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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Sept 27, 2022 1:44:30 GMT -5
People saw Evan Bourne get wellnessed over spice two times, then get banned from Japan a few years later for taking spice into the country, and they knew they could be the good wrestles man instead of him and dedicated themselves to the craft. "Workrate" as we know it was only invented in 2011 as a psyop by people politicking backstage to take the titles off of Air Boom.
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Mozenrath
FANatic
Foppery and Whim
Speedy Speed Boy
Posts: 121,081
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Post by Mozenrath on Sept 27, 2022 1:45:21 GMT -5
Youtube and other ways of sharing wrestling videos even before that probably made a big difference. Standards got higher, and with social media's rise, guys like Will Ospreay, Ricochet, and others saw their profiles rise rapidly when a gif picking up enough attention could land you bookings.
All that being said, I think workrate is one of those things where people often think it means the same thing as having a bunch of moves. Kanyon and Nova both were doing this kind of thing in the mid to late 90s, and developed a following, but neither guy is someone I'd peg as being the best worker. They were good and all, but someone like an Arn Anderson, a Lance Storm, or a Jerry Lynn fit the bill way more.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Sept 27, 2022 2:16:42 GMT -5
You didn't say that, nothing about this thread indicates that, but honestly "Japan doesn't count" says it all. Still inaccurate, but not even worth arguing once you drop that nugget in the pool; best to just drain it after that. Japanese culture is wildly different. I don't mean it as a racist comment. Even with the culture differences, id argue that it's the personality that draws in fans. But you don't like me... so.. Nah man, I'm not someone who holds on to weird arbitrary grudges toward strangers, but you can be ignorant without being racist and that was an ignorant statement. You wanna talk America only, sure, let's talk about how Japan "counts" for American wrestling. It could be the number of people who grew up watching Japanese wrestling and take guys like the Four Pillars as their guiding stylistic inspirations. The sheer number of wrestlers going today who spent time in Japan and brought those influences and experiences back with them. Maybe the number of Japanese stars brought in by even WWE, which will probably soon resume now that Triple H is booking the whole company. Or people who were inspired by the likes of journeymen who worked Japan like Chris Jericho and Bret Hart whose early careers have time in Japan logged that helped them be the all-timers they came to be. The entire foundation right now of the modern women's wrestling scene in America is built on trying to log time with either Japanese women, or with women who spent time in Japan, long a bigger market for women's wrestling during its darkest days and which led to lots of women going on excursion there. Or we can talk about the fan side of things; the ways that many American viewers do watch Japanese promotions and do have tastes that other promotions can cater toward. The fans who as mentioned earlier in the thread bought AJPW tapes to see Misawa matches and had their fandom influenced by that. The way Bullet Club got really big and ROH was even desperately clinging to New Japan's breast for a couple years to maintain interest in their own product. In a truly global entertainment market, very few things are strictly isolated affairs anymore. Wrestling is international and the influences of that internationality show up in plenty of complicated ways. To say that workrate never sells tickets is to just pretend that whole heaps of wrestling fans don't exist, and to say Japan 'doesn't count' ignores them twice as hard. Japan counts in major ways even if you don't want to talk about Japanese promotions and the entire foundation of internet wrestling discussion in America hinges itself on importing Japanese wrestling and dorking out about it.
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Post by GodzillaIsMyMonster on Sept 27, 2022 2:21:40 GMT -5
Japanese culture is wildly different. I don't mean it as a racist comment. Even with the culture differences, id argue that it's the personality that draws in fans. But you don't like me... so.. Nah man, I'm not someone who holds on to weird arbitrary grudges toward strangers, but you can be ignorant without being racist and that was an ignorant statement. You wanna talk America only, sure, let's talk about how Japan "counts" for American wrestling. It could be the number of people who grew up watching Japanese wrestling and take guys like the Four Pillars as their guiding stylistic inspirations. The sheer number of wrestlers going today who spent time in Japan and brought those influences and experiences back with them. Maybe the number of Japanese stars brought in by even WWE, which will probably soon resume now that Triple H is booking the whole company. Or people who were inspired by the likes of journeymen who worked Japan like Chris Jericho and Bret Hart whose early careers have time in Japan logged that helped them be the all-timers they came to be. The entire foundation right now of the modern women's wrestling scene in America is built on trying to log time with either Japanese women, or with women who spent time in Japan, long a bigger market for women's wrestling during its darkest days and which led to lots of women going on excursion there. Or we can talk about the fan side of things; the ways that many American viewers do watch Japanese promotions and do have tastes that other promotions can cater toward. The fans who as mentioned earlier in the thread bought AJPW tapes to see Misawa matches and had their fandom influenced by that. The way Bullet Club got really big and ROH was even desperately clinging to New Japan's breast for a couple years to maintain interest in their own product. In a truly global entertainment market, very few things are strictly isolated affairs anymore. Wrestling is international and the influences of that internationality show up in plenty of complicated ways. To say that workrate never sells tickets is to just pretend that whole heaps of wrestling fans don't exist, and to say Japan 'doesn't count' ignores them twice as hard. Japan counts in major ways even if you don't want to talk about Japanese promotions and the entire foundation of internet wrestling discussion in America hinges itself on importing Japanese wrestling and dorking out about it. First off sorry for calling you out. I apologize. Second, the guys you mentioned, Misawa, Jericho, Bret, they all had personalities to. Dean Malenko didn't become a huge draw. Bret and Jericho did. My argument is, that the "Workrate" is still like the the icing on the cake.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Sept 27, 2022 2:28:12 GMT -5
Nah man, I'm not someone who holds on to weird arbitrary grudges toward strangers, but you can be ignorant without being racist and that was an ignorant statement. You wanna talk America only, sure, let's talk about how Japan "counts" for American wrestling. It could be the number of people who grew up watching Japanese wrestling and take guys like the Four Pillars as their guiding stylistic inspirations. The sheer number of wrestlers going today who spent time in Japan and brought those influences and experiences back with them. Maybe the number of Japanese stars brought in by even WWE, which will probably soon resume now that Triple H is booking the whole company. Or people who were inspired by the likes of journeymen who worked Japan like Chris Jericho and Bret Hart whose early careers have time in Japan logged that helped them be the all-timers they came to be. The entire foundation right now of the modern women's wrestling scene in America is built on trying to log time with either Japanese women, or with women who spent time in Japan, long a bigger market for women's wrestling during its darkest days and which led to lots of women going on excursion there. Or we can talk about the fan side of things; the ways that many American viewers do watch Japanese promotions and do have tastes that other promotions can cater toward. The fans who as mentioned earlier in the thread bought AJPW tapes to see Misawa matches and had their fandom influenced by that. The way Bullet Club got really big and ROH was even desperately clinging to New Japan's breast for a couple years to maintain interest in their own product. In a truly global entertainment market, very few things are strictly isolated affairs anymore. Wrestling is international and the influences of that internationality show up in plenty of complicated ways. To say that workrate never sells tickets is to just pretend that whole heaps of wrestling fans don't exist, and to say Japan 'doesn't count' ignores them twice as hard. Japan counts in major ways even if you don't want to talk about Japanese promotions and the entire foundation of internet wrestling discussion in America hinges itself on importing Japanese wrestling and dorking out about it. First off sorry for calling you out. I apologize. Second, the guys you mentioned, Misawa, Jericho, Bret, they all had personalities to. Dean Malenko didn't become a huge draw. Bret and Jericho did. My argument is, that the "Workrate" is still like the the icing on the cake. Your argument was that workrate doesn't sell tickets. Nothing about personality. The false dichotomy of workrate and personality is a really pointless and inaccurate one people use mostly just to try and underplay what other people like more, but there's really no way of knowing how many people weigh match quality over personality, how many people believe both are greatly important, how many people will buy a ticket for a show they expect will be good in-ring first and foremost. Workrate is icing on the cake for you, but you aren't making personal claims about what you like to see in wrestling, you're making big, sweeping claims about what draws and what people overall like more, and that's not really something you have the proof to back up. Like, in this thread right now where someone is just asking "How did fans end up caring so much about workrate?" a stance of "They don't, it's not important and nobody cares" needs a lot more support than it's actually getting. The claim people want to pretend workrate matters is some real "I can read minds and know what people really think" junk.
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Post by GodzillaIsMyMonster on Sept 27, 2022 2:31:51 GMT -5
First off sorry for calling you out. I apologize. Second, the guys you mentioned, Misawa, Jericho, Bret, they all had personalities to. Dean Malenko didn't become a huge draw. Bret and Jericho did. My argument is, that the "Workrate" is still like the the icing on the cake. Your argument was that workrate doesn't sell tickets. Nothing about personality. The false dichotomy of workrate and personality is a really pointless and inaccurate one people use mostly just to try and underplay what other people like more, but there's really no way of knowing how many people weigh match quality over personality, how many people believe both are greatly important, how many people will buy a ticket for a show they expect will be good in-ring first and foremost. Workrate is icing on the cake for you, but you aren't making personal claims about what you like to see in wrestling, you're making big, sweeping claims about what draws and what people overall like more, and that's not really something you have the proof to back up. Like, in this thread right now where someone is just asking "How did fans end up caring so much about workrate?" a stance of "They don't, it's not important and nobody cares" needs a lot more support than it's actually getting. The claim people want to pretend workrate matters is some real "I can read minds and know what people really think" junk. I get what you're saying. But let's look at the biggest draw of all time: Hulk Hogan, despite what some sections of the Fandom might think of him now, he is the biggest star in the sports history. He wasn't known for his "workrate". He instead had a routine. And it drew. Huge. Even if you think Austin or the Rock are bigger draws, they to were more about personality.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Sept 27, 2022 2:39:04 GMT -5
Your argument was that workrate doesn't sell tickets. Nothing about personality. The false dichotomy of workrate and personality is a really pointless and inaccurate one people use mostly just to try and underplay what other people like more, but there's really no way of knowing how many people weigh match quality over personality, how many people believe both are greatly important, how many people will buy a ticket for a show they expect will be good in-ring first and foremost. Workrate is icing on the cake for you, but you aren't making personal claims about what you like to see in wrestling, you're making big, sweeping claims about what draws and what people overall like more, and that's not really something you have the proof to back up. Like, in this thread right now where someone is just asking "How did fans end up caring so much about workrate?" a stance of "They don't, it's not important and nobody cares" needs a lot more support than it's actually getting. The claim people want to pretend workrate matters is some real "I can read minds and know what people really think" junk. I get what you're saying. But let's look at the biggest draw of all time: Hulk Hogan, despite what some sections of the Fandom might think of him now, he is the biggest star in the sports history. He wasn't known for his "workrate". He instead had a routine. And it drew. Huge. Even if you think Austin or the Rock are bigger draws, they to were more about personality. No but that's still not a thing to do with what you said! Different things draw at different times in different places. This works in literally every medium and it's why you don't hear a lot of hair metal on the Billboard Hot 100 anymore. You spoke in absolutes about workrate not drawing and if the evidence you have to back it up is a guy drew really really big 25 years ago and he was well known for not working many complicated matches then what you have is a square peg and round hole because these do not fit together. Workrate is a bigger concern now today with the wrestling fans who are fans now today. That's the whole premise being posed by OP, and it was a flawed and kinda ahistoric take on things in the first place, but you aren't even engaging with that, or with the core of the words you actually said.
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Post by GodzillaIsMyMonster on Sept 27, 2022 2:49:28 GMT -5
I get what you're saying. But let's look at the biggest draw of all time: Hulk Hogan, despite what some sections of the Fandom might think of him now, he is the biggest star in the sports history. He wasn't known for his "workrate". He instead had a routine. And it drew. Huge. Even if you think Austin or the Rock are bigger draws, they to were more about personality. No but that's still not a thing to do with what you said! Different things draw at different times in different places. This works in literally every medium and it's why you don't hear a lot of hair metal on the Billboard Hot 100 anymore. You spoke in absolutes about workrate not drawing and if the evidence you have to back it up is a guy drew really really big 25 years ago and he was well known for not working many complicated matches then what you have is a square peg and round hole because these do not fit together. Workrate is a bigger concern now today with the wrestling fans who are fans now today. That's the whole premise being posed by OP, and it was a flawed and kinda ahistoric take on things in the first place, but you aren't even engaging with that, or with the core of the words you actually said. Historically, the biggest draws aren't the guys with just the best workrate. My argument is that it isn't important.
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Post by lockedontarget on Sept 27, 2022 2:49:43 GMT -5
Your argument was that workrate doesn't sell tickets. Nothing about personality. The false dichotomy of workrate and personality is a really pointless and inaccurate one people use mostly just to try and underplay what other people like more, but there's really no way of knowing how many people weigh match quality over personality, how many people believe both are greatly important, how many people will buy a ticket for a show they expect will be good in-ring first and foremost. Workrate is icing on the cake for you, but you aren't making personal claims about what you like to see in wrestling, you're making big, sweeping claims about what draws and what people overall like more, and that's not really something you have the proof to back up. Like, in this thread right now where someone is just asking "How did fans end up caring so much about workrate?" a stance of "They don't, it's not important and nobody cares" needs a lot more support than it's actually getting. The claim people want to pretend workrate matters is some real "I can read minds and know what people really think" junk. I get what you're saying. But let's look at the biggest draw of all time: Hulk Hogan, despite what some sections of the Fandom might think of him now, he is the biggest star in the sports history. He wasn't known for his "workrate". He instead had a routine. And it drew. Huge. Even if you think Austin or the Rock are bigger draws, they to were more about personality. There’s a difference between “doesn’t draw” and “doesn’t draw the most” though. Workrate absolutely does sell tickets. It sells less tickets in America than spectacle perhaps, but like, teenage me absolutely went to WWF shows because I wanted to see Benoit or Jericho or Angle wrestle. I’ve gone to multiple AEW, NJPW, ROH, and WWE shows specifically because I am excited to see the matches. There’s absolutely a market for workrate and multiple promotions have built a successful business model around it. The landscape in general has shifted more towards workrate than before because, well, the overall audience has become more niche and refined. A larger percentage of wrestling fans care about match quality than in the Attitude Era. So the product shifted towards that as well.
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Post by GodzillaIsMyMonster on Sept 27, 2022 2:51:21 GMT -5
I get what you're saying. But let's look at the biggest draw of all time: Hulk Hogan, despite what some sections of the Fandom might think of him now, he is the biggest star in the sports history. He wasn't known for his "workrate". He instead had a routine. And it drew. Huge. Even if you think Austin or the Rock are bigger draws, they to were more about personality. There’s a difference between “doesn’t draw” and “doesn’t draw the most” though. Workrate absolutely does sell tickets. It sells less tickets in America than spectacle perhaps, but like, teenage me absolutely went to WWF shows because I wanted to see Benoit or Jericho or Angle wrestle. I’ve gone to multiple AEW, NJPW, ROH, and WWE shows specifically because I am excited to see the matches. There’s absolutely a market for workrate and multiple promotions have built a successful business model around it. The landscape in general has shifted more towards workrate than before because, well, the overall audience has become more niche and refined. A larger percentage of wrestling fans care about match quality than in the Attitude Era. So the product shifted towards that as well. If Kurt Angle just was a good wrestler, he wouldn't have been interesting. He got over because of his goof ball charisma.
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Post by lockedontarget on Sept 27, 2022 2:53:53 GMT -5
There’s a difference between “doesn’t draw” and “doesn’t draw the most” though. Workrate absolutely does sell tickets. It sells less tickets in America than spectacle perhaps, but like, teenage me absolutely went to WWF shows because I wanted to see Benoit or Jericho or Angle wrestle. I’ve gone to multiple AEW, NJPW, ROH, and WWE shows specifically because I am excited to see the matches. There’s absolutely a market for workrate and multiple promotions have built a successful business model around it. The landscape in general has shifted more towards workrate than before because, well, the overall audience has become more niche and refined. A larger percentage of wrestling fans care about match quality than in the Attitude Era. So the product shifted towards that as well. If Kurt Angle just was a good wrestler, he wouldn't have been interesting. He got over because of his goof ball charisma. You missed my point entirely
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Sept 27, 2022 2:54:15 GMT -5
We're not even moving the goal posts, we're just changing the address of the stadium at this point.
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XIII
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 18,533
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Post by XIII on Sept 27, 2022 2:55:27 GMT -5
I think that it was as simple as people were tired of big guys doing the same tired routine over and over again every night. Then combine that with exposure to Japanese wrestling via WCW and smaller guys started doing more and more of the international style and people just found it more exciting—both the fans and wrestlers. I don’t think it’s much more than that really.
I think that some guys don’t really get as much credit as they deserve for being pioneers in workrate becoming as important as it has though. Off of the top of my head people that I saw as a kid and got me excited about matches more than a character were the Lightning Kid and Jerry Lynn for their series in Global, and Jushin Liger when he would show up in WCW(helps that he looked so cool) but his highlight reel that they would show when he was coming in always made my jaw drop.
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Post by GodzillaIsMyMonster on Sept 27, 2022 2:56:50 GMT -5
If Kurt Angle just was a good wrestler, he wouldn't have been interesting. He got over because of his goof ball charisma. You missed my point entirely Ok.
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Post by GodzillaIsMyMonster on Sept 27, 2022 2:57:19 GMT -5
We're not even moving the goal posts, we're just changing the address of the stadium at this point. I'm just being expressing my opinion.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Sept 27, 2022 3:05:14 GMT -5
We're not even moving the goal posts, we're just changing the address of the stadium at this point. I'm just being expressing my opinion. And you can have your opinions. You can even express them. But responding to people just to not actually engage with their posts or arguments isn't really that.
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Post by GodzillaIsMyMonster on Sept 27, 2022 3:08:15 GMT -5
I'm just being expressing my opinion. And you can have your opinions. You can even express them. But responding to people just to not actually engage with their posts or arguments isn't really that. I thought I was being clear. Workrate doesn't draw. Personalities do.
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Post by lockedontarget on Sept 27, 2022 3:18:53 GMT -5
And you can have your opinions. You can even express them. But responding to people just to not actually engage with their posts or arguments isn't really that. I thought I was being clear. Workrate doesn't draw. Personalities do. Workrate draws it just draws lessThat is the point you are missing. Your argument is based on the false premise that the only thing that is successful is the thing that is most successful. But good matches sell tickets, too.
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Post by GodzillaIsMyMonster on Sept 27, 2022 3:20:07 GMT -5
I thought I was being clear. Workrate doesn't draw. Personalities do. Workrate draws it just draws lessThat is the point you are missing. Your argument is based on the false premise that the only thing that is successful is the thing that is most successful. But good matches sell tickets, too. But noone would care about the matches, if not for the personality. Or amateur wrestling would draw huge.
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Post by Jaws the Shark on Sept 27, 2022 3:42:03 GMT -5
I actually don't think North America and Japan are all that different in terms of wrestling culture. Japanese wrestling is all based around imported American wrestling from the fifties it maintains a lot of the same tropes in terms of characters and stories - even in the cutting edge, modern NJPW you've still got white meat, never-say-die babyfaces and cartoony foreign heels - and I think the things the fans in both places want are fundamentally pretty similar.
And with that, I think workrate and the quality of the match absolutely matters in both places, and always has, but I think the definition of workrate has become somewhat skewed over the past couple of decades. I don't think it's about having a vast array of spectacular moves, it's about how much effort you put into telling the story and having a match that engages the audience and connects with them. We can talk about how important the characters are, and of course they have some importance, but would you buy a ticket to see them knowing they were going to spend fifteen or twenty minutes having a crap match? There's a reason why wrestlers who genuinely can't work don't get or stay over long-term, they always get found out, and anyone who ever has got over as a genuine star can have a good match, even someone like Hogan or Sammartino who wasn't necessarily a ring general.
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