Totorob101
Hank Scorpio
Glob Glob Glob
Posts: 5,593
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Post by Totorob101 on Apr 12, 2023 18:34:09 GMT -5
Wrestling is far better in ring then now then it ever was then and Bret probably envies the fact he could never do what a lot of guys and girls can do in the ring. As good as Bret was, his in ring style seems so wooden in comparison to todays workers.
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Post by evilone on Apr 12, 2023 18:34:43 GMT -5
Wrestling needs more real life drama aka worked shoots so people don't know what to expect when guys get in the ring to work a match. Only then can you get people to question themselves was he too stiff? was that chop real? are they hurting each other and so on.
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Post by Lance Uppercut on Apr 12, 2023 22:53:58 GMT -5
It's almost like 2023 is a different world than the 1970s Shocked Pikachu face By the way Bret (and JR) why don't you f***ing try ballet if it's such a wussy thing to do, you wouldn't last a day I forgot who it was, but I think it’s taz, who stopped himself on commentary to say “not to say that ballet is easy. It’s very tough on the body.” I have a lot of female friends who were dance majors and their legs and hips all kinds of messed from years of ballet
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tafkaga
Samurai Cop
the Dogfather
Posts: 2,124
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Post by tafkaga on Apr 13, 2023 8:05:06 GMT -5
So, I'm not 100% in disagreement with the Bret pile-on, because there's some ridiculousness there, but I do think we should not straw man him.
1) He's not saying the wrestling business can somehow stuff the cat back in the bag and re-convince the audience that it's a legit contact sport. 2) He's not saying that ballet is easy.
Bret's just saying that wrestling was better when it prioritized logic and tried to protect the ILLUSION that there was a contest going on. The ballet comparison comes from wrestling looking more (to Bret) like a choreographed dance than a contest.
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Post by James Fabiano on Apr 13, 2023 8:18:58 GMT -5
Least Bret hasn't started making comments about the Japanese wrestlers in the same way that Cornette does. My only real issue with what Bret said there is about ''pretend to be real'' thing because that horse bolted years, well decades ago now, ago. JC was trying to defend himself by saying he only hates Japanese wrestlers if they're bad wrestlers. Or something like that. Bobby Heenan is one veteran who had it right in accepting that things changed...though he could be pessimistic about it (pro wrestling is "over/dead" because everyone knows how they do everything).
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Allie Kitsune
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Always Feelin' Foxy.
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Posts: 46,162
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Apr 13, 2023 8:38:16 GMT -5
So, I'm not 100% in disagreement with the Bret pile-on, because there's some ridiculousness there, but I do think we should not straw man him. 1) He's not saying the wrestling business can somehow stuff the cat back in the bag and re-convince the audience that it's a legit contact sport. 2) He's not saying that ballet is easy. Bret's just saying that wrestling was better when it prioritized logic and tried to protect the ILLUSION that there was a contest going on. The ballet comparison comes from wrestling looking more (to Bret) like a choreographed dance than a contest. For some reason, all disagreements immediately escalate into "F*** THIS GUY FOREVER, HOW DARE HE?" territory, and it just isn't necessary. At least not when it comes to things like this.
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john84
Fry's dog Seymour
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Posts: 23,957
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Post by john84 on Apr 13, 2023 11:13:28 GMT -5
I don't have a ''f*** this guy'' attitude over Bret over this. I just disagree with him.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Apr 13, 2023 11:17:12 GMT -5
So, I'm not 100% in disagreement with the Bret pile-on, because there's some ridiculousness there, but I do think we should not straw man him. 1) He's not saying the wrestling business can somehow stuff the cat back in the bag and re-convince the audience that it's a legit contact sport. 2) He's not saying that ballet is easy. Bret's just saying that wrestling was better when it prioritized logic and tried to protect the ILLUSION that there was a contest going on. The ballet comparison comes from wrestling looking more (to Bret) like a choreographed dance than a contest. He's not the only one to say that and there's people more recent. Paul London of all people hates a lot of the current product and thinks it doesn't make sense. I think Bret is ironically a lot like FTR bald in that when you read what is said, it reads horribly, but when you actually hear the clip in context and what is being discussed? It's a solid point
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2023 11:29:45 GMT -5
Wrestling is far better in ring then now then it ever was then and Bret probably envies the fact he could never do what a lot of guys and girls can do in the ring. As good as Bret was, his in ring style seems so wooden in comparison to todays workers. I doubt it. Personal preferences aside, the guy could work with anyone. He can point to great matches with wrestlers of all shapes and sizes, styles and experience levels. He was tremendous and brought a ton of realism to his work. Does that mean people have to agree with him? Not at all but I think people should respect his viewpoint. Saying he's jealous is a bit of a stretch, especially since he had to stop medically. Guy has had concussions, strokes, family tragedies, and a fan attack him. No need to say he envies other workers.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Apr 13, 2023 11:45:11 GMT -5
Wrestling is far better in ring then now then it ever was then and Bret probably envies the fact he could never do what a lot of guys and girls can do in the ring. As good as Bret was, his in ring style seems so wooden in comparison to todays workers. I doubt it. Personal preferences aside, the guy could work with anyone. He can point to great matches with wrestlers of all shapes and sizes, styles and experience levels. He was tremendous and brought a ton of realism to his work. Does that mean people have to agree with him? Not at all but I think people should respect his viewpoint. Saying he's jealous is a bit of a stretch, especially since he had to stop medically. Guy has had concussions, strokes, family tragedies, and a fan attack him. No need to say he envies other workers. Bret was definitely good at working with a variety of people. I actually think his matches with Diesel were probably ones I like watching more than his Shawn matches, since yes, him and Shawn were just two guys at the top of their game, but Bret was able to harness the contrast he had with Diesel physically to make it more compelling, similarly to Undertaker and Yokozuna as opponents. Bret seemed to approach certain matches like he was trying to solve the puzzle that was his opponent, and that was good stuff.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2023 12:16:07 GMT -5
Every generation of wrestling has spots that are absolutely stupid horseshit that completely kill kayfabe to anyone that's over the age of 9.
Bret's generation had dumbass spots like:
-Back rakes. So, so, so many back rakes. I know Mox does them still, but I stand by them looking stupid.
-Atomic drops
-10 punches in the corner
etc.
And he wants to talk REALISM? Dude, you wrestled a Zombie Mortician Cowboy, a Tax Man, a dentist, and probably the rest of The Village People, too. GTFO with worrying too much about that. I love you and appreciate you and all you've done and you and Taker were my guys when I was a kid, but c'mon man, at some point you have to let kayfabe go.
One thing I'll grant him is that I hate the Lucha spot where everyone's all gathered around in one place for whatever reason to catch the dude diving from the outside. That's why I like Darby Allin's "I'm literally going to throw myself at you, so better focus on bracing yourself instead of trying to catch me" dive.
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Post by Fake Jesus on Apr 13, 2023 12:33:19 GMT -5
Bret is correct. Modern american wrestling has stopped presenting itself as taking place in a universe where wrestling is real. Thigh slapping no one actually notices, so that's irrelevant. People can say oh, Bret wrestled a f***ing witch doctor or something but that era of WWF entirely presented itself as a cartoon world and The Undertaker or whomever was real within the context of that world. New Japan still seems to present wrestling as real (to a fault sometimes with actual sport logic) and AEW occasionally manages to slip into a higher level of mimesis but not terribly often.
If anyone was to analyze this as Roland Barthes did wrestling in the fifties, modern wrestling went full Brechtian - to remind the audience that they are watching a performance - in the late 90s and has been unable to fully re-fictonalize itself since. A solid 45% of the audience is more invested in backstage bullshit than the narratives presented. Wrestling doesn't seem real because it isn't fake enough.
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Post by Hit Girl on Apr 13, 2023 13:57:32 GMT -5
I agree with him, but my preferred type of wrestling is gone and isn't coming back. I accepted that ages ago.
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Post by Milkman Norm on Apr 13, 2023 14:29:02 GMT -5
I can just imagine Ed Whalen calling modern wrestling.
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Fundertaker
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Post by Fundertaker on Apr 13, 2023 14:41:05 GMT -5
I remember OSW Reviews saying that Bret's best promos are when his character had something to whine about, and speculated that was a bit of his actual personality. Yeah, yeah it is. I believe the expression they used was "having a moan". So yes, absolutely spot on, can of coke to yas.
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Post by Instant Classic on Apr 13, 2023 15:53:14 GMT -5
WWE pre 98 is just so boring to watch to me. I’d much watch today any time if the week.
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Post by government mule on Apr 13, 2023 17:29:29 GMT -5
Inverted atomic drop, Russian legsweep, Backbreaker, Elbowdrop from the second rope, Sharpshooter.
I love me some Bret, but if people could suspend disbelief that he would go to that well every time on some New-Gen jobber, then I'm sure they'll be OK with stuff now.
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Post by Ishmeal Loves Kaseyhausen on Apr 13, 2023 19:16:50 GMT -5
Cool. So don't watch it.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Apr 13, 2023 19:33:41 GMT -5
Bret is correct. Modern american wrestling has stopped presenting itself as taking place in a universe where wrestling is real. Thigh slapping no one actually notices, so that's irrelevant. People can say oh, Bret wrestled a f***ing witch doctor or something but that era of WWF entirely presented itself as a cartoon world and The Undertaker or whomever was real within the context of that world. New Japan still seems to present wrestling as real (to a fault sometimes with actual sport logic) and AEW occasionally manages to slip into a higher level of mimesis but not terribly often. If anyone was to analyze this as Roland Barthes did wrestling in the fifties, modern wrestling went full Brechtian - to remind the audience that they are watching a performance - in the late 90s and has been unable to fully re-fictonalize itself since. A solid 45% of the audience is more invested in backstage bullshit than the narratives presented. Wrestling doesn't seem real because it isn't fake enough. Who was that person who actually did a whole blog about that concept?
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Apr 13, 2023 19:37:39 GMT -5
"I just think the old kind of wrestling is sorely missed by a lot of people. It's like, you know, if the old wrestling was around, like my dad's wrestling, we'd come see it kind of thing."
This is always where the crux of the old man cloud-yelling falls and it's always so wrong. The world has moved on from what was popular decades ago, and the people who grew up in that world and most fondly remember that style of wrestling are getting older. Bret's 65 talking about Stampede like if Stampede came back then people would be going to see it on that local territory level again. Cornette thinks it, too; it's a particular piece of delusison that gets buried under his bluster and bigotry, but it's the same fundamental issue. The idea that they grew up with it and in this world, and wrestling is no longer like that, no longer as big, but if only we did things back how they were forty or fifty years ago, wrestling would be there again. It's as deluded old man as you get, because that's not happening. No wrestling is getting people to do that again.
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