Bo Rida
Fry's dog Seymour
Pulled one over on everyone. Got away with it, this time.
Posts: 23,542
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Post by Bo Rida on Sept 28, 2022 5:26:15 GMT -5
I always like it when really experienced guys in the business are asked a question by an interviewer or fan which incorporates the term, "workrate," and they respond by asking that person to tell them what the definition of "workrate" is. And then that person can't give a verifiably correct answer, because "workrate" is not really a thing in wrestling. It's a term that newsletter writers made up to describe wrestlers who, in their estimation, seem to have longer matches, tend to "do more," or are wrestlers who appear to "try harder" than other wrestlers. It's an imaginary fan measurement. Not something that actually exists. It was always a weird term but has become even more useless over time as the average in-ring quality has risen and the amount of minimally trained bodybuilder types has dropped. Workrate also makes it sound like effort which is understandably insulting to those that work hard and put on decent matches but in a style that doesn't usually score high on Meltzer's scale. Giants and comedy wrestlers in particular.
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Post by The Barber on Sept 28, 2022 6:21:38 GMT -5
Or ROH or 'insert local promotion' would be a huge draw, too. Everyone seems to be attacking you, but I'm gonna be the one that sticks up for you. Every promotion that tried to emphasize 'work rate' over 'character' flopped. No one (besides most of the IWC) wants to see one or two hours of just straight matches and no storyline reason why they are fighting. It's hard to get emotionally into matches that have no rhyme or reason to watch them. Ok, since I just got done saying I think people don't really know what they're saying when they use the word "workrate"...I have to ask what you think "character" means. Does it mean gimmick? Does it mean something that can only be expressed in 10-20 minute promos/segments/angles? Is it something that's communicated in the ring? Because if you think ROH didn't involve a lot of character work, then you didn't watch ROH. Also really weird to compare the drawing power of promotions that had literally millions of dollars pumped into them for decades now versus ones that had to get off the ground as startup companies 20 years ago. When I talk about character, I mean gimmick and storyline. Or ROH or 'insert local promotion' would be a huge draw, too. Everyone seems to be attacking you, but I'm gonna be the one that sticks up for you. Every promotion that tried to emphasize 'work rate' over 'character' flopped. No one (besides most of the IWC) wants to see one or two hours of just straight matches and no storyline reason why they are fighting. It's hard to get emotionally into matches that have no rhyme or reason to watch them. To be fair, ROH ended up going on a downturn after WWE (and to a lesser extent TNA) signed away all their best talent very quickly. ECW was placed in a similar position, and more recently PWG and the British indys; whatever the style or quality of your booking, that's a difficult thing to rebuild from. Fair enough. But Hogan had a good workrate, I dont care what the IWC says, Hogan was adept at changing up his style and playing to the crowd. He also was a great seller that made people sympathize with him. So to me hes a good worker. Oh yea. He's amazing. But I was operating under the assumption that in this thread "workrate" meant technical and/or flippy stuff. I did, too...with the addition of 'no selling' moves of any kind.
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Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby
Grimlock
Blanket burrito season is back, and I never left the blankets
Posts: 12,834
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Post by Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby on Sept 28, 2022 9:19:03 GMT -5
Y'know actually can we talk about the fact that even if Attitude audiences didn't care about "workrate" they sure loved watching chairshots to the head and huge bumps?
Toning down some of that left a void that fancier moves could fill.
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TWERKIN' MAGGLE
Crow T. Robot
Black Lives Matter
Posts: 45,884
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Post by TWERKIN' MAGGLE on Sept 28, 2022 9:28:15 GMT -5
Nah man, I'm not someone who holds on to weird arbitrary grudges toward strangers I am, your ass goin' in the freezer!
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Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby
Grimlock
Blanket burrito season is back, and I never left the blankets
Posts: 12,834
Member is Online
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Post by Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby on Sept 28, 2022 10:27:00 GMT -5
Y'know actually can we talk about the fact that even if Attitude audiences didn't care about "workrate" they sure loved watching chairshots to the head and huge bumps? Toning down some of that left a void that fancier moves could fill. Add on to this: Attitude fans would go on about how great the Mankind/Undertaker Hell in a Cell was. And then Mick Foley wrote a best-selling memoir and cut a bunch of promos about how honestly, that match wasn't so great, you should see his match with Shawn Michaels that nobody remembered if you wanted to see his actual best match. I can't be the only fan who watched Michaels/Mankind at the first opportunity and agreed with Mick on which match was better. Basically: let's not pretend that fans didn't want exciting stuff happening in the ring. The Attitude Era's excitement just included a lot more weapon shots, a lot more crowd-pleasing goofy moves like the Worm and the Ho Train and the Bronco Buster and the Stinkface, and so very much outside interference.
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Post by HMARK Center on Sept 28, 2022 11:08:50 GMT -5
Y'know actually can we talk about the fact that even if Attitude audiences didn't care about "workrate" they sure loved watching chairshots to the head and huge bumps? Toning down some of that left a void that fancier moves could fill. Add on to this: Attitude fans would go on about how great the Mankind/Undertaker Hell in a Cell was. And then Mick Foley wrote a best-selling memoir and cut a bunch of promos about how honestly, that match wasn't so great, you should see his match with Shawn Michaels that nobody remembered if you wanted to see his actual best match. I can't be the only fan who watched Michaels/Mankind at the first opportunity and agreed with Mick on which match was better. Basically: let's not pretend that fans didn't want exciting stuff happening in the ring. The Attitude Era's excitement just included a lot more weapon shots, a lot more crowd-pleasing goofy moves like the Worm and the Ho Train and the Bronco Buster and the Stinkface, and so very much outside interference. And again, the other big part of the Attitude Era? It burned out pretty quickly. It's crazy to think of how long guys like Bruno were on top in New York, then realize it means that Hogan's '84-'92 run was kind of shorter than that, and then we move ahead and the Attitude run basically hits its stride in '98 and fades by '01. It was an era that hit big due to being something people weren't used to, first with Hogan's shocking turn in WCW and the rise of the nWo and then with WWF's whole change in presentation, but after awhile you need to give people more to sink their teeth into than just the shock of how different things feel. Not to say neither WWF nor WCW ever did that, mind; there's certainly stuff we can go back to and say "that was a really great match" or "that was a really well booked story" from that era. But when the shock wore off, so too did some of the reasons people had gravitated to pro wrestling in such big numbers during those days.
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pinja
Unicron
Posts: 2,999
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Post by pinja on Sept 28, 2022 11:56:27 GMT -5
This Player Hating Mothman and Ultimo Gallos: Many thanks for your explanations. It's always nice to learn about how the business is organized. For the fans, is there a difference between an old territory and a local indie promotion of today? Or are the differences strictly behind the scenes?
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Ultimo Gallos
Grimlock
Dreams SUCK!Nightmares live FOREVER!
Posts: 14,407
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Post by Ultimo Gallos on Sept 28, 2022 12:12:54 GMT -5
This Player Hating Mothman and Ultimo Gallos: Many thanks for your explanations. It's always nice to learn about how the business is organized. For the fans, is there a difference between an old territory and a local indie promotion of today? Or are the differences strictly behind the scenes? Down here in the deep south the indies are the new territories. Cause each indie has the towns it runs and other indies will not run them without permission. Really the major difference is unlike the territories most of the indies do not have TV. For example there is at least 20 indies running in MS. Out of that 20 ,2 of them have TV. In that they have a show that airs on TV. Sure plenty of them have a weekly show on say youtube or Facebook or whatever. But only SWA and EPW have legit TV. Part of that is cause TV isn't cheap. Heard what SWA has to pay for TV and it isn't cheap. And they have a 30 minute show every other week. The other difference between the old territories and deep south modern indies is that back in the territory days except for the jobbers the rest of say the Mid South roster didn't work for lets say Memphis. Now with the indies if you work for Battlezone odds are good you also work for SWA and BIW. Sure you will have a promoter here and there that will tell their roster "if you work for me you don't work for the Wiliamsons." But that is rare.
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Sept 28, 2022 12:44:19 GMT -5
Warlord retiring.
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pinja
Unicron
Posts: 2,999
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Post by pinja on Sept 29, 2022 14:21:15 GMT -5
This Player Hating Mothman and Ultimo Gallos : Many thanks for your explanations. It's always nice to learn about how the business is organized. For the fans, is there a difference between an old territory and a local indie promotion of today? Or are the differences strictly behind the scenes? Down here in the deep south the indies are the new territories. Cause each indie has the towns it runs and other indies will not run them without permission. Really the major difference is unlike the territories most of the indies do not have TV. For example there is at least 20 indies running in MS. Out of that 20 ,2 of them have TV. In that they have a show that airs on TV. Sure plenty of them have a weekly show on say youtube or Facebook or whatever. But only SWA and EPW have legit TV. Part of that is cause TV isn't cheap. Heard what SWA has to pay for TV and it isn't cheap. And they have a 30 minute show every other week. The other difference between the old territories and deep south modern indies is that back in the territory days except for the jobbers the rest of say the Mid South roster didn't work for lets say Memphis. Now with the indies if you work for Battlezone odds are good you also work for SWA and BIW. Sure you will have a promoter here and there that will tell their roster "if you work for me you don't work for the Wiliamsons." But that is rare. But every territory still had big name journeymen? People like Brodie and Andre travelled from territory to territory, didn't they? But I get the point. Lawler wrestling outside Memphis or Bruno outside of New York must have been quite unthinkable.
The tv situation is interesting. Are there local tv stations that have a wide enough audience so a local indie can sustain itself from a deal or is it more about the publicity?
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Ultimo Gallos
Grimlock
Dreams SUCK!Nightmares live FOREVER!
Posts: 14,407
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Post by Ultimo Gallos on Sept 29, 2022 15:05:08 GMT -5
Down here in the deep south the indies are the new territories. Cause each indie has the towns it runs and other indies will not run them without permission. Really the major difference is unlike the territories most of the indies do not have TV. For example there is at least 20 indies running in MS. Out of that 20 ,2 of them have TV. In that they have a show that airs on TV. Sure plenty of them have a weekly show on say youtube or Facebook or whatever. But only SWA and EPW have legit TV. Part of that is cause TV isn't cheap. Heard what SWA has to pay for TV and it isn't cheap. And they have a 30 minute show every other week. The other difference between the old territories and deep south modern indies is that back in the territory days except for the jobbers the rest of say the Mid South roster didn't work for lets say Memphis. Now with the indies if you work for Battlezone odds are good you also work for SWA and BIW. Sure you will have a promoter here and there that will tell their roster "if you work for me you don't work for the Wiliamsons." But that is rare. But every territory still had big name journeymen? People like Brodie and Andre travelled from territory to territory, didn't they? But I get the point. Lawler wrestling outside Memphis or Bruno outside of New York must have been quite unthinkable. The tv situation is interesting. Are there local tv stations that have a wide enough audience so a local indie can sustain itself from a deal or is it more about the publicity?
There is still guys that are like a journeyman. One that works every fed and is known for giving a good match is The Prince of Pain Joe Kane. DUde is close to 55 and in amazing shape. And all the promoters in MS/LA/AL know that for what Joe charges you will get a good match no matter who Joe is facing. Plus it gives us a chance to chant "JOE IS GONNA KILL YOU" at rookies. As for TV. I think it is more of a status thing with feds. "Oh come work for us we got TV." With SWA they air in every market in MS besides Jackson.Jackson is the major TV market in MS. For example if you have Dish or DirecTV and want your locals in MS you get hte Jackson stations. Now SWA might not be on TV in Jackson cause of the cost,years ago MS Championship Wrestling got tv in Jackson. A hour long slot on the FOX channel at 6am Saturdays was 300 a week. EPW on the other hand airs in one area,been told the channel it is on goes all the way up to Memphis. I know with SWA they got enough Sponsors to cover the cost of TV time. Plus they only have a 30 minute show every other week. Oddly most of the people I know that watch SWA watch it off FITE. Cause on FITE they aren't limited to a 30 minute time frame. I use to watch SWA every week on FITE. But once the pandemic hit and it became a "best of " show I stopped. Mostly cause there is no way i'm watching an hour of Hillbilly Joe matches. I know FITE is available outside the states. Look on there for SWA Championship Wrestling and give it a watch. The got two big events in October. One is Saturday. Then a few weeks later is a show they are co promoting with Battlezone. Never thought I would see SWA and BZ working together. But glad it has happened. But then all the feds in MS try to work with each other,besides Legacy. And well Legacy one of hte co owners use to own and run SWA but got ran out of there. Don't blame them. This dude is rumored to have ties to a certain group that loves them some white sheets......
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krozor
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,361
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Post by krozor on Sept 29, 2022 17:24:20 GMT -5
The ability to work a match has always and will always be important, of course. But defining workrate in terms of "doing moves" and "how many moves you can do" in the way it often was and sometimes still is, I think ECW - out of necessity to stand out with whoever they could get to show up - giving showcases to incredibly talented people like Mysterio, Benoit, Guererro, Malenko, etc. was really important. Especially with that helping to get so many of them into an actual national showcase in WCW.
Nitro giving those first hours over to cruisers and luchadores, people who would only have been seen in the US by the die-hard tape traders, was significant. Seeing Rey Jr. move the way he did was eye-opening, and pairing him with a perfect match like Malenko gave people a taste for something different, and the online clamor for seeing guys like Benoit and Booker T get a chance to be bigger stars came directly out of that.
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Post by The Barber on Sept 30, 2022 6:03:31 GMT -5
And again, the other big part of the Attitude Era? It burned out pretty quickly. One of the main reasons why the Attitude era burned out quick is because WCW and ECW were gone. Had WCW stayed, the Attitude Era would have been longer. But every territory still had big name journeymen? People like Brodie and Andre travelled from territory to territory, didn't they? But I get the point. Lawler wrestling outside Memphis or Bruno outside of New York must have been quite unthinkable. The tv situation is interesting. Are there local tv stations that have a wide enough audience so a local indie can sustain itself from a deal or is it more about the publicity?
EPW, on the other hand, airs in one area and I've been told the channel it is on goes all the way up to Memphis. Which channel?
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Sept 30, 2022 8:08:18 GMT -5
Y'know actually can we talk about the fact that even if Attitude audiences didn't care about "workrate" they sure loved watching chairshots to the head and huge bumps? Toning down some of that left a void that fancier moves could fill. Add on to this: Attitude fans would go on about how great the Mankind/Undertaker Hell in a Cell was. And then Mick Foley wrote a best-selling memoir and cut a bunch of promos about how honestly, that match wasn't so great, you should see his match with Shawn Michaels that nobody remembered if you wanted to see his actual best match. I can't be the only fan who watched Michaels/Mankind at the first opportunity and agreed with Mick on which match was better. Basically: let's not pretend that fans didn't want exciting stuff happening in the ring. The Attitude Era's excitement just included a lot more weapon shots, a lot more crowd-pleasing goofy moves like the Worm and the Ho Train and the Bronco Buster and the Stinkface, and so very much outside interference. Also, Austin was the top guy and even as Stone Cold, “great skilled wrestler “ was a consistently big part of his gimmick from day one as Ringmaster.
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Ultimo Gallos
Grimlock
Dreams SUCK!Nightmares live FOREVER!
Posts: 14,407
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Post by Ultimo Gallos on Sept 30, 2022 10:57:30 GMT -5
And again, the other big part of the Attitude Era? It burned out pretty quickly. One of the main reasons why the Attitude era burned out quick is because WCW and ECW were gone. Had WCW stayed, the Attitude Era would have been longer. EPW, on the other hand, airs in one area and I've been told the channel it is on goes all the way up to Memphis. Which channel? No clue. They also post the episodes on YT
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