Bo Rida
Fry's dog Seymour
Pulled one over on everyone. Got away with it, this time.
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Post by Bo Rida on Sept 27, 2022 3:58:42 GMT -5
Another factor is global audiences becoming more important. They're not just booking for one area/country but theoretically the whole world.
Having more of a focus on workrate reduces the language barrier.
Although really it shows it's not an either/or question. Someone like Minoru Suzuki has the workrate but at the same time he's a larger than life personality. You don't have to understand a word he and countless other wrestlers say to understand their characters.
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Post by Feyrhausen on Sept 27, 2022 5:09:18 GMT -5
I think that it was as simple as people were tired of big guys doing the same tired routine over and over again every night. Then combine that with exposure to Japanese wrestling via WCW and smaller guys started doing more and more of the international style and people just found it more exciting—both the fans and wrestlers. I don’t think it’s much more than that really. See what you said here is really important. Same stuff every night. When Hogan was on top he was not wrestling every week on free tv. He was only coming to your town every few months. His limited act never had time to get old. Workrate was always around. People stereotype it as "flippy shit" or holds and moves but workrate is the ability to work a match with skill. The old guys didnt do a lot of moves but they were masters of workrate. They had to be to keep the crowds coming back. Bruno told this story on why Vince kept trying to bring him back in the 80s. Vince was using Hogan to expand nationally and it was working well. But he was spending so much money that the old Northeast tour was often the most reliable source of income. And Hogan was no draw for those shows. His act was too limited for the same audience on a regular basis. They got bored with his act. So Vince would bring back Bruno. Because he knew how to work and mix up his act and matches. All without flips and fancy moves.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Sept 27, 2022 5:19:11 GMT -5
It always *was* big. The styles just evolved.
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Post by Feyrhausen on Sept 27, 2022 5:21:06 GMT -5
You didn't say that, nothing about this thread indicates that, but honestly "Japan doesn't count" says it all. Still inaccurate, but not even worth arguing once you drop that nugget in the pool; best to just drain it after that. Japanese culture is wildly different. I don't mean it as a racist comment. Even with the culture differences, id argue that it's the personality that draws in fans. But you don't like me... so.. Its not racist its nationalist. Because you are leaving out Europe as well. And Mexico. Really the entire world except the US. The US has really only been character focused since Vince went national. As I explained in another post workrate has always been around, just not the cruiserweight or technical style people stereotype it as now. The old guys had to draw crowds on regular basis so they could work their asses off. Bill Watts hated flippy shit. But he made rookies like Arn go out and work 20 minutes without throwing a single punch. Thats workrate. Hulk Hogan had crazy charisma and could cut crazy good promos. So he could coast in ring because you would only see him a few times a year counting tv and live shows. If he was around in the old days of weekly shows or the modern day of weekly tv his act would have gotten old far faster. Now he could adapt because he had more ability than he usually showed us. But his time on top would still.have been far less.
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celtics543
Don Corleone
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Post by celtics543 on Sept 27, 2022 6:05:09 GMT -5
Workrate doesn't matter unless you have a personality and a character. No one wants to watch two guys work a 5 star match if they don't care about the story or the people doing it.
It's like the difference between an independent movie at the Sundance Film Festival and a superhero blockbuster. The indie film might be better acted but Iron Man is bringing in way more money. It draws better.
Now if you have a movie that's wonderfully acted and has big stars, then it's one of the top movies of all time. Wrestling is the same, ROH might put on a technical masterpiece between two guys you've never heard of but Hogan vs Andre is the blockbuster. If you can mix a high workrate match with huge stars then you have some of the best matches of all time.
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Post by Feyrhausen on Sept 27, 2022 6:28:00 GMT -5
Workrate doesn't matter unless you have a personality and a character. No one wants to watch two guys work a 5 star match if they don't care about the story or the people doing it. It's like the difference between an independent movie at the Sundance Film Festival and a superhero blockbuster. The indie film might be better acted but Iron Man is bringing in way more money. It draws better. Now if you have a movie that's wonderfully acted and has big stars, then it's one of the top movies of all time. Wrestling is the same, ROH might put on a technical masterpiece between two guys you've never heard of but Hogan vs Andre is the blockbuster. If you can mix a high workrate match with huge stars then you have some of the best matches of all time. And by the same token no one wants to see the same tired match and spots over and over week to week. Hogan and post injury Austin would never last in todays WWE where the big stars are always there and always having matches. WWF had a strong mid and undercard so their biggest stars could just come on to cut a promo week to week. With a squash match here and there. And you had to wait for a SNME, PPV, or house show to see Hogan hulk up or Austin to stomp a mudhole. And you were happy with the same old thing because it was rare. Look at the biggest stars over the last decade. Cena, Styles, Moxley, Rollins, Reigns, Bryan, Lashley, Drew. All big personalities who can work.
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Post by HMARK Center on Sept 27, 2022 6:35:10 GMT -5
Workrate doesn't matter unless you have a personality and a character. No one wants to watch two guys work a 5 star match if they don't care about the story or the people doing it. This is the characterization of "workrate" I take issue with: given that wrestling is, y'know, fake fighting, a massive part of workrate is the ability to communicate your character and tell a story in the ring during your match, while also working it in a technically sound, fluid manner. If you're not communicating your character/the story involved, then it isn't a five star match. This conflation of "workrate" with "people able to do a lot of varied, dynamic moves" is a weird invention I don't really comprehend. Kazuchika Okada doesn't have tons of five star matches because he's able to do a million different moves (a common critique from those that aren't into his matches is that his offense isn't varied enough!), it's that the guy communicates a damned effective story while executing his moves and pacing his psychology in a really, really effective way. Not saying you're specifically doing this, but it's a super WWE-centric way to look at wrestling to say that you don't have "characters" or "story" unless you've got a bunch of long promos and angles leading into a match, or over the top gimmicks involved, or anything like that. Those things aren't bad, they can be really, really good in selling a match or character, but that is not how pro wrestling has been presented for the vast majority of its history in the vast majority of the world. The time it really was and the time it really did sell to the public, the late 90s? That didn't last very long; people swooped in on the craze in '98, and were done by '01. That goes back to the point a lot of people are making regarding how things changed as mainstream wrestling moved to a weekly prime time supercard format as opposed to weekly un-televised houseshows and infrequent PPVs surrounded by little more than jobber squashes and shorter matches with midcarders on free TV.
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Post by Feyrhausen on Sept 27, 2022 6:40:52 GMT -5
Workrate doesn't matter unless you have a personality and a character. No one wants to watch two guys work a 5 star match if they don't care about the story or the people doing it. This is the characterization of "workrate" I take issue with: given that wrestling is, y'know, fake fighting, a massive part of workrate is the ability to communicate your character and tell a story in the ring during your match, while also working it in a technically sound, fluid manner. If you're not communicating your character/the story involved, then it isn't a five star match. This conflation of "workrate" with "people able to do a lot of varied, dynamic moves" is a weird invention I don't really comprehend. Kazuchika Okada doesn't have tons of five star matches because he's able to do a million different moves (a common critique from those that aren't into his match is that his offense isn't varied enough!), it's that the guy communicates a damned effective story while executing his moves and pacing his psychology in a really, really effective way. Not saying you're specifically doing this, but it's a super WWE-centric way to look at wrestling to say that you don't have "characters" or "story" unless you've got a bunch of long promos and angles leading into a match, or over the top gimmicks involved, or anything like that. Those things aren't bad, they can be really, really good in selling a match or character, but that is not how pro wrestling has been presented for the vast majority of its history in the vast majority of the world. The time it really was and the time it really did sell to the public, the late 90s? That didn't last very long; people swooped in on the craze in '98, and were done by '01. That goes back to the point a lot of people are making regarding how things changed as mainstream wrestling moved to a weekly prime time supercard format as opposed to weekly un-televised houseshows and infrequent PPVs surrounded by little more than jobber squashes and shorter matches with midcarders on free TV. Exactly. Example, Bruno was one of the best workers ever. Edit. And back to what he said about having a 5 star match? By whose judgement? Meltzer? Thats his opinion based on what he likes. Someone else may call Hogan Warrior a 5 star match.
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Post by The Barber on Sept 27, 2022 6:51:52 GMT -5
Workrate draws it just draws lessThat is the point you are missing. Your argument is based on the false premise that the only thing that is successful is the thing that is most successful. But good matches sell tickets, too. But noone would care about the matches, if not for the personality. Or amateur wrestling would draw huge. Or ROH or 'insert local promotion' would be a huge draw, too. Everyone seems to be attacking you, but I'm gonna be the one that sticks up for you. Every promotion that tried to emphasize 'work rate' over 'character' flopped. No one (besides most of the IWC) wants to see one or two hours of just straight matches and no storyline reason why they are fighting. It's hard to get emotionally into matches that have no rhyme or reason to watch them.
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
Celestial Princess in Exile.
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Sept 27, 2022 7:23:54 GMT -5
Japanese culture is wildly different. I don't mean it as a racist comment. Even with the culture differences, id argue that it's the personality that draws in fans. But you don't like me... so.. Its not racist its nationalist. Because you are leaving out Europe as well. And Mexico. Really the entire world except the US. The US has really only been character focused since Vince went national. As I explained in another post workrate has always been around, just not the cruiserweight or technical style people stereotype it as now. The old guys had to draw crowds on regular basis so they could work their asses off. Bill Watts hated flippy shit. But he made rookies like Arn go out and work 20 minutes without throwing a single punch. Thats workrate. Hulk Hogan had crazy charisma and could cut crazy good promos. So he could coast in ring because you would only see him a few times a year counting tv and live shows. If he was around in the old days of weekly shows or the modern day of weekly tv his act would have gotten old far faster. Now he could adapt because he had more ability than he usually showed us. But his time on top would still.have been far less. I think if a guy like Hogan would have had to work the style you'd see him work sometimes on his Japanese tours, he likely would have tried to slim down a bit too, because at his size he wouldn't have held up very long working it. Or maybe if he did work that style more often, he wouldn't have been doing the legdrop every damned night and destroying his tailbone and back. (Then again, nowadays we've got Matt Hardy limping around barely able to walk because of years upon years of doing a SECOND ROPE legdrop, and it wasn't even his finish...)
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Post by HMARK Center on Sept 27, 2022 7:33:33 GMT -5
But noone would care about the matches, if not for the personality. Or amateur wrestling would draw huge. Or ROH or 'insert local promotion' would be a huge draw, too. Everyone seems to be attacking you, but I'm gonna be the one that sticks up for you. Every promotion that tried to emphasize 'work rate' over 'character' flopped. No one (besides most of the IWC) wants to see one or two hours of just straight matches and no storyline reason why they are fighting. It's hard to get emotionally into matches that have no rhyme or reason to watch them. Ok, since I just got done saying I think people don't really know what they're saying when they use the word "workrate"...I have to ask what you think "character" means. Does it mean gimmick? Does it mean something that can only be expressed in 10-20 minute promos/segments/angles? Is it something that's communicated in the ring? Because if you think ROH didn't involve a lot of character work, then you didn't watch ROH. Also really weird to compare the drawing power of promotions that had literally millions of dollars pumped into them for decades now versus ones that had to get off the ground as startup companies 20 years ago.
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Zone Was Wrong
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Currently living off the high that AEW brings every Wednesday and Friday
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Post by Zone Was Wrong on Sept 27, 2022 7:41:35 GMT -5
No clue about other people but for me it's always been about workrate I guess. Guys like Eddie, Jericho, Malenko, Hart, Henning, etc were who got me into wrestling in the first place. It's why my least favorite eras of wwe have been when they've emphasized green dudes brought up from fcw and ovw. It's why I saught out tna and roh in the first place. Really just comes down to preference I guess.
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Sephiroth
Wade Wilson
Surviving
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Post by Sephiroth on Sept 27, 2022 7:42:01 GMT -5
The Rithless Agression era. A time when WWE was effectively the only game in town and became mired down in Superman Cena taking on the same opponents for months on end in rematch after rematch, leaving fans starved fir diversity in ring performance. Also no small influence by UFC and other mma promotions, the closest thing there was to competition at the time.
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Post by Feyrhausen on Sept 27, 2022 7:44:02 GMT -5
Its not racist its nationalist. Because you are leaving out Europe as well. And Mexico. Really the entire world except the US. The US has really only been character focused since Vince went national. As I explained in another post workrate has always been around, just not the cruiserweight or technical style people stereotype it as now. The old guys had to draw crowds on regular basis so they could work their asses off. Bill Watts hated flippy shit. But he made rookies like Arn go out and work 20 minutes without throwing a single punch. Thats workrate. Hulk Hogan had crazy charisma and could cut crazy good promos. So he could coast in ring because you would only see him a few times a year counting tv and live shows. If he was around in the old days of weekly shows or the modern day of weekly tv his act would have gotten old far faster. Now he could adapt because he had more ability than he usually showed us. But his time on top would still.have been far less. I think if a guy like Hogan would have had to work the style you'd see him work sometimes on his Japanese tours, he likely would have tried to slim down a bit too, because at his size he wouldn't have held up very long working it. Or maybe if he did work that style more often, he wouldn't have been doing the legdrop every damned night and destroying his tailbone and back. (Then again, nowadays we've got Matt Hardy limping around barely able to walk because of years upon years of doing a SECOND ROPE legdrop, and it wasn't even his finish...) Hogan could work. He did so in Japan because they expected it. And in his heel run of WWWF, and his face run in AWA, because he had to. It was only when WWF went national that he could get away with his limited standard match. Because you rarely saw it. A few times year when he came to your town for a house show or the big tv events. When they tried to tour him in the old clubs as Bruno called them he killed the houses with the repetition. And I dont blame Hogan for working limited. He was busting his ass with travel and shows. With what was expected of him it was the best way to work. It worked for everyone. But it would not have worked in the territory days and it would not work in todays fast paced constant exposure days.
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
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Celestial Princess in Exile.
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Sept 27, 2022 8:26:44 GMT -5
I think if a guy like Hogan would have had to work the style you'd see him work sometimes on his Japanese tours, he likely would have tried to slim down a bit too, because at his size he wouldn't have held up very long working it. Or maybe if he did work that style more often, he wouldn't have been doing the legdrop every damned night and destroying his tailbone and back. (Then again, nowadays we've got Matt Hardy limping around barely able to walk because of years upon years of doing a SECOND ROPE legdrop, and it wasn't even his finish...) Hogan could work. He did so in Japan because they expected it. And in his heel run of WWWF, and his face run in AWA, because he had to. It was only when WWF went national that he could get away with his limited standard match. Because you rarely saw it. A few times year when he came to your town for a house show or the big tv events. When they tried to tour him in the old clubs as Bruno called them he killed the houses with the repetition. And I dont blame Hogan for working limited. He was busting his ass with travel and shows. With what was expected of him it was the best way to work. It worked for everyone. But it would not have worked in the territory days and it would not work in todays fast paced constant exposure days. I don't disagree. Just wondering that if he would have had to work the way people work now all the time, if maybe he would have made the decision to not have carried as much roid muscle on his frame as he did.
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Post by Feyrhausen on Sept 27, 2022 8:46:33 GMT -5
Hogan could work. He did so in Japan because they expected it. And in his heel run of WWWF, and his face run in AWA, because he had to. It was only when WWF went national that he could get away with his limited standard match. Because you rarely saw it. A few times year when he came to your town for a house show or the big tv events. When they tried to tour him in the old clubs as Bruno called them he killed the houses with the repetition. And I dont blame Hogan for working limited. He was busting his ass with travel and shows. With what was expected of him it was the best way to work. It worked for everyone. But it would not have worked in the territory days and it would not work in todays fast paced constant exposure days. I don't disagree. Just wondering that if he would have had to work the way people work now all the time, if maybe he would have made the decision to not have carried as much roid muscle on his frame as he did. Most likely. He slimmed down roughly the same time WWF and WCW were changing how weekly tv worked. That was because of the roid scandal though. He still avoided doing free stuff on a regular basis.
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Post by Jaws the Shark on Sept 27, 2022 9:24:13 GMT -5
But noone would care about the matches, if not for the personality. Or amateur wrestling would draw huge. Or ROH or 'insert local promotion' would be a huge draw, too. Everyone seems to be attacking you, but I'm gonna be the one that sticks up for you. Every promotion that tried to emphasize 'work rate' over 'character' flopped. No one (besides most of the IWC) wants to see one or two hours of just straight matches and no storyline reason why they are fighting. It's hard to get emotionally into matches that have no rhyme or reason to watch them. To be fair, ROH ended up going on a downturn after WWE (and to a lesser extent TNA) signed away all their best talent very quickly. ECW was placed in a similar position, and more recently PWG and the British indys; whatever the style or quality of your booking, that's a difficult thing to rebuild from.
And it's a total misconception that ROH lacked storylines because at its peak it was heavily storyline and character driven, even stuff like the Code of Honor was more than just something to emphasise "workrate", it was a device for stories and characters to use.
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tafkaga
Samurai Cop
the Dogfather
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Post by tafkaga on Sept 27, 2022 9:37:59 GMT -5
Workrate was a thing during the MNW.
I ran an email newsletter that recapped Nitro every week, and got so many emails about "workrate" and why Benoit should be the World champion, cuz he has the best "workrate".
I guess it's fair to say that people enjoy different things about rasslin, and to some people good rasslin = workrate. That's not me, but whatever.
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Post by hentery on Sept 27, 2022 9:52:43 GMT -5
One of the things I enjoyed most about the Monday Night wars is that fans, and wrestlers to some extent, didn't care as much about workrate. This isn't to say that a stinker of a match couldn't hurt the crowd, or the wrestlers were just phoning it in. However, to me, it felt like fans just wanted to see the wrestlers they liked, and the wrestlers weren't so worried about their star ratings. When do you think workrate became more of a concern for fans and wrestlers alike? When wrestling become niche again.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Sept 27, 2022 9:56:02 GMT -5
Work Rate always mattered to an extent, but even in the indies, when a promotion gets hot it is usually because of angles that relied on emotional investment. Doesn't matter the promotion at the big shows, the biggest matches were built around emotional investment because of angles. That being said, a match just being a disaster despite emotional investment can turn a crowd against the match.
There's no place that is really 100 percent workrate anymore, nor can you just get over based on that because there are just too many good workers out there and it's all readily available. But to say workrate doesn't matter or never did? It's more than just flashy moves
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