Nosnorb
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Post by Nosnorb on Oct 12, 2023 5:05:28 GMT -5
Since it’s just Juice’s normal of choice, and an old school move aew used a couple of times, I wouldn’t have made any connection to Juice Robinson being all anti semetic unless he started throwing coins at him and calling Jew boy I can't recall anyone else in AEW calling MJF by his last name though, which is a common Ashkenazi Jewish surname and which Juice wrote on the roll.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Oct 12, 2023 5:22:46 GMT -5
Since it’s just Juice’s normal of choice, and an old school move aew used a couple of times, I wouldn’t have made any connection to Juice Robinson being all anti semetic unless he started throwing coins at him and calling Jew boy I can't recall anyone else in AEW calling MJF by his last name though, which is a common Ashkenazi Jewish surname and which Juice wrote on the roll. I think Juice has been screaming "FRIEDMAN!" for weeks, so he was calling him by his last name well before this, he has his own way of calling people stuff, the entire Starks feud was just "RICKAAAAAY!!" I don't know if anyone else has straight up called him by his last name, but it didn't seem from any aspect he was trying to highlight MJF's Jewishness, it was just Juice being his usual self I don't know if that correlates to him writing "FRIEDMAN" on the roll of quarters, but given that's what'd he'd been screaming prior, it made sense. But optics wise, obviously, it sent wrong signals.
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Post by Denny Zen is Cooking™ on Oct 12, 2023 7:51:01 GMT -5
It’s a major, and disingenuous, stretch. I’ve said it a couple of times in this thread already, but I feel like trivializing what’s currently happening in the Middle East by implying that this pro wrestling angle about MJF standing up to antisemitic bullying was in any way evocative of it is far more offensive than the angle itself. No, it's not more f***ing offensive to notice the very clear link to the escalation of atrocities going on in the world with a wrestling angle that is playing on anti-Semitic tropes in the very same week. It's very f***ing offensive to suggest people are being disingenuous about how uncomfortable they are with this being played out on TV. Why would they do that? Because they hate Tony Khan or AEW? Give me a break. I don’t want to talk in circles about an issue that is already towing this board’s rules, so throw all the f bombs at me you want to punctuate your point, but I extremely vehemently disagree with you. There’s a difference between noticing a clear link between a pro wrestling company’s storyline involving antisemitism against its Jewish world champion whose Jewish identity and history with antisemitic bullying is a major established component of his on-screen character, and outright accusing said pro wrestling company of attempting to evoke acts of war committed by Hamas to garner cheap heel heat with said storyline. The latter trivializes what’s currently going on in the Middle East and the incredibly complicated sociopolitical issues at play that have led to said issues. And it is FAR more offensive to me than the angle itself.
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Post by Denny Zen is Cooking™ on Oct 12, 2023 8:21:29 GMT -5
I can't recall anyone else in AEW calling MJF by his last name though, which is a common Ashkenazi Jewish surname and which Juice wrote on the roll. I think Juice has been screaming "FRIEDMAN!" for weeks, so he was calling him by his last name well before this, he has his own way of calling people stuff, the entire Starks feud was just "RICKAAAAAY!!" I don't know if anyone else has straight up called him by his last name, but it didn't seem from any aspect he was trying to highlight MJF's Jewishness, it was just Juice being his usual self I don't know if that correlates to him writing "FRIEDMAN" on the roll of quarters, but given that's what'd he'd been screaming prior, it made sense. But optics wise, obviously, it sent wrong signals. I think that the angle was very clearly designed to be a callback to MJF’s experiences with antisemitic bullying, particularly given commentary’s acknowledgement after the angle and MJF’s own statements on social media afterwards, including the announcement that he’s going to be speaking for Stand Up to Jewish Hate this afternoon. I just think it’s about 25 bridges too far to try and imply that AEW greenlighting this angle that had already been a part of MJF’s character for weeks, and which was very clearly his own idea and done for the purpose of trying to draw attention to the prevalence of antisemitic bullying was a deliberate attempt to evoke Hamas committing an act of war on the State of Israel for the purpose of drawing heel heat. It was bad timing, and AEW should probably shelve it. But, frankly, on the other end of the spectrum I can see merit in the argument that MJF himself has been making on social media as to why he feels it’s important to tell this part of his story right now at this moment in history. I just, again, am not sure professional wrestling is the best medium for it. Time will tell.
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Post by polarbearpete on Oct 12, 2023 8:58:12 GMT -5
I think Juice has been screaming "FRIEDMAN!" for weeks, so he was calling him by his last name well before this, he has his own way of calling people stuff, the entire Starks feud was just "RICKAAAAAY!!" I don't know if anyone else has straight up called him by his last name, but it didn't seem from any aspect he was trying to highlight MJF's Jewishness, it was just Juice being his usual self I don't know if that correlates to him writing "FRIEDMAN" on the roll of quarters, but given that's what'd he'd been screaming prior, it made sense. But optics wise, obviously, it sent wrong signals. I think that the angle was very clearly designed to be a callback to MJF’s experiences with antisemitic bullying, particularly given commentary’s acknowledgement after the angle and MJF’s own statements on social media afterwards, including the announcement that he’s going to be speaking for Stand Up to Jewish Hate this afternoon. I just think it’s about 25 bridges too far to try and imply that AEW greenlighting this angle that had already been a part of MJF’s character for weeks, and which was very clearly his own idea and done for the purpose of trying to draw attention to the prevalence of antisemitic bullying was a deliberate attempt to evoke Hamas committing an act of war on the State of Israel for the purpose of drawing heel heat. It was bad timing, and AEW should probably shelve it. But, frankly, on the other end of the spectrum I can see merit in the argument that MJF himself has been making on social media as to why he feels it’s important to tell this part of his story right now at this moment in history. I just, again, am not sure professional wrestling is the best medium for it. Time will tell. If MJF is saying that’s it’s important to tell this story right now at this moment in history, then isn’t the implication that it may have been planned to be done this way by him right now because of what’s going on in the world? Why is that such a stretch that you’re taking offense to if those are MJF’s words about it?
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Post by Denny Zen is Cooking™ on Oct 12, 2023 9:24:38 GMT -5
I think that the angle was very clearly designed to be a callback to MJF’s experiences with antisemitic bullying, particularly given commentary’s acknowledgement after the angle and MJF’s own statements on social media afterwards, including the announcement that he’s going to be speaking for Stand Up to Jewish Hate this afternoon. I just think it’s about 25 bridges too far to try and imply that AEW greenlighting this angle that had already been a part of MJF’s character for weeks, and which was very clearly his own idea and done for the purpose of trying to draw attention to the prevalence of antisemitic bullying was a deliberate attempt to evoke Hamas committing an act of war on the State of Israel for the purpose of drawing heel heat. It was bad timing, and AEW should probably shelve it. But, frankly, on the other end of the spectrum I can see merit in the argument that MJF himself has been making on social media as to why he feels it’s important to tell this part of his story right now at this moment in history. I just, again, am not sure professional wrestling is the best medium for it. Time will tell. If MJF is saying that’s it’s important to tell this story right now at this moment in history, then isn’t the implication that it may have been planned to be done this way by him right now because of what’s going on in the world? Why is that such a stretch that you’re taking offense to if those are MJF’s words about it? I'm not taking offense to anyone who is uncomfortable with seeing a storyline with elements of antisemitism play out on a professional wrestling show, and I understand why antisemitism is a particularly sensitive subject right now. As I've said/implied throughout this thread, I view professional wrestling as a goofy form of escapism, and am not sure that it is, or has ever been, the best medium to try and provide commentary on complicated and nuanced global sociopolitical issues. I am taking offense to any notion that the angle on Tuesday was deliberately evocative of the Israel-Hamas War for the purpose of drawing heat. Antisemitic bullying experienced by a Long Islander in the United States and the longstanding religious, political, and territorial conflicts in the Levant are separate and distinct issues, and as I've said, I feel that it trivializes those issues to compare a silly and slightly tasteless "I'm going to punch you with some quarters" wrestling angle to the current culmination of a literal decades-long conflict. Sorry if I haven't articulated that well. I'm certainly not in the camp of people who are arguing that the angle wasn't deliberately intended to evoke antisemitism, and I'm not even trying to argue that the timing didn't exacerbate the negative reaction to it. But I absolutely take great exception to any notion of "AEW are a bunch of carnies for using current events for heel heat" because I don't believe that's what this was at all. This has been an aspect of MJF's babyface character from the very beginning.
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Post by The anti-ratings Luddite on Oct 12, 2023 9:31:19 GMT -5
I am NOT Jewish or of Jewish ancestry, so do not take this as me discounting how anyone that is may feel. End of the day, I'm just some dumb dude.
But Juice's gimmick is the whole "hand of God" shtick, and a roll of quarters as a fist pack is a wrestling trope going all the way back to Memphis. I wasn't getting any weirdness out of it at that part.
MJF's selling of it and freaking out is what made me go "... huh?" before putting two and two together, and THAT is what made me tug my collar a bit at the timing of it all.
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Post by polarbearpete on Oct 12, 2023 9:49:11 GMT -5
If MJF is saying that’s it’s important to tell this story right now at this moment in history, then isn’t the implication that it may have been planned to be done this way by him right now because of what’s going on in the world? Why is that such a stretch that you’re taking offense to if those are MJF’s words about it? I'm not taking offense to anyone who is uncomfortable with seeing a storyline with elements of antisemitism play out on a professional wrestling show, and I understand why antisemitism is a particularly sensitive subject right now. As I've said/implied throughout this thread, I view professional wrestling as a goofy form of escapism, and am not sure that it is, or has ever been, the best medium to try and provide commentary on complicated and nuanced global sociopolitical issues. I am taking offense to any notion that the angle on Tuesday was deliberately evocative of the Israel-Hamas War for the purpose of drawing heat. Antisemitic bullying experienced by a Long Islander in the United States and the longstanding religious, political, and territorial conflicts in the Levant are separate and distinct issues, and as I've said, I feel that it trivializes those issues to compare a silly and slightly tasteless "I'm going to punch you with some quarters" wrestling angle to the current culmination of a literal decades-long conflict. Sorry if I haven't articulated that well. I'm certainly not in the camp of people who are arguing that the angle wasn't deliberately intended to evoke antisemitism, and I'm not even trying to argue that the timing didn't exacerbate the negative reaction to it. But I absolutely take great exception to any notion of "AEW are a bunch of carnies for using current events for heel heat" because I don't believe that's what this was at all. This has been an aspect of MJF's babyface character from the very beginning. So if you’re saying it’s an angle deliberately intended to evoke antisemitism, and MJF is saying it’s an important time in history to do an angle such as this, then why is it a stretch to think that MJF chose to run the angle in this manner at this time because of the attacks being fresh in people’s minds and being extremely topical? I don’t think anyone is trying to equate a roll of quarters to what’s happening in the world right now. It’s the idea that MJF may have chosen to do the anti-semitism angle on that particular show because of the real world events going on. If that’s true, some people seem to have a problem with that, and some don’t.
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Post by Denny Zen is Cooking™ on Oct 12, 2023 10:18:23 GMT -5
I'm not taking offense to anyone who is uncomfortable with seeing a storyline with elements of antisemitism play out on a professional wrestling show, and I understand why antisemitism is a particularly sensitive subject right now. As I've said/implied throughout this thread, I view professional wrestling as a goofy form of escapism, and am not sure that it is, or has ever been, the best medium to try and provide commentary on complicated and nuanced global sociopolitical issues. I am taking offense to any notion that the angle on Tuesday was deliberately evocative of the Israel-Hamas War for the purpose of drawing heat. Antisemitic bullying experienced by a Long Islander in the United States and the longstanding religious, political, and territorial conflicts in the Levant are separate and distinct issues, and as I've said, I feel that it trivializes those issues to compare a silly and slightly tasteless "I'm going to punch you with some quarters" wrestling angle to the current culmination of a literal decades-long conflict. Sorry if I haven't articulated that well. I'm certainly not in the camp of people who are arguing that the angle wasn't deliberately intended to evoke antisemitism, and I'm not even trying to argue that the timing didn't exacerbate the negative reaction to it. But I absolutely take great exception to any notion of "AEW are a bunch of carnies for using current events for heel heat" because I don't believe that's what this was at all. This has been an aspect of MJF's babyface character from the very beginning. So if you’re saying it’s an angle deliberately intended to evoke antisemitism, and MJF is saying it’s an important time in history to do an angle such as this, then why is it a stretch to think that MJF chose to run the angle in this manner at this time because of the attacks being fresh in people’s minds and being extremely topical? I don’t think anyone is trying to equate a roll of quarters to what’s happening in the world right now. It’s the idea that MJF may have chosen to do the anti-semitism angle on that particular show because of the real world events going on. If that’s true, some people seem to have a problem with that, and some don’t. Maybe no one here is doing that (though this thread has been peppered with more than one "carnies gonna carn" type post), but it's incredibly prevalent on the wrestling internet as a whole right now. People are fully taking this opportunity to "dunk on" Tiny Con. MJF's entire babyface character is, and has always been, that he became withdrawn and abrasive because of pervasive antisemitic bullying that he experienced as a child. His face character is entirely predicated on coming to terms with the fact that people can, and do, love him for who he is and as he's grown as a babyface he's gradually become a stronger and stronger advocate for people who feel ostracized by society. It's been a part of his character for weeks, he speaks about his experiences with prejudice as a Jewish man on social media frequently, and he very clearly believes that he should use his platform as AEW champion to call attention to these issues that are incredibly important to him. I don't see how anyone who has been watching MJF's character arc, even onscreen and in kayfabe, over the last several months can possibly say that the angle was out of the blue or a deviation from the story that was already being told. I understand why, given world events, this angle being such an escalation of outright antisemitism towards MJF by another wrestler as opposed to nebulous childhood bullies may have felt a little on the nose. That's where I agree that it was clearly important to MJF to continue to highlight these issues, and do so more directly, due to what's going on with the world. What I vehemently disagree with is that any of this was in any way something that AEW did out of the blue to try and garner heel heat. And, I'm sorry, I'm not going to back down from my feeling that many of the people who are trying to draw direct parallels between what played out on Dynamite on Tuesday and Hamas declaring war on the State of Israel are offensively trivializing the Israel-Palestine conflict for the sake of criticizing a wrestling company they don't care for.
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Post by gentlemengreg1 on Oct 12, 2023 11:12:44 GMT -5
The most famous roll of quarters in Professional Wrestling history is when Larry Zbyszko standing outside the ring handed Curt Hennig a roll of quarters and Hennig, who was a young baby face at the time, nailed Nick Bockwinkel and became AWA World Champion which ended the dominance of Bockwinkel’s reigns over the AWA Championship.
Or at least I think it was a roll of quarters. Come to think of it now as I’m writing this post it might have been a roll of dimes.
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Post by Ronny Rayguns Is All Elite on Oct 12, 2023 11:29:26 GMT -5
The most famous roll of quarters in Professional Wrestling history is when Larry Zbyszko standing outside the ring handed Curt Hennig a roll of quarters and Hennig, who was a young baby face at the time, nailed Nick Bockwinkel and became AWA World Champion which ended the dominance of Bockwinkel’s reigns over the AWA Championship. Or at least I think it was a roll of quarters. Come to think of it now as I’m writing this post it might have been a roll of dimes. My favorite was on that Dark Side of the Ring Episode, Jake the Snake claimed he was planning on sucker punching the Ultimate Warrior with a roll of quarters backstage at the Hall of Fame ceremony before Warrior apologized to him.
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Post by mrpeacock on Oct 12, 2023 16:31:42 GMT -5
The most famous roll of quarters in Professional Wrestling history is when Larry Zbyszko standing outside the ring handed Curt Hennig a roll of quarters and Hennig, who was a young baby face at the time, nailed Nick Bockwinkel and became AWA World Champion which ended the dominance of Bockwinkel’s reigns over the AWA Championship. Or at least I think it was a roll of quarters. Come to think of it now as I’m writing this post it might have been a roll of dimes. I loved an angle they did with Roddy Piper stealing Jack Briscoes Mid Atlantic Heavyweight title. To get Piper to put the stolen belt on the line Briscoe and a few other babyfaces put together $10,000 in order to fulfill ransom money Piper demanded. The match happens and Piper wins a great match by Knocking out Briscoe with a roll of quarters. A $10 investment in a roll of quarters wins Piper $10,000 and the belt.
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Post by yokohamacpfc on Oct 13, 2023 2:58:02 GMT -5
Last week a fan was front row with a sign mocking MJF’s quarters story. He was pissed off about it on Twitter. It can’t be a coincidence that this angle started a week later. The idiot with the sign put the idea into MJF’s head.
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Post by The Legendary Ring Troll {BLM} on Oct 13, 2023 11:46:56 GMT -5
I am NOT Jewish or of Jewish ancestry, so do not take this as me discounting how anyone that is may feel. End of the day, I'm just some dumb dude. But Juice's gimmick is the whole "hand of God" shtick, and a roll of quarters as a fist pack is a wrestling trope going all the way back to Memphis. I wasn't getting any weirdness out of it at that part. MJF's selling of it and freaking out is what made me go "... huh?" before putting two and two together, and THAT is what made me tug my collar a bit at the timing of it all. I honestly didn’t make any connection until coming online. I had no clue why MJF was acting that way and don’t even know about Juice’s quarter roll thing. I was completely oblivious to what was going on.
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Oct 13, 2023 16:54:39 GMT -5
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Post by deviljatt86 on Oct 13, 2023 18:09:47 GMT -5
My 2 cents on this matter. THIS IS A WORK OF FICTION. As such, as long as it is not PROMOTING violence against someone) and it follows the rules of the FCC), everything is OK. It might not be good, and you may not like it, but criticize it on the basis of its quality and presentation. I personally enjoyed this promo. Juice took something that truly hurt MJF and used it to hurt him again. He basically ripped open MJF's old wounds and he was so effective, MJF lost control of himself. He was very vulnerable, seen by his urgency to talk to his only friend. He was angry, he was shaken. Its a brilliant villain move by Juice. Also, the storyline is showing as this antisemitic behavior as being abhorrent and bad. Its like the face is saying this stuff. Its the heel. Again, just my 2 cents.
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UN PLOMBIER NIGHTMARE #blm
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Post by UN PLOMBIER NIGHTMARE #blm on Oct 13, 2023 18:13:52 GMT -5
it is intriguing to think about if the commentators themselves didn't make such a big connection and an obvious hushed tone to push how offensive they wanted the viewer to find it
without the commentators doing that, i wholeheartedly think you could just chalk it up to an unfortunately timed juice robinson promo getting his shit in but once they did that, no mas from over here. i don't want to see it personally and i don't want juice's short term career prospects to be "remember when this guy was antisemitic to MJF"
you're turning team rocket into suguru geto. no thank you
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Post by Dub H on Oct 13, 2023 21:15:52 GMT -5
it is intriguing to think about if the commentators themselves didn't make such a big connection and an obvious hushed tone to push how offensive they wanted the viewer to find it without the commentators doing that, i wholeheartedly think you could just chalk it up to an unfortunately timed juice robinson promo getting his shit in but once they did that, no mas from over here. i don't want to see it personally and i don't want juice's short term career prospects to be "remember when this guy was antisemitic to MJF" you're turning team rocket into suguru geto. no thank you I would say Bullet Club is more like Team Skull
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Oct 14, 2023 19:47:53 GMT -5
They played MJF's Stand Up for Jewish Hate vignette tonight
Juice had a match and they didn't mention the quarters thing one time, only about the Dynamite Diamond Ring Battle Royal and post match, Jay gave Juice a custom ring for a weapon at the end of the match to use against MJF, they used it on Daniels, the match now seems to be Ring vs Ring power now.
This angle was definitely retconned, and it's for the best.
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Oct 14, 2023 21:45:16 GMT -5
There was some good faith feedback and bad faith feedback and I'm glad they listened to the right people. It's okay to talk about someone being Jewish and fighting anti-semitism but you don't need a bad guy leaning into that necessarily to get that across. But I don't want MJF to stray away from his identity.
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