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Post by eJm on May 30, 2023 10:20:10 GMT -5
Jade essentially keeping the belt warm for Statlander for months shows that he does not know how to do Plan B. My counterpoint to that would be the moment Saraya was being booed on a consistent basis, she was turned heel and formed a faction with Toni Storm, also someone who was booed compared to Hayter and Baker. And yeah, we wouldn’t have a long running thread about said group if it was 100% perfect but I’d consider that a Plan B. And again, that’s why TK’s such a weird booker to me. He can do that but he can’t have Jade lose to a Red Velvet or someone with a bit more of a rivalry than others? EDIT: And hey, you could argue he’s loyal to the idea and that’s sort of commendable in the world of bookers but you even could have had Jade regain the belt somehow and do the same scenario without padding.
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Post by kingoftheindies on May 30, 2023 10:28:44 GMT -5
Also for the record, a small crowd doesn't equal a bad crowd. Laredo sold poorly, AEW booked a B show in response, but the crowd was loud and into everything.I've seen sold out crowds be pretty bad as well and just sit on their hands.
I just think certain things this PPV cycle didn't hit while some stuff did. Said in other threads I think the Pillars feud showed just how far Sammy and JB are from being title contenders. While people got into the tag title match I think people are done with Jarrett and Lethal in title pictures. While I don't agree with some criticisms of the Outcasts I do think that angle has been a bit too start stop and was more stop recently with Jayme hurt
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2023 10:32:40 GMT -5
TK seems to me like alot of other creative in wrestling all their best ideas and efforts are geared toward the obvious stars but then that preverbial brilliance suddenly is non exsistent for the mid to lower tier guys and gals.
He is very good at pivoting when he has to but he has a high inconsistent rate as far as maintaining a level of quality across the board.
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Post by Gerard Gerard on May 30, 2023 10:42:12 GMT -5
The roster is absurdly bloated and the even super engaging stuff like Swerve/Lee gets lost in the shuffle as there’s simply too much to juggle on a week-to-week basis. I’d say the split might alleviate this somewhat but can’t help but feel like it’s just going to be an excuse to further pad the ranks.
It can get frustrating as a weekly watcher, is all.
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Post by kingoftheindies on May 30, 2023 10:47:40 GMT -5
TK seems to me like alot of other creative in wrestling all their best ideas and efforts are geared toward the obvious stars but then that preverbial brilliance suddenly is non exsistent for the mid to lower tier guys and gals. He is very good at pivoting when he has to but he has a high inconsistent rate as far as maintaining a level of quality across the board. Many wrestlers have said that if you have ideas, you are given priority by pretty much everyone involved with creative. It was something that got lost in the Big Swole interview after she left (understandably) was that people would approach her asking what she wanted to do creatively and she was uncomfortable coming up with ideas so she'd have to wait for an idea to be pitched to her. Janela has said in interviews that because he was always pitching ideas Tony would listen, but many of his ideas they wanted to see on Dark first because Joey's ideas were out there. PillEan Jr even said in a podcast that he and Griff were asked to pitch ideas when AEW started touring again because they wanted to give the Varsity Blondes a push and they froze. Heck I've heard interviews with people like Mox and Danielson who are involved as coaches and in creative and both have flat out said they're really only interested in people who want to put the extra work in. The people they've highlighted? Starks, Darby, Powerhouse, Wardlow, The Acclaimed, Jade, Tay, Anna, Britt, the Gunns. All acts that may not always be pushed but tend to be featured a lot. All people who want to learn more but are also always pitching ideas.
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lucas_lee
Hank Scorpio
Heel turn is finished, now stripping away my personality
Posts: 6,756
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Post by lucas_lee on May 30, 2023 10:54:58 GMT -5
TK seems to me like alot of other creative in wrestling all their best ideas and efforts are geared toward the obvious stars but then that preverbial brilliance suddenly is non exsistent for the mid to lower tier guys and gals. He is very good at pivoting when he has to but he has a high inconsistent rate as far as maintaining a level of quality across the board. Many wrestlers have said that if you have ideas, you are given priority by pretty much everyone involved with creative. It was something that got lost in the Big Swole interview after she left (understandably) was that people would approach her asking what she wanted to do creatively and she was uncomfortable coming up with ideas so she'd have to wait for an idea to be pitched to her. Janela has said in interviews that because he was always pitching ideas Tony would listen, but many of his ideas they wanted to see on Dark first because Joey's ideas were out there. PillEan Jr even said in a podcast that he and Griff were asked to pitch ideas when AEW started touring again because they wanted to give the Varsity Blondes a push and they froze. Heck I've heard interviews with people like Mox and Danielson who are involved as coaches and in creative and both have flat out said they're really only interested in people who want to put the extra work in. The people they've highlighted? Starks, Darby, Powerhouse, Wardlow, The Acclaimed, Jade, Tay, Anna, Britt, the Gunns. All acts that may not always be pushed but tend to be featured a lot. All people who want to learn more but are also always pitching ideas. I'm not a fan of that attitude TBH not everyone can come up with ideas on their feet like that and you can potentially lose out on great talent with that attitude as well.
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Post by eJm on May 30, 2023 11:00:29 GMT -5
TK seems to me like alot of other creative in wrestling all their best ideas and efforts are geared toward the obvious stars but then that preverbial brilliance suddenly is non exsistent for the mid to lower tier guys and gals. He is very good at pivoting when he has to but he has a high inconsistent rate as far as maintaining a level of quality across the board. Many wrestlers have said that if you have ideas, you are given priority by pretty much everyone involved with creative. It was something that got lost in the Big Swole interview after she left (understandably) was that people would approach her asking what she wanted to do creatively and she was uncomfortable coming up with ideas so she'd have to wait for an idea to be pitched to her. Janela has said in interviews that because he was always pitching ideas Tony would listen, but many of his ideas they wanted to see on Dark first because Joey's ideas were out there. PillEan Jr even said in a podcast that he and Griff were asked to pitch ideas when AEW started touring again because they wanted to give the Varsity Blondes a push and they froze. Heck I've heard interviews with people like Mox and Danielson who are involved as coaches and in creative and both have flat out said they're really only interested in people who want to put the extra work in. The people they've highlighted? Starks, Darby, Powerhouse, Wardlow, The Acclaimed, Jade, Tay, Anna, Britt, the Gunns. All acts that may not always be pushed but tend to be featured a lot. All people who want to learn more but are also always pitching ideas. Jack Evans is also someone who was open about this stuff during the pandemic era when he and Angelico weren’t really used to pitching ideas and establishing themselves as characters and said it was on them rather than creative because others were putting their ideas through. And none of this is new info, nor is it something that is new for wrestling. One of the only things Vince Russo is praised for is trying to get something from people who want to try ideas out and establish a character. If you can’t do that, you’re not going to last. Now most of those ideas weren’t good or made people bitter that they only had so much of a ceiling (Al Snow and Val Venis came to mind) but time is limited for a show like this and when you’re coming up with ideas, you need to be able to know what your character is and what you want to do with it or at least have the ability to try new things and tweaks. If Athena didn’t come up with her character, who knows where she’d be right now because she sure as hell wouldn’t be ROH Women's Champion right now. I’m not going to get into the roster bloat argument because none of it is as simple as people claim it is (Bandido has a wrestling promotion, he’ll leave sometimes to run it for example) and my arguments aren’t as simple because something better might come along and make more sense but that’s also not to say there aren’t flaws (Swerve/Lee is a good example but we also have to take into account Keith Lee likely has long COVID and might still not be 100% to do what he once did so a singles match might not work right now). Again, I’m rambling so apologies.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2023 11:05:07 GMT -5
TK seems to me like alot of other creative in wrestling all their best ideas and efforts are geared toward the obvious stars but then that preverbial brilliance suddenly is non exsistent for the mid to lower tier guys and gals. He is very good at pivoting when he has to but he has a high inconsistent rate as far as maintaining a level of quality across the board. Many wrestlers have said that if you have ideas, you are given priority by pretty much everyone involved with creative. It was something that got lost in the Big Swole interview after she left (understandably) was that people would approach her asking what she wanted to do creatively and she was uncomfortable coming up with ideas so she'd have to wait for an idea to be pitched to her. Janela has said in interviews that because he was always pitching ideas Tony would listen, but many of his ideas they wanted to see on Dark first because Joey's ideas were out there. PillEan Jr even said in a podcast that he and Griff were asked to pitch ideas when AEW started touring again because they wanted to give the Varsity Blondes a push and they froze. Heck I've heard interviews with people like Mox and Danielson who are involved as coaches and in creative and both have flat out said they're really only interested in people who want to put the extra work in. The people they've highlighted? Starks, Darby, Powerhouse, Wardlow, The Acclaimed, Jade, Tay, Anna, Britt, the Gunns. All acts that may not always be pushed but tend to be featured a lot. All people who want to learn more but are also always pitching ideas. That seems like a pretty bad attitude to have creatively IMO...like what is extra work to them? what might mean something to mox might mean differently to Danielson. Like if someone does not show up to the arena 3hrs early do they dub this person lazy? or not wanting it hard enough. This is a very easy way to piss off and or just end up demoralizing the talent.
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Post by kingoftheindies on May 30, 2023 11:05:59 GMT -5
Many wrestlers have said that if you have ideas, you are given priority by pretty much everyone involved with creative. It was something that got lost in the Big Swole interview after she left (understandably) was that people would approach her asking what she wanted to do creatively and she was uncomfortable coming up with ideas so she'd have to wait for an idea to be pitched to her. Janela has said in interviews that because he was always pitching ideas Tony would listen, but many of his ideas they wanted to see on Dark first because Joey's ideas were out there. PillEan Jr even said in a podcast that he and Griff were asked to pitch ideas when AEW started touring again because they wanted to give the Varsity Blondes a push and they froze. Heck I've heard interviews with people like Mox and Danielson who are involved as coaches and in creative and both have flat out said they're really only interested in people who want to put the extra work in. The people they've highlighted? Starks, Darby, Powerhouse, Wardlow, The Acclaimed, Jade, Tay, Anna, Britt, the Gunns. All acts that may not always be pushed but tend to be featured a lot. All people who want to learn more but are also always pitching ideas. I'm not a fan of that attitude TBH not everyone can come up with ideas on their feet like that and you can potentially lose out on great talent with that attitude as well. THere are pros and cons to it for sure was just pointing out that yes AEW does cater to those who are creative.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2023 11:08:17 GMT -5
I know in LU it was a complete collaborative effort not just between talent and creative but also the wrestlers themselves...I always go back to Marty and Killshot/Swerve where the creative wanted to end their feud at Ultima Lucha Dos but both Marty and Killshot fought to end it the way they wanted and so creative listened and gave them exactly that and out came the amazing weapons of mass destruction match.
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Post by kingoftheindies on May 30, 2023 11:09:25 GMT -5
Many wrestlers have said that if you have ideas, you are given priority by pretty much everyone involved with creative. It was something that got lost in the Big Swole interview after she left (understandably) was that people would approach her asking what she wanted to do creatively and she was uncomfortable coming up with ideas so she'd have to wait for an idea to be pitched to her. Janela has said in interviews that because he was always pitching ideas Tony would listen, but many of his ideas they wanted to see on Dark first because Joey's ideas were out there. PillEan Jr even said in a podcast that he and Griff were asked to pitch ideas when AEW started touring again because they wanted to give the Varsity Blondes a push and they froze. Heck I've heard interviews with people like Mox and Danielson who are involved as coaches and in creative and both have flat out said they're really only interested in people who want to put the extra work in. The people they've highlighted? Starks, Darby, Powerhouse, Wardlow, The Acclaimed, Jade, Tay, Anna, Britt, the Gunns. All acts that may not always be pushed but tend to be featured a lot. All people who want to learn more but are also always pitching ideas. That seems like a pretty bad attitude to have creatively IMO...like what is extra work to them? what might mean something to mox might mean differently to Danielson. Like if someone does not show up to the arena 3hrs early do they dub this person lazy? or not wanting it hard enough. This is a very easy way to piss off and or just end up demoralizing the talent. again pros and cons. I also don't think it's clearly a one size fits all. But the consistent thing has been if you pitch ideas to Tony he will listen and will give you the chance to show those ideas even if just on dark at first. I think this is where the argument that you need more people in creative which we have slowly gotten to.
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AdamAFL was sooooo wrong
Hank Scorpio
note to all: he's a pants-less heathen
I Survived The Impact Spoilers 7/22/15-7/30/15
Posts: 7,097
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Post by AdamAFL was sooooo wrong on May 30, 2023 11:10:29 GMT -5
I honestly sometimes feel like I’m watching a different show to everyone else. I was where the OP is now between All Out and Full Gear last year. I felt the show was lifeless, directionless and honestly a bit of a slog to get through most weeks. But ever since Full Gear I honestly think the shows have been phenomenal. Probs my favourite run in company history. DoN wasn’t as great as most AEW PPVs but I still thought it was really good and booking wise I think they got everything right personally. Wrestling is subjective but I’m just surprised how far I seen to be from the general sentiment of FAN regarding this.
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markymark
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 18,516
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Post by markymark on May 30, 2023 11:12:39 GMT -5
TK seems to me like alot of other creative in wrestling all their best ideas and efforts are geared toward the obvious stars but then that preverbial brilliance suddenly is non exsistent for the mid to lower tier guys and gals. He is very good at pivoting when he has to but he has a high inconsistent rate as far as maintaining a level of quality across the board. Many wrestlers have said that if you have ideas, you are given priority by pretty much everyone involved with creative. It was something that got lost in the Big Swole interview after she left (understandably) was that people would approach her asking what she wanted to do creatively and she was uncomfortable coming up with ideas so she'd have to wait for an idea to be pitched to her. Janela has said in interviews that because he was always pitching ideas Tony would listen, but many of his ideas they wanted to see on Dark first because Joey's ideas were out there. PillEan Jr even said in a podcast that he and Griff were asked to pitch ideas when AEW started touring again because they wanted to give the Varsity Blondes a push and they froze.Heck I've heard interviews with people like Mox and Danielson who are involved as coaches and in creative and both have flat out said they're really only interested in people who want to put the extra work in. The people they've highlighted? Starks, Darby, Powerhouse, Wardlow, The Acclaimed, Jade, Tay, Anna, Britt, the Gunns. All acts that may not always be pushed but tend to be featured a lot. All people who want to learn more but are also always pitching ideas.
But that was all on Pillman jr for constantly dropping the ball that Julia was like fk this and went to join HoB lol
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Push R Truth
Patti Mayonnaise
Unique and Special Snowflake, and a pants-less heathen.
Perpetually Constipated
Posts: 39,309
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Post by Push R Truth on May 30, 2023 11:14:04 GMT -5
If you want more Jungle Boy AEW Title reigns, CM Punk putting over younger full-time talent and AEW's answer to WeeLC... you can PM me with your job offer, Tony.
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Post by eJm on May 30, 2023 11:18:45 GMT -5
That seems like a pretty bad attitude to have creatively IMO...like what is extra work to them? what might mean something to mox might mean differently to Danielson. Like if someone does not show up to the arena 3hrs early do they dub this person lazy? or not wanting it hard enough. This is a very easy way to piss off and or just end up demoralizing the talent. He didn’t say an example of what makes people annoyed at them so the 3 hour example is weird, especially when you work a job where you’re supposed to be at a place at a certain time (which you’d hope to be because AEW pays for travel). I’ll say this as someone who trained and been around wrestlers, the thing that separates someone who wants to have a bit more audience connection than another (outside of being able to do the fundamentals very well etc) is knowing the kind of wrestler and character you want to be. The reason, say, Session Moth Martina is a big star as she is across Europe and had so much longevity isn’t just because she works well with people and works hard but because you know who she is fundamentally and can work around the style of match she has. That’s why you can put her in Japan and it’d work or put her on ROH, pre-pandemic, and it’d work because she’s different from everyone else and you can build stories from her. I’m not saying it’s an easy thing to do but it can be easy to see the attitude as “There’s this great talent, put them against that great talent and see how it goes” and it can work but sometimes you need that little bit of push from how you wrestle to make that work and connect. To a promoter, that’s the difference between having Darby Allin face Samoa Joe and building a feud between those two characters and two people just wrestling and being good.
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Post by eJm on May 30, 2023 11:24:29 GMT -5
I honestly sometimes feel like I’m watching a different show to everyone else. I was where the OP is now between All Out and Full Gear last year. I felt the show was lifeless, directionless and honestly a bit of a slog to get through most weeks. But ever since Full Gear I honestly think the shows have been phenomenal. Probs my favourite run in company history. DoN wasn’t as great as most AEW PPVs but I still thought it was really good and booking wise I think they got everything right personally. Wrestling is subjective but I’m just surprised how far I seen to be from the general sentiment of FAN regarding this. I feel like this needs to be stressed a bit. A lot of ideas TK and the other members of creative had for post-All Out died the moment Punk hit Matt Jackson with a chair and Ace Steel bit Kenny Omega. The Firm lost practically all their teeth, the trios tag titles had to get a bit of a reboot after just starting up, MJF’s crowning had to wait a few more months, the Danielson/Moxley tag team was scrapped, it was a time where things need to be chopped and changed and made work and it felt like now we’re coming towards the end of that period of uncertainty with things falling more in place.
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Ben Wyatt
Crow T. Robot
Are You Gonna Go My Way?
I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
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Post by Ben Wyatt on May 30, 2023 11:26:39 GMT -5
Jade essentially keeping the belt warm for Statlander for months shows that he does not know how to do Plan B. Thing is, while everyone and their mother *KNEW* Statlander was going to be the one to dethrone Jade, they could have at least made some type of effort to make fans at least consider that it could be someone else. Every Jade match had the feeling of a late 80's match on Superstars or Challenge where you'd see Koko B Ware vs Randy Savage. Match might be fun, but even the markiest of marks knew that KoKo was eating a flying elbow
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kidkamikaze10
Dennis Stamp
Trying to think of a new avatar
Posts: 4,286
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Post by kidkamikaze10 on May 30, 2023 11:31:16 GMT -5
To me, I think a refresh on who is prominent on the shows is in order.
I know people don't like the cycling of people because it takes some wrestler's heat, but there's no good reason Swerve is still stuck in the undercard right now while less developed and less talented people are consistently on screen.
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pinja
Unicron
Posts: 3,023
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Post by pinja on May 30, 2023 11:37:57 GMT -5
If wrestlers pitch their own ideas, let them watch and understand good wrestling, let them watch movies and tv shows, show them what a book is and what wonderous things you can do with it. I think part of the problem is that wrestlers in AEW have freedom but no idea about how a story works.
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Post by 01010010 01101001 01100011 on May 30, 2023 11:39:33 GMT -5
I'd love to see them adopt the old Memphis thing where the booking rotated every so often so the person booking could get a break and refresh, maybe someone new would hit big as well. TK would still have final say of course but it would keep freshness in things hopefully.
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