J is Justice
Wade Wilson
Will now be grateful.
Hi.
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Post by J is Justice on Oct 12, 2022 16:57:39 GMT -5
A lot of HBK discussion lately. đ You ask most of the wrestlers in WWE today who inspired them to become wrestlers and they'll probably say HBK is one of them, that's all I know. His influence is all over the product (whether that's a good thing or not is up to you) Aliyah definitely honed her craft watching HBK.
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Post by I'm Team Bayley and Indi on Oct 12, 2022 17:25:15 GMT -5
I mean right off the top of my head you would be removing the establishment of Hell in a Cell, Ladder, Iron Man, and Elimination Chamber matches as major deals, the rise of DX (which would then snowball into Evolution and Legacy and arguably AEW and...), the Austin / Tyson angle that was a gigantic part of propelling WWF to beating WCW, the Montreal Screwjob, Ric Flair's sendoff, the matches that arguably cemented shifting Undertaker's Streak from an interesting curiosity to a legitimate high point of the show each year that led to it being the launching point for Brock going from Big Deal to WWE's Final Boss... Like I'd be hardpressed to think of many people who wrestling history would be more altered by removing them from it. HBK himself wasn't integral to any of those moments. Anyone could have filled his spot. at this point, your unwillingness to give HBK credit for absolutely anything, I have to assume he personally dissed you in real life or owes you money or something
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Post by Citizen Snips Has Left on Oct 12, 2022 17:30:31 GMT -5
You don't think a clip of an incredibly sweaty IRS holding Razor in a chinlock next to a ladder would be replayed on nearly every WrestleMania highlight package for the next 30 years like HBK's big splash has been? "I'm sorry, I love you." Ya know, IRS actually wouldâve been the perfect nemesis for FlairâŠ
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Andee9001
Samurai Cop
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Post by Andee9001 on Oct 12, 2022 18:42:35 GMT -5
What I've always found kind of funny about DX is that during his run as the leader Triple H was pretty handily the part of it people least cared about. It's not that he wasn't over, he was, but you had X-Pac as the valiant underdog, the New Age Outlaws doing their thing, Chyna being super eye-catching, and then you just had Triple H as the kind of hanger-on to the rest who didn't really actually add anything. But then the interesting thing there is that he went on to become the biggest star out of that group. His early face run from 98 to 99 was solid enough. He won the IC title of The Rock in that awesome ladder match but then got injured shortly afterwards until the end of the year. When he came back he was just spinning his wheels until his heel turn and then he never left the main event scene. X Pac, Chyna and the New Age Outlaws were all insanely over. 4 of the most over acts from 98 to 99 but slowly but surely they all fizzled out due to drugs and personal issues. Triple H always seemed to me during that time that he was over by asociation with DX but in the end he was really the only one with his head on straight. I think that reflected during the 2000 DX run.
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Bo Rida
Fry's dog Seymour
Pulled one over on everyone. Got away with it, this time.
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Post by Bo Rida on Oct 12, 2022 18:55:11 GMT -5
In what metric would you say heâs a bigger star? And are you saying that just because Triple H was on top when HBK was gone and wrestling was at its peak? Look at merchandise and buyrates. HBK was pretty much never a draw. You're saying HBK never sold much merch in a dx thread? They sold so much they've been reuniting and putting out new t-shirts for 25 years!
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Oct 12, 2022 19:54:55 GMT -5
Lol, thatâs completely not true. It was the level of his in-ring greatness that led to the Ladder match and Hell in a Cell matches being established as something that should be done again. He was directly responsible and integral for the rise of dX , so not sure how youâd put someone else in that spot when at the time Hunter was a mid card nobody. Then in his later career, itâs his mic work and in-ring prowess that was integral to the Ric Flair send-off and Taker streak angles playing so well. In ring greatness is subjective. In-ring greatness is subjective, but whether or not someone is a star is going to come down to how they're perceived broadly, and while that perception is subjective, the fact that that perception is there is way more objective. HBK is a star because he's seen as one of the best in the business by a lot of people, involved in multiple big historical moments and a plethora of matches that people praise. If people are holding that HBK is the bigger star between him and Triple H then he's got to have accomplished something. Drawn something. Made someone care. Looking at his drawing power during historically bad times for the company alone is ridiculous. Diesel was the worst-drawing WWE champion of ever for a very long time, but he went on to do other things in his career and those things were acclaimed and drew well. You're conflating your subjective views on HBK with this objective idea that he can't be a star to the entire rest of the audience because you don't think he is.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Oct 12, 2022 20:07:15 GMT -5
Honestly Shawn Michaels could be removed from WWE history and not much is lost. I mean right off the top of my head you would be removing the establishment of Hell in a Cell, Ladder, Iron Man, and Elimination Chamber matches as major deals, the rise of DX (which would then snowball into Evolution and Legacy and arguably AEW and...), the Austin / Tyson angle that was a gigantic part of propelling WWF to beating WCW, the Montreal Screwjob, Ric Flair's sendoff, the matches that arguably cemented shifting Undertaker's Streak from an interesting curiosity to a legitimate high point of the show each year that led to it being the launching point for Brock going from Big Deal to WWE's Final Boss... Like I'd be hardpressed to think of many people who wrestling history would be more altered by removing them from it. Not to mention all of the people that were inspired by Shawn Michaels.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2022 21:21:35 GMT -5
In ring greatness is subjective. In-ring greatness is subjective, but whether or not someone is a star is going to come down to how they're perceived broadly, and while that perception is subjective, the fact that that perception is there is way more objective. HBK is a star because he's seen as one of the best in the business by a lot of people, involved in multiple big historical moments and a plethora of matches that people praise. If people are holding that HBK is the bigger star between him and Triple H then he's got to have accomplished something. Drawn something. Made someone care. Looking at his drawing power during historically bad times for the company alone is ridiculous. Diesel was the worst-drawing WWE champion of ever for a very long time, but he went on to do other things in his career and those things were acclaimed and drew well. You're conflating your subjective views on HBK with this objective idea that he can't be a star to the entire rest of the audience because you don't think he is. Diesel is a very good point. If he didn't go to WCW, everyone would've considered him a complete failure because ratings dipped when he was WWF Champion in the New Generation Era. But then he changed the business with Hogan and Hall and he was insanely over in the Wolfpac as a face. This is why I defend Michaels, Bret and Taker. They kept the company afloat if anything. People say "Austin saved it" and while he had a big impact, if Vince didn't decide to change the vibe of the company and copy ECW's vision, Steve Austin would've just been "The Ringmaster", a forgotten New Generation midcarder who never got to fulfil his true potential because the company wouldn't let him stick the finger up, kick the bosses ass every week and overall be more badass.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Oct 12, 2022 21:39:44 GMT -5
In-ring greatness is subjective, but whether or not someone is a star is going to come down to how they're perceived broadly, and while that perception is subjective, the fact that that perception is there is way more objective. HBK is a star because he's seen as one of the best in the business by a lot of people, involved in multiple big historical moments and a plethora of matches that people praise. If people are holding that HBK is the bigger star between him and Triple H then he's got to have accomplished something. Drawn something. Made someone care. Looking at his drawing power during historically bad times for the company alone is ridiculous. Diesel was the worst-drawing WWE champion of ever for a very long time, but he went on to do other things in his career and those things were acclaimed and drew well. You're conflating your subjective views on HBK with this objective idea that he can't be a star to the entire rest of the audience because you don't think he is. Diesel is a very good point. If he didn't go to WCW, everyone would've considered him a complete failure because ratings dipped when he was WWF Champion in the New Generation Era. But then he changed the business with Hogan and Hall and he was insanely over in the Wolfpac as a face. This is why I defend Michaels, Bret and Taker. They kept the company afloat if anything. People say "Austin saved it" and while he had a big impact, if Vince didn't decide to change the vibe of the company and copy ECW's vision, Steve Austin would've just been "The Ringmaster", a forgotten New Generation midcarder who never got to fulfil his true potential because the company wouldn't let him stick the finger up, kick the bosses ass every week and overall be more badass. Diesel without the NWO run goes down as an okay upper rung guy who failed to draw. Another body from the New Generation era. A guy who's looked at most fondly for his matches against Bret and Shawn like most other guys from that era. But he got second life breathed into him with the NWO. Shawn maybe missed out on a lot of the boom period of the Attitude Era, but when he returned, he was an elder statesman workhorse who commanded respect and attention, and straightened out an until-then rocky and unstable career. Shawn never got to reinvent the business the way Nash did, but one of the reasons we don't have later title run drawing figures is because Shawn didn't want to touch the world title aside from one whole month for more than the last decade of his career. THe guys who held the company afloat during the New Generation era absolutely deserve defense and some asterisks beside their numbers. They were able to carve out legacies and pop culture footprints even during a massive downswing in the business, and realistically, if they hadn't been there to do it, whoever was in their place probably would've done even worse. By and large, I think most wrestling fans understand that situation and that's why there's been so much respect over the years for Bret and Shawn in light of the work they did during the comapny's darkest times, and how their best days were worked in relative obscurity, where both wound down as things were picking up and didn't really have places in the big days to come. They're the friends who stuck with you when you were going through hell. They're the guy you work with who handled an insane crisis and kept everything from going wrong.
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Matt
El Dandy
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Post by Matt on Oct 12, 2022 22:08:48 GMT -5
It doesnât really seem like Shawn enjoys doing it at all.
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Cranjis McBasketball
Crow T. Robot
Knew what the hell that thing was supposed to be
Peace Love and Nothing But
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Oct 13, 2022 0:53:01 GMT -5
Triple H should form a band with Garfunkel, Messina, Oates and Lisa.
He's always runner up.
He was runner up to Austin, HBK, Foley, Chyna, Taker, Rock, and then marrying the bosses' daughter.
He's a damn fine wrestler and by all accounts seems like a great guy, but he's a runner up.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Oct 13, 2022 1:35:51 GMT -5
"I'm sorry, I love you." Ya know, IRS actually wouldâve been the perfect nemesis for Flair⊠Except IRS is the babyface in that feud 'Ric the taxes you haven't paid could fund the entire state of Florida for a month'
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Post by stoptheclocks on Oct 13, 2022 2:04:59 GMT -5
HBK couldn't be the version of himself that led DX even if he wanted to. I don't think there's anything more to it than that.
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Oct 13, 2022 3:38:35 GMT -5
No mention of Rick Rude in that reunion.
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Post by Mid-Carder on Oct 13, 2022 4:17:12 GMT -5
I mean right off the top of my head you would be removing the establishment of Hell in a Cell, Ladder, Iron Man, and Elimination Chamber matches as major deals, the rise of DX (which would then snowball into Evolution and Legacy and arguably AEW and...), the Austin / Tyson angle that was a gigantic part of propelling WWF to beating WCW, the Montreal Screwjob, Ric Flair's sendoff, the matches that arguably cemented shifting Undertaker's Streak from an interesting curiosity to a legitimate high point of the show each year that led to it being the launching point for Brock going from Big Deal to WWE's Final Boss... Like I'd be hardpressed to think of many people who wrestling history would be more altered by removing them from it. Not to mention all of the people that were inspired by Shawn Michaels. And all the doors he (and Bret) broke down as a smaller guy
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Post by David-Arquette was in WCW 2000 on Oct 13, 2022 4:54:54 GMT -5
They were definitely a huge part of the show during that time and were a âhuge deal.â They main evented shows, opened shows, were featured heavily every week etc. But youâre right that they werenât the main attraction when HBK left like Austin and Rock were (or the nWo was on the other channel). They were definitely a very over act that did well and sold a lot of merch. But they were not main eventers in the sense that they were the top attraction. And that's totally okay. Being at that level during a boom period is a great place to be. I do think they are often portrayed as more important than Austin/Rock though throughout my lifetime. And in terms of Hunter's career, 2000 is much more important in terms of his legacy than 1998 but one tends to be featured more heavily. I was just thinking the same thing. My perception is probably skewed because, watching wrestling during '98 and '99 I only had access to Superstars, Shotgun, etc. The weekly highlights on those shows only really covered the main event scene. So Austin, Undertaker, Kane, Vince, and later The Rock, Ministry, and The Corporation. Very rarely was DX highlighted on those shows, from my memory. Now of course, DX were a featured attraction, sold a tonne of merch, and were one of the reasons WWF gained the popularity it did, but I date say they could have been a flash in the pan group that disbanded in mid '98 and the overall result would have been the same. Austin and his feud with McMahon were carrying the fed. However, if you watch these retrospectives you could easily be fooled into thinking that DX, and specifically Triple H were the driving force behind WWF kicking ass in the ratings.
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Post by PTBartman on Oct 13, 2022 7:50:42 GMT -5
In-ring greatness is subjective, but whether or not someone is a star is going to come down to how they're perceived broadly, and while that perception is subjective, the fact that that perception is there is way more objective. HBK is a star because he's seen as one of the best in the business by a lot of people, involved in multiple big historical moments and a plethora of matches that people praise. If people are holding that HBK is the bigger star between him and Triple H then he's got to have accomplished something. Drawn something. Made someone care. Looking at his drawing power during historically bad times for the company alone is ridiculous. Diesel was the worst-drawing WWE champion of ever for a very long time, but he went on to do other things in his career and those things were acclaimed and drew well. You're conflating your subjective views on HBK with this objective idea that he can't be a star to the entire rest of the audience because you don't think he is. Diesel is a very good point. If he didn't go to WCW, everyone would've considered him a complete failure because ratings dipped when he was WWF Champion in the New Generation Era. But then he changed the business with Hogan and Hall and he was insanely over in the Wolfpac as a face. This is why I defend Michaels, Bret and Taker. They kept the company afloat if anything. People say "Austin saved it" and while he had a big impact, if Vince didn't decide to change the vibe of the company and copy ECW's vision, Steve Austin would've just been "The Ringmaster", a forgotten New Generation midcarder who never got to fulfil his true potential because the company wouldn't let him stick the finger up, kick the bosses ass every week and overall be more badass. But we might have gotten Stone Cold IRS, talk about your boom periods
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Post by Confused Mark Wahlberg on Oct 13, 2022 8:35:30 GMT -5
DX leader HHH to me was like when Scottie Pippen took over the Bulls
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Oct 13, 2022 9:17:45 GMT -5
What I've always found kind of funny about DX is that during his run as the leader Triple H was pretty handily the part of it people least cared about. It's not that he wasn't over, he was, but you had X-Pac as the valiant underdog, the New Age Outlaws doing their thing, Chyna being super eye-catching, and then you just had Triple H as the kind of hanger-on to the rest who didn't really actually add anything. But then the interesting thing there is that he went on to become the biggest star out of that group. His early face run from 98 to 99 was solid enough. He won the IC title of The Rock in that awesome ladder match but then got injured shortly afterwards until the end of the year. When he came back he was just spinning his wheels until his heel turn and then he never left the main event scene. X Pac, Chyna and the New Age Outlaws were all insanely over. 4 of the most over acts from 98 to 99 but slowly but surely they all fizzled out due to drugs and personal issues. Triple H always seemed to me during that time that he was over by asociation with DX but in the end he was really the only one with his head on straight. I think that reflected during the 2000 DX run. HHH was like the main character of a sitcom. He's the leader, holds it together and gives it direction, but because of that he has to be kinda the straight man so he's no one's favourite, they like all the wacky side characters.
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Post by Citizen Snips Has Left on Oct 13, 2022 9:25:21 GMT -5
Not to mention all of the people that were inspired by Shawn Michaels. And all the doors he (and Bret) broke down as a smaller guy Not to discount Bret/HBKâs importance but it always sort of bugs me that the âBret/HBK opened the door for smaller guysâ theory is dependent on forgetting Randy Savage was around their size as well.
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