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Post by A Platypus Rave on Oct 10, 2023 22:41:15 GMT -5
I will say that part of why these discussions are hard and don't really have a right answer is that wrestling operates in a really weird space as a form of entertainment. It's fiction at heart. These are people in roles playing characters. And there are bad people in fiction who do bad things that make you hate them. But wrestling often blends the wrestler with the character in a way few other mediums do. And it's live week to week meaning there's a stronger connection to real world events than there is for a scripted sitcom filmed months in advance. I personally never get too worked up over characters doing bad things because I'm used to TV featuring all forms of vile scum from racists to sexists and beyond. And to be clear, I don't think Juice's character here is supposed to hate Jews. I believe he's supposed to be a dick who doesn't care about the trauma he might bring up within Max. But even if he was, I wouldn't mind because I am fine with those characters in wrestling. But I also get that some see wrestling as an escape from that world and I understand why this would bother them. It's complicated. The other issue with Pro Wrestling is ... usually the guy that says racist shit is either always a bad guy or disappears eventually.. Like... Juice in theory could do something that gets face pops and turn face in like two weeks... so you have a guy doing a racist dick move suddenly being a good guy...
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Post by mrpeacock on Oct 10, 2023 22:41:19 GMT -5
Is it really in good faith if he’s doing it to atone for something messed up that he booked on his show? Yes, because it wasn't intended to be what people thought it would be You keep thinking he did this intentionally, nothing he's ever done has ever given off the implication he'd do that with the intention of this reaction. I’m not gonna go back and forth on it anymore. It was the biggest news story since it happened, if you think it’s all a coincidence then more power to you.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Oct 10, 2023 22:41:56 GMT -5
Might be the case, wouldn't be shocked if Tony also makes a donation to a charity or something in good faith or in kayfabe says he fined Juice and that money goes to a charity. Is it really in good faith if he’s doing it to atone for something messed up that he booked on his show? Yes, because I sincerely cannot imagine what a 'bad faith donation' would look like in this situation unless you want to make the claim that Tony Khan did al of this wanting to fall back on a donation apology to get away with sneaking antisemitism onto his show.
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Post by eJm on Oct 10, 2023 22:43:47 GMT -5
I’m not gonna go back and forth on it anymore. It was the biggest news story since it happened, if you think it’s all a coincidence then more power to you. Good, because I’ll warn once again (something I did say to you but you decided to continue for some reason) that it is not something we are going to without anything to back that up.
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Post by ben:friendship frog on Oct 10, 2023 22:44:07 GMT -5
The segment is up unedited on AEW's YouTube if anyone wants to see it
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Oct 10, 2023 22:46:05 GMT -5
The segment is up unedited on AEW's YouTube if anyone wants to see it Shockingly, no one on Youtube seems to be bringing up the quarters bit at all At least not right now
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Denny Zen
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Post by Denny Zen on Oct 10, 2023 22:46:19 GMT -5
Yes, because it wasn't intended to be what people thought it would be You keep thinking he did this intentionally, nothing he's ever done has ever given off the implication he'd do that with the intention of this reaction. I’m not gonna go back and forth on it anymore. It was the biggest news story since it happened, if you think it’s all a coincidence then more power to you. Bro, it’s honestly nauseating that you’re trying to equate a silly “I’m going to punch you with a roll of quarters” angle on a professional wrestling show to an actual act of war by a militant terrorist group which was borne out of nearly a century of complex sociopolitical, religious, and ethnic conflict in the Middle East. Like, it’s verging on offensive that you’re trivializing what’s currently going on in the Middle East so severely. Whatever point you think you’re making, this ain’t it. Tasteless as it may have been, AEW was not trying to implicate f***ing Hamas with that angle. EDIT: I was typing this before the mod warning above my post got posted. I’ll leave it alone, sorry.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Oct 10, 2023 22:47:24 GMT -5
Italian-American man who was pretending to be Arab lead a group of people who were obviously supposed to be terrorists strangle the Undertaker and carry out Davari like a martyr. Even then the setup for that was clearly going to continue Hassan's you hate me cause you're a racist you racist schtick... which was super old at that point... because like the one internet promo he cut about it was on how everyone was saying that a bunch of Arabs in ski masks got in the ring...but how could you tell they were Arabs if they were wearing ski masks? You racist. But it is kinda apples and oranges to compare the two segments.
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Post by Lance Uppercut on Oct 10, 2023 22:49:04 GMT -5
I didn't even take it for any kind of anti-semitism at first, until Max Sold it and the commentators brought up why he was so mad.
I thought it was just carny old wrestler things. OOh I'm going to hit you with a roll of quarters.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Oct 10, 2023 22:50:54 GMT -5
Italian-American man who was pretending to be Arab lead a group of people who were obviously supposed to be terrorists strangle the Undertaker and carry out Davari like a martyr. Even then the setup for that was clearly going to continue Hassan's you hate me cause you're a racist you racist schtick... which was super old at that point... because like the one internet promo he cut about it was on how everyone was saying that a bunch of Arabs in ski masks got in the ring...but how could you tell they were Arabs if they were wearing ski masks? You racist. But it is kinda apples and oranges to compare the two segments. I really don't think the segments are comparable tbh, Hassan's implied a lot more, while MJF's had an implication of antisemetic bullies who tormented MJF, it didn't imply or correlate to any ongoing tensions, it just didn't connect due to the optics of the fact those began happening right as they decided to do Juice's Quarter Punch angle into MJF's story
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Renslayer
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Post by Renslayer on Oct 10, 2023 22:55:03 GMT -5
Feels like this is a moment where they needed an "idk about this big dawg" guy in the room because I don't know about this big dawg...
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Post by eJm on Oct 10, 2023 23:04:16 GMT -5
Like, thinking more about it (and I’m a spiritualist more than anything so I have no real skin in this), the context of the thing I get. It’s better than what podcasters and Twitter accounts were pitching but I get it, getting under his skin by using his known history as well as using a weapon Juice has utilized for weeks.
It happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and should have either been tweaked, delayed or just not done and I completely get why people would be irked or offended by it.
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Oct 10, 2023 23:07:50 GMT -5
Like, thinking more about it (and I’m a spiritualist more than anything so I have no real skin in this), the context of the thing I get. It’s better than what podcasters and Twitter accounts were pitching but I get it, getting under his skin by using his known history as well as using a weapon Juice has utilized for weeks. It happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and should have either been tweaked, delayed or just not done and I completely get why people would be irked or offended by it. I would’ve been cool if MJF did an angle later on where he attacks Juice and basically threatens to do worse if he hears any allusions to rolls of quarters ever again. Then next week, it’s never really mentioned.
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Post by yokohamacpfc on Oct 10, 2023 23:15:26 GMT -5
I will say that part of why these discussions are hard and don't really have a right answer is that wrestling operates in a really weird space as a form of entertainment. It's fiction at heart. These are people in roles playing characters. And there are bad people in fiction who do bad things that make you hate them. But wrestling often blends the wrestler with the character in a way few other mediums do. And it's live week to week meaning there's a stronger connection to real world events than there is for a scripted sitcom filmed months in advance. I personally never get too worked up over characters doing bad things because I'm used to TV featuring all forms of vile scum from racists to sexists and beyond. And to be clear, I don't think Juice's character here is supposed to hate Jews. I believe he's supposed to be a dick who doesn't care about the trauma he might bring up within Max. But even if he was, I wouldn't mind because I am fine with those characters in wrestling. But I also get that some see wrestling as an escape from that world and I understand why this would bother them. It's complicated. This is why I’ve never got into inter gender wrestling. I know it’s safe, I know the performers are happy with it, I know it’s part of a fictional narrative that makes it little different from Buffy or Black Widow taking a kicking. It’s just that wrestling has enough of a ‘real’ presentation of its characters (if it’s done well) that I don’t want to see a man punch a woman in the face - too much of that in the real world.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Oct 10, 2023 23:19:44 GMT -5
I will say that part of why these discussions are hard and don't really have a right answer is that wrestling operates in a really weird space as a form of entertainment. It's fiction at heart. These are people in roles playing characters. And there are bad people in fiction who do bad things that make you hate them. But wrestling often blends the wrestler with the character in a way few other mediums do. And it's live week to week meaning there's a stronger connection to real world events than there is for a scripted sitcom filmed months in advance. I personally never get too worked up over characters doing bad things because I'm used to TV featuring all forms of vile scum from racists to sexists and beyond. And to be clear, I don't think Juice's character here is supposed to hate Jews. I believe he's supposed to be a dick who doesn't care about the trauma he might bring up within Max. But even if he was, I wouldn't mind because I am fine with those characters in wrestling. But I also get that some see wrestling as an escape from that world and I understand why this would bother them. It's complicated. This is why I’ve never got into inter gender wrestling. I know it’s safe, I know the performers are happy with it, I know it’s part of a fictional narrative that makes it little different from Buffy or Black Widow taking a kicking. It’s just that wrestling has enough of a ‘real’ presentation of its characters (if it’s done well) that I don’t want to see a man punch a woman in the face - too much of that in the real world. I advocate for intergender wrestling because women can beat the shit out of a guy just as easily, and I've seen so many matches in this way thanks to the likes of CHIKARA Pro, that I know it's both possible and seamless in its presentations I do get if some people wouldn't be down for it, of course, but I always have seen it as a means of equality, and not something dark.
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Post by Mozenrath on Oct 10, 2023 23:20:06 GMT -5
I understand what they're doing, and I pass zero judgment on MJF's involvement because it is his story, it happened to *him*, and he gets to do with that as he will, but throwing back to a legitimate hate crime he experienced is a wild choice. It made sense in the Punk feud, honestly, but this second one is where it's dicier, and the timing isn't helping, obviously.
I do recognize that the roll of quarters has a significance to Juice, too, so it's not entirely out of left field, but woof.
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Oct 10, 2023 23:22:50 GMT -5
I'm not usually a "the optics" kind of person, but I wouldn't have signed off on this at this of all times.
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Post by neilc on Oct 10, 2023 23:45:33 GMT -5
Maybe this'll have people respond negatively to me, but it's a thing Juice has always done, and MJF reacted negatively to it because it's from his own backstory It sets up actual heat with MJF and Juice as a hurdle for MJF to overcome before fighting Jay. There's nothing wrong with what they did out there tonight, and it worked well within the parameters of the storyline What's going on in the world sucks, no one's going to argue that, but looking at that and your first thought being "How dare they be antisemetic at a time like this??" is just... sorry, it's reaching a bit to me, and that's where I'll leave it, I'm just one take on the matter. If people had a problem with it however, it's not really my place to say there shouldn't be offense. This is my real time reaction and as I see more people's reactions I'll simply understand more too, which I want to. Can't wait to see how the feud develops further on my end. It was f***ing stupid. I already don't want to see Juice on my TV (He's a caveman who sounds like Gilbert Gottfried) but now I want him and whoever OK'd this to be suspended. Wrong time for antsemitic tropes.
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Post by Johnny B. Decent on Oct 10, 2023 23:45:45 GMT -5
So, what all happened?
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Post by neilc on Oct 10, 2023 23:52:49 GMT -5
No one in the thread has said TK should be fired nor Juice for that matter What's mostly been said was this is not a good look Page one someone said "TK should fire himself for oking that", let alone expanding outside of here I'm not disagreeing about the optics at all. I'm sure if Vince had done an angle like this, everyone would have a different reaction. But it's good ol' Tony, so it gets more of a pass.
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