognized as having legitimate athletic prowess.

[Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby]

Because you can have characters people care about and workrate, and good wrestling is one of the things that separates wrestling from every other form of entertainment with distinctive characters and fight scenes.

[Oh Cry Me a Screwball]

"Workrate" was something that many fans felt was underserved by the major wrestling companies, especially once WCW and ECW were out of business and Vince was able to do as he pleased. The greater emphasis on in-ring product was a big reason why RoH and TNA ended up with significant cult followings pretty early in their lifepsan, and even can be credited with AEW's ability to break into the mainstream when combined with a billionaire's backing.

[Deleted]

Sept 26, 2022 19:26:36 GMT -5 Allie Kitsune said:

Probably people wanting to elevate the cultural status of wrestling. Wanting to show that it's more than just whatever negative stereotypes non-fans wanted to apply to it. And as for the wrestlers, wanting to be recognized as having legitimate athletic prowess.

This.

Pretending wrestling is more than just "that fake stuff" validates it in a way.

Don't get me wrong, I recognize it takes skill and talent to put on a good match.

But the reason "workrate" is so important to the smarks is because it provides them with proof that it does.

[Aceorton]

There are so many different ways to unpack this question, but I think one of the strongest explanations starts with the fact that wrestling fandom is very meta. You don't just watch the performances at face value with full suspension of disbelief -- you also are aware of the staged nature of the performances, the real-life people and politics behind those performances, and the general workings of the business itself. For years and years, it was no secret that size and look determined many of the biggest stars, especially in the WWF. You could be as coordinated as a garbage truck, but if you had a killer physique or you were 6'9" or 450 and looked like you could eat the champion and you had even a halfway-decent promo, you could get pushed as a superstar.

I think "workrate appreciation" originated in the '80s as a rejection of this idea that physically limited bodybuilders and monsters should be chosen for top spots. Fans who didn't find hoss wrestlers interesting gravitated to and embraced what they did find interesting: the move sequences, the counters, the near falls, the stamina, etc. That's where you get people worshipping Savage vs. Steamboat but thumbing their nose at Hogan vs. Andre. That's where you have people who swear by the NWA/WCW while hating Vince's circus. The move away from steroid freaks in the '90s created more openings for guys who specialized in the technical side of the craft, and since then, guys with workrate and charisma have usually done the best (Bret, Shawn, Eddie, Angle, Bryan, etc.). But there's also a deep appreciation for guys like Malenko, Lance Storm and a hundred indie darlings who didn't have a whole lot else going for them besides workrate. They do one piece of the puzzle extremely well, but it's the piece that those fans like most, so they forgive the shortcomings.

[This Player Hating Mothman]

I think the scope of your question is a bit too narrow here, referring almost entirely to trhe really mainstream view of American wrestliong. Bear in mind that Dave Meltzer gave Hogan vs. Andre -4 stars and called it "worst worked match of the year". That there was an active tape trading scene in the '90s to desperate lengths to get All Japan tapes to see the Four Pillars put on to-this-day contenders for some of the greatest matches of all time. Japan, Mexico, and Europe all put stronger emphasis onto match quality and a lot of the talents who came up in those environments brought those influences to American wrestling and mainstreamed it. WCW famously brought in the cruiserweights solely to put on big, exciting matches early in cards and they're one of the more fondly remembered parts of the whole promotion.

This wasn't some magical change or anything. Fans and wrestlers always had that care. The Attitude Era was just a specific period in time with a lot of fans who came on for a couple years and then left. The people who stayed stayed for a variety of reasons, but interest in seeing good matches ended up being a big piece. The kind of fan who really wanted to see good matches became more prevalent because wrestling became a more niche interest, but to say it wasn't there previously doesn't track. The culture was always there. It's like asking why metal fans got snobby when Slipknot hit the scene.

Sept 26, 2022 19:57:01 GMT -5 @negan said:

But the reason "workrate" is so important to the smarks is because it provides them with proof that it does.

Nah man it's just what makes wrestling entertaining to those fans. A complex match is fun to watch and if matches were all stripped down and ddid less it wouldn't be as interesting to watch.

[GodzillaIsMyMonster]

Because people wanted to pretend it matters.

Workrate doesn't sell tickets. Never has never will.

[fw91]

When WWE became the only game in town and lost it's cool factor. Non WWE fans wanted an alternative. Workrate is/was a key component of alternate wwe in the post war era.

[fw91]

Sept 26, 2022 22:15:04 GMT -5 GodzillaIsMyMonster said:

Because people wanted to pretend it matters.

Workrate doesn't sell tickets. Never has never will.

agreed. That's not to say I won't appreciate a good match with stakes on PPV, but I just don't care to watch a long match on tv over character and story development.

[Cranjis McBasketball]

You can all pretend this all you like, but go read, I think his name was Herb, who reviewed WWF and other wrestling shows on the f***ing ARPANET. Fans cared about "work rate" always.

[GodzillaIsMyMonster]

Sept 27, 2022 0:13:12 GMT -5 fw91 said:

Sept 26, 2022 22:15:04 GMT -5 GodzillaIsMyMonster said:

Because people wanted to pretend it matters.

Workrate doesn't sell tickets. Never has never will.

agreed. That's not to say I won't appreciate a good match with stakes on PPV, but I just don't care to watch a long match on tv over character and story development.

Good matches are a bonus really. But honestly "good" can mean different things to different people.

For example, Savage VS Steamboat...I don't like it. Both men have had WAYYYYY BETTER matches.

I much prefer Hogan VS Andre. Better story.

My all time favorite match of all time, what I personally consider the greatest match ever, is Hogan VS Savage at WM5.

My point being... what makes a good match is different depending on who you ask.

Some people love high spots and big move fests.

Others like a mat based grapple contest.

Some like big brawls and others like bloody death matches.


I personally prefer good stories.

[Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby]

Ok - long, well explained answer:

DVDs happened.

There are a lot of facets to this answer, and I think all of them are worth getting into, so here goes.

First, what is "workrate" in this context? Is it flippy moves? Is it psychology? Is it technical wrestling? Is it an overall summation of all of these things? Is it somehow the exact opposite of some other type of wrestling that the Rock and Hulk Hogan did that is mysteriously its own category that has nothing to do with what Bret Hart and Kenny Omega do?

So I will boil it down to "complex wrestling." I don't see a better way to define it, and it's the only way I can make sense out of the proposed dichotomy here where Rock 'n' Wrestling and the Attitude Era are one thing, and the last twenty-one years of changes in mainstream wrestling are another thing.

(I stopped myself from a lot of very mean-spirited and sarcastic replies. If there is anything dismissive about the above, well, that's why.)

Anyway. DVDs.

There are a lot of effects that DVDs had. For one, mass market DVDs had enough storage space in contrast to VHS that WWE could release, say, a compilation of every match that Mick Foley reminisced about in his memoirs that WWE owned the footage of. It was suddenly economical for WWE to make a big compilation of every great Ric Flair match, or every Shawn Michaels WWF title defense, or the most spectacular Rob Van Dam matches. WWE had this new incentive to sell products based on the quality of past matches, not the future clash of two personalities. The "good match" became a product that could be sold over and over, and selling that product built a taste for it in their audience.

Oh, and the track change feature of a DVD makes the single match a more viable selling point, as opposed to the entire show watched straight through on VHS or fiddling with fast forward to get to the one you care about.

Workrate, or as I have defined it, complex wrestling, is much easier to sell more than once than simple wrestling. Ultimate Warrior had a personality compelling enough to get people to see his next match, but he rarely wrestled a match that anyone particularly wanted to watch twice or seek out fifteen years later. (Yes, he had some, and every single one is notable as an exception to the rule for him.) Contrast that to a Rey Mysterio or a Kurt Angle or a Ricky Steamboat, who had many longer and more unique matches with different opponents because they had more dimension and complexity to their wrestling. This is why WWE will actively market Undertaker/Shawn Michaels matches, because there is money in selling that Mania 25 match over and over.

Then there's the world beyond WWE. Complex wrestling matches sold DVDs for ROH and PWG and Shimmer - the shows had already happened, so the DVD was not sold on the buildup like a pre-00s PPV or house show, but on the buzz of the match quality. An ROH consumer in 2005 expected the match featuring their fave to go at least ten minutes and to be exciting enough to justify the $20 spent when sold alongside multiple other matches of equal or greater quality.

(There is also the wrinkle of AJPW selling their main events on VHS in the 90s, and the knock on effect this had as ROH copied their stylings because they worked for continuous home video release and Johnny Ace brought the bombastic spectacle of those matches to Wrestlemania main events.)

Those ROH and PWG wrestlers then went on to dominate WWE in the 10s because whoops, trying to train a generation of body guys with basic movesets and no experience selling themselves in different circumstances and environments left WWE with too few wrestlers who had the depth of skill to replace the likes of Edge, Booker T, Rey Mysterio, Eddie Guerrero, and especially Shawn Michaels. (See above for how the talents of "Mr. Wrestlemania" Shawn Michaels especially found a whole new use in the DVD era as WWE sold multiple compilations of Michaels matches and then marketed Mania 26 on the quality of the previous year's Michaels match.) It turned out that even roles like the cowardly Memphis heel got more over when executed by the likes of Daniel Bryan than by an FCW graduate who could do a body slam, a neck breaker, and a superplex before hitting his finisher.

There are a lot of other factors, like the evolution of sports medicine, the state of Hulk Hogan (and others) in the 00s attesting to the toll of repetitive spots being its own hell in comparison to the dangers of more complex and varied wrestling, the simple fact that once someone figures out a thing that works it will spread and spread until it's practically a required baseline skill (a phenomenon that exists in everything from sports to acting to video game speedruns), the simple fact that wrestlers with deeper skillsets just plain got over everywhere while so many OVW body guys flamed out even in the one system they were built for, and the need for wrestling to bring something to the table that MMA couldn't by emphasizing athletic spectacle in matches guaranteed to last long enough to be worth the money.

But I think a whole lot of it comes down to DVDs.

[This Player Hating Mothman]

Sept 26, 2022 22:15:04 GMT -5 GodzillaIsMyMonster said:

Because people wanted to pretend it matters.

Workrate doesn't sell tickets. Never has never will.

The confidence in being this wrong and this sweepingly certain of what sells tickets across like, the whole of wrestling, is really impressive. Like there aren't entire promotions built on high workrate stuff. Like New Japan's heavy emphasis on in-ring storytelling and match quality isn't a massive component of what sells out the Tokyo Dome. Come on.

[David-Arquette was in WCW 2000]

Workrate has naturally developed and increased over the last 30 years. Once WWE became the only mainstream promotion, whose focus was largely on angles and storylines, alternatives such as ROH and TNA relied on the other end of the spectrum, pushing the athletic side.

Over the last 10 years in particular the focus for the majority of indies, well any company that isn't WWE is workrate. This has come at the detriment of character work and further development in that area.

[GodzillaIsMyMonster]

Sept 27, 2022 1:21:08 GMT -5 This Player Hating Mothman said:

Sept 26, 2022 22:15:04 GMT -5 GodzillaIsMyMonster said:

Because people wanted to pretend it matters.

Workrate doesn't sell tickets. Never has never will.

The confidence in being this wrong and this sweepingly certain of what sells tickets across like, the whole of wrestling, is really impressive. Like there aren't entire promotions built on high workrate stuff. Like New Japan's heavy emphasis on in-ring storytelling and match quality isn't a massive component of what sells out the Tokyo Dome. Come on.

Japan doesn't count.

I was talking strictly American promotions.

[Bo Rida]

There was a time a wrestler could coast on a signature spot. The crowd would go nuts for say the worm or ho train and if people wanted more they had to watch the show to see it again.

These days you could pull up loads of matches and GIFs online and be sick of it within a week.

The novelty acts are the easiest illustration of that but really it's everything, that accessibility means people are always chasing the new and tire of anything that doesn't change. The multi-year long unchanged face/heel runs are much harder to sustain these days. Especially as it coincides with people not really buying the heel face dynamic (or lazy patriotism) in the same way they once did.

So workrate is the main thing that's left because that's the part that can be different everytime.

It's also easier for the wrestlers to tell a story in the ring than the bookers/writers creating long-term stories that reward watching every week, every company has struggled to maintain that for any length of time. In an ideal world you get both at the same time and that's when wrestling is at its best.

[This Player Hating Mothman]

Sept 27, 2022 1:32:34 GMT -5 GodzillaIsMyMonster said:

Sept 27, 2022 1:21:08 GMT -5 This Player Hating Mothman said:

The confidence in being this wrong and this sweepingly certain of what sells tickets across like, the whole of wrestling, is really impressive. Like there aren't entire promotions built on high workrate stuff. Like New Japan's heavy emphasis on in-ring storytelling and match quality isn't a massive component of what sells out the Tokyo Dome. Come on.

Japan doesn't count.

I was talking strictly American promotions.

You didn't say that, nothing about this thread indicates that, but honestly "Japan doesn't count" says it all. Still inaccurate, but not even worth arguing once you drop that nugget in the pool; best to just drain it after that.

[Jacy Derangement Syndrome]

Synthetic marijuana

[GodzillaIsMyMonster]

Sept 27, 2022 1:36:40 GMT -5 This Player Hating Mothman said:

Sept 27, 2022 1:32:34 GMT -5 GodzillaIsMyMonster said:

Japan doesn't count.

I was talking strictly American promotions.

You didn't say that, nothing about this thread indicates that, but honestly "Japan doesn't count" says it all. Still inaccurate, but not even worth arguing once you drop that nugget in the pool; best to just drain it after that.

Japanese culture is wildly different.

I don't mean it as a racist comment.

Even with the culture differences, id argue that it's the personality that draws in fans.

But you don't like me... so..