tirtefaa
Unicron
If you wanna know the truth, you gotta dig up Johnny Booth.
Posts: 2,829
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Post by tirtefaa on Oct 13, 2022 10:00:08 GMT -5
Look at buyrates, attendance, ratings and merch sales. HBK is the most over pushed star in WWE. This has already been thoroughly debunked, but please show me the massive drop off of Shawn as champion compared to anyone who was champion after 1994 and before Austin in 1998. For the 1000th time, no one was drawing. Diesel, Bret, Shawn, Sid...all guys I like. None of them were turning the business around. The only guy you can pin that on is Vince McMahon.
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Post by GodzillaIsMyMonster on Oct 13, 2022 10:22:35 GMT -5
Look at buyrates, attendance, ratings and merch sales. HBK is the most over pushed star in WWE. This has already been thoroughly debunked, but please show me the massive drop off of Shawn as champion compared to anyone who was champion after 1994 and before Austin in 1998. For the 1000th time, no one was drawing. Diesel, Bret, Shawn, Sid...all guys I like. None of them were turning the business around. The only guy you can pin that on is Vince McMahon. Except you're wrong. The reason Vince defaulted back to Bret during that period is because he was a draw. Not in the States, but internationally.
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Mecca
Wade Wilson
Posts: 25,055
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Post by Mecca on Oct 13, 2022 10:51:16 GMT -5
Shawn Michaels was influential for the style he worked sure, there weren't Rey Mysterio's etc in American wrestling at the time. For America what he did was influential in the ring and I'm sure it inspired a lot of today's workers because he stood out. However he didn't move the needle in an attendance type of way at all. Matter of fact his big face run culminated in him being booed out of the building against Sid.
I have nothing against HBK but he wasn't a box office draw.
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tirtefaa
Unicron
If you wanna know the truth, you gotta dig up Johnny Booth.
Posts: 2,829
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Post by tirtefaa on Oct 13, 2022 11:31:56 GMT -5
Except you're wrong. The reason Vince defaulted back to Bret during that period is because he was a draw. Not in the States, but internationally. Except you're wrong, go back and look at international tours. Bret wasn't drawing major numbers compared to anyone else around that time. You tried this argument before.
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Mecca
Wade Wilson
Posts: 25,055
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Post by Mecca on Oct 13, 2022 12:30:35 GMT -5
Except you're wrong. The reason Vince defaulted back to Bret during that period is because he was a draw. Not in the States, but internationally. Except you're wrong, go back and look at international tours. Bret wasn't drawing major numbers compared to anyone else around that time. You tried this argument before. Mid 90s WWF wasn't setting anything on fire, that is what it is. The only thing Bret gets over the rest of the guys is he was a long term champion that fans stayed invested in. Shawn and Diesel both had their runs basically tank out with fans turning on them.
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Post by polarbearpete on Oct 13, 2022 13:15:02 GMT -5
Except you're wrong, go back and look at international tours. Bret wasn't drawing major numbers compared to anyone else around that time. You tried this argument before. Mid 90s WWF wasn't setting anything on fire, that is what it is. The only thing Bret gets over the rest of the guys is he was a long term champion that fans stayed invested in. Shawn and Diesel both had their runs basically tank out with fans turning on them. Prior to Survivor Series 1996 at MSG, did Shawn get booed anywhere else? I watched back then and I don’t remember the boos coming prior to that.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Oct 13, 2022 14:19:01 GMT -5
I mean even if we accept the idea Shawn drew nothing ever, that still only gets you the equivalent of "The Velvet Underground sold no records, they were never big music stars and could be removed from music history". It's still a massively reductive view of everything about Shawn's legacy.
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Post by Non Banjoble Tokens on Oct 14, 2022 0:40:40 GMT -5
Not to mention the "reunion" left off one of the most important DX members of all time....
{Spoiler}{SPOILER: CLICK TO SHOW}
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Nr1Humanoid
Hank Scorpio
Is the #3 humanoid at best.
Posts: 5,481
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Post by Nr1Humanoid on Oct 14, 2022 7:13:41 GMT -5
One of the few times HHH deserves the credit WWE gives him.
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Post by EvenBaldobombHasAJob on Oct 14, 2022 8:39:00 GMT -5
See for me Triple H was the biggest because by the time I was watching, Shawn was already gone.
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Oct 14, 2022 8:50:46 GMT -5
Except you're wrong. The reason Vince defaulted back to Bret during that period is because he was a draw. Not in the States, but internationally. Except you're wrong, go back and look at international tours. Bret wasn't drawing major numbers compared to anyone else around that time. You tried this argument before. I've always thought this was the case though. Dave wrote this up when he retired in 2000: "Suddenly, he was the biggest star in the company, particularly internationally, where WWF frequently toured because the American business had hit the skids. Hart's run on top can be viewed in one of two days. It wasn't a big business period in the United States, although very strong internationally. Most of the years he was the focal point of the company were money losers. While he was a bigger draw than some of the other champions of that era, his numbers hardly match up to the Austins and Rocks of today, or the Hogans of the previous era. Others feel that he was the glue that held the company together during a period that at times, the company seemed on the verge of collapse. He walked away, to pursue acting, and maybe to watch his arch-rival, Shawn Michaels, fall flat on his face after being anointed the new big star, but came back a few months later, spurning a much larger offer from the opposition in the middle of a heated wrestling war to return to his role as the top star in the company and a 20-year contract. Then, with the company still losing money and his salary being by far the highest in the company, he was basically phased down and in a sense, pressured out, but not before being a key component of probably the two main items that led to the company's business turnaround that would take place the next year, the creation of the babyface Stone Cold Steve Austin and the heat that followed the U.S. vs. Canada feud in the summer of 1997, and the Survivor Series match and aftermath, which created Austin's biggest rival, the heel Vince McMahon."
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Post by Mid-Carder on Oct 14, 2022 10:11:00 GMT -5
Yeah they aren't Hogan and they aren't Austin but without Bret and Shawn there'd probably be no WWF at all.
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thecrusherwi
El Dandy
the Financially Responsible Man
Brawl For All
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Post by thecrusherwi on Oct 14, 2022 10:52:46 GMT -5
Shawn Michaels is the Bob Dylan of wrestling: there have been bigger stars, but his work has been as influential to others in his craft as anyone else to ever do it. Everyone was covering Bob Dylan’s songs in the 60s and 70s and some were getting bigger hits with Dylan’s songs than Dylan was. And the modern wrestling work style is heavily influenced by HBK’s work style, probably more than anyone else’s in recent memory.
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Dub H
Crow T. Robot
Captain Pixel: the Game Master
I ❤ Aniki
Posts: 47,848
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Post by Dub H on Oct 14, 2022 12:32:06 GMT -5
Triple H should form a band with Garfunkel, Messina, Oates and Lisa. He's always runner up. He was runner up to Austin, HBK, Foley, Chyna, Taker, Rock, and then marrying the bosses' daughter. He's a damn fine wrestler and by all accounts seems like a great guy, but he's a runner up. I will disagree hard with he seems like a great guy. Also he was the definition of B+ Player, a solid wrestler, he wasnt boring,could talk fairly well, but he also had nothing special,he didnt sell crazy amount of merch nor draw crazy numbers nor could you argue that (as a wrestler) he was influential.
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Dub H
Crow T. Robot
Captain Pixel: the Game Master
I ❤ Aniki
Posts: 47,848
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Post by Dub H on Oct 14, 2022 12:36:00 GMT -5
My mom only knows who Hulk Hogan, Macho Man, and John Cena are if that helps anyone in this thread. From my friends that (are fairly young 25-30, for comparison of people that are more in the culture) most only know Hogan, Macho Man, Cena, The Rock. A few "That luchador with the iconic mask"(Rey Mysterio). A COUPLE of then know Kenny Omega but thats because they love fighting games.
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thecrusherwi
El Dandy
the Financially Responsible Man
Brawl For All
Posts: 7,656
Member is Online
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Post by thecrusherwi on Oct 14, 2022 12:53:17 GMT -5
My mom only knows who Hulk Hogan, Macho Man, and John Cena are if that helps anyone in this thread. From my friends that (are fairly young 25-30, for comparison of people that are more in the culture) most only know Hogan, Macho Man, Cena, The Rock. A few "That luchador with the iconic mask"(Rey Mysterio). A COUPLE of then know Kenny Omega but thats because they love fighting games. In my experience, there is a shocking number of non-fans or extremely casual fans who know who Rey Mysterio is (or like you said something like "that kid in the mask from Monday Night Raw in the 90s"). There are some people who us wrestling fans think are legends who random people don't recognize, but they knew Rey. And it's been that way for years.
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Post by polarbearpete on Oct 14, 2022 12:54:42 GMT -5
Triple H should form a band with Garfunkel, Messina, Oates and Lisa. He's always runner up. He was runner up to Austin, HBK, Foley, Chyna, Taker, Rock, and then marrying the bosses' daughter. He's a damn fine wrestler and by all accounts seems like a great guy, but he's a runner up. I will disagree hard with he seems like a great guy. Also he was the definition of B+ Player, a solid wrestler, he wasnt boring,could talk fairly well, but he also had nothing special,he didnt sell crazy amount of merch nor draw crazy numbers nor could you argue that (as a wrestler) he was influential. As an exec and talent there may be some questionable situations with Triple H (Velveteen issues, politicking as a talent), but as a person, he’s always seemed fine from my perspective. I also think it’s a stretch to say he was “nothing special” as a talent. His presentation/aura since 1999 has been top level, he’s had tons of classic matches both in his younger years and more recent years,, his in-ring was tremendous during the Attitude Era, his promos are upper echelon (with the caveat that he sometimes was overexposed opening up Raw with 20 minute promos).
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Oct 14, 2022 13:09:22 GMT -5
I will disagree hard with he seems like a great guy. Also he was the definition of B+ Player, a solid wrestler, he wasnt boring,could talk fairly well, but he also had nothing special,he didnt sell crazy amount of merch nor draw crazy numbers nor could you argue that (as a wrestler) he was influential. As an exec and talent there may be some questionable situations with Triple H (Velveteen issues, politicking as a talent), but as a person, he’s always seemed fine from my perspective. I also think it’s a stretch to say he was “nothing special” as a talent. His presentation/aura since 1999 has been top level, he’s had tons of classic matches both in his younger years and more recent years,, his in-ring was tremendous during the Attitude Era, his promos are upper echelon (with the caveat that he sometimes was overexposed opening up Raw with 20 minute promos). Dude also got an insane pop at MSG when he returned from his quad injury. So it's not like he was never popular.
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Post by polarbearpete on Oct 14, 2022 13:16:46 GMT -5
As an exec and talent there may be some questionable situations with Triple H (Velveteen issues, politicking as a talent), but as a person, he’s always seemed fine from my perspective. I also think it’s a stretch to say he was “nothing special” as a talent. His presentation/aura since 1999 has been top level, he’s had tons of classic matches both in his younger years and more recent years,, his in-ring was tremendous during the Attitude Era, his promos are upper echelon (with the caveat that he sometimes was overexposed opening up Raw with 20 minute promos). Dude also got an insane pop at MSG when he returned from his quad injury. So it's not like he was never popular. Yes I was there for that and it was the loudest and longest ovation I’d ever heard. And he’s always gotten big pops when he returned as a legend in later years as well. If you talk to lapsed Attitude Era fans, they’ll usually be big fans of Triple H as well.
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Post by Jindrak Mark on Oct 14, 2022 13:19:24 GMT -5
From my friends that (are fairly young 25-30, for comparison of people that are more in the culture) most only know Hogan, Macho Man, Cena, The Rock. A few "That luchador with the iconic mask"(Rey Mysterio). A COUPLE of then know Kenny Omega but thats because they love fighting games. In my experience, there is a shocking number of non-fans or extremely casual fans who know who Rey Mysterio is (or like you said something like "that kid in the mask from Monday Night Raw in the 90s"). There are some people who us wrestling fans think are legends who random people don't recognize, but they knew Rey. And it's been that way for years. Stone Cold is one who I don't think is as known to outsiders as wrestling fans think. Arguably the most popular wrestler ever in his prime but in 2022 I don't think many random people on the street would know him. In my experience Undertaker is more well known despite never at any point being the top guy in the company. In general the big Hulkamania era stars like Hogan/Macho/Warrior/Andre/Taker seem to have been ingrained into long-term pop culture lore in a way the attitude stars aren't (other than Rock obviously).
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