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Post by The Rick Jericho on Jan 4, 2024 19:14:53 GMT -5
They were at different points in their careers over with the audience.
Before or after Heyman, so it proves they clicked with the crowd. But why did these three men fail with attached to Heyman?
Cesaro was a United States champion and got over huge as a Real American with Zeb and Swagger. Won the first ever Andre Battle Royal and got a nuclear reaction the next night. A few weeks later, he's dead in the water and eventually separates from Heyman. Recovers but years after teaming with Sheamus who basically reignited his career which was foundering up to that point.
Ryback. Over in 2012-13 before the heel turn that killed his momentum. People thought Heyman could heat him up again as a monster heel. Worked with Punk in another failed feud between the two with the heel/face roles reversed in 2013. Then just became a Bully who didn't recover until that mini-face turn in 2014 around Survivor Series. Won the Intercontinental title in 2015, so he bounced back after Heyman.
Curtis Axel. Actually won the IC title with Paul Heyman. But it just didn't click. Some have called him the worst IC champion of all time and that the belt hit rock bottom with him as the champion. Heck, CM Punk didn't even want the belt when they feuded in the fall of 2013. Doesn't recover until Axel-Mania is born in 2015.
So what exactly happened with these 3 under the guidance of Paul Heyman? Lesnar worked. Punk worked. And today Roman worked. But these 3 guys?
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Wieners=$$$
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Post by Wieners=$$$ on Jan 4, 2024 19:19:40 GMT -5
WWE didn't want to push Cesaro, Ryback or Axel at that point, and Heyman was better utilized with other talent.
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CMWaters
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Post by CMWaters on Jan 4, 2024 19:22:14 GMT -5
Cesaro IIRC it was because he was just put in so Heyman could have a reason to be on TV every week to boast about Brock beating the streak.
Axel was never really that credible a threat, even when winning the IC title.
Ryback was mostly damaged goods at that point after losing pretty much every major feud he had.
Punk was already champion when Heyman joined him so not much new to build there. Brock had the rocket strapped to him from the start so that's why that relationship worked. Reigns was established power and the Heyman alliance just worked to change Roman's character.
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Post by Super Duper Dragunov on Jan 4, 2024 19:32:54 GMT -5
Cesaro: Vince sabotaged it like he did with anyone that got over without his permission
Ryback: is Ryback
Axel: has the charisma of bread
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Post by cassonova on Jan 4, 2024 19:35:04 GMT -5
...because he could only talk about Brock Lesnar?
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Post by LiamMcDuggle on Jan 4, 2024 19:36:59 GMT -5
WWE didn't want to push Cesaro, Ryback or Axel at that point, and Heyman was better utilized with other talent. After Cesaro won the Andre battle royal, they took away his theme. Has anyone ever gotten over without a theme? It just felt like intentional sabotage. |
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Legion
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Post by Legion on Jan 4, 2024 19:47:27 GMT -5
Cesaro was cursed cos he had an accent, and we all know how Kevin Dunn had Vince feel about that. Given the big changes to his presentation after as well, that really feels like a Dunn do in.
Ryback was so over as the feed me more monster, but after so many losses, by the time he got to Heyman he was damaged goods and no one cared anymore.
Curtis Axel wasnt his dad.
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Wieners=$$$
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Post by Wieners=$$$ on Jan 4, 2024 19:47:31 GMT -5
WWE didn't want to push Cesaro, Ryback or Axel at that point, and Heyman was better utilized with other talent. After Cesaro won the Andre battle royal, they took away his theme. Has anyone ever gotten over without a theme? It just felt like intentional sabotage. As a long-time Claudio/Cesaro fan(seriously, the dude's been in my top 5 for over a decade), I will never understand his WWE booking. The spot you mentioned should've catapulted him to the next level. I guess Vince and co. never saw anything about him above "feats of strength guy." Not like his WWE run wasn't lined with titles and exposure, but I believe it just came down to how he spoke. |
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Nosnorb
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Post by Nosnorb on Jan 4, 2024 19:48:16 GMT -5
Won the Intercontinental title in 2015, so he bounced back after Heyman. I'm just going to assume you've forgotten that IC title run. First off, by that stage the IC title was almost worthless. Wade Barrett won it in 2015 and lost almost every single match he had while he had the belt, his biggest win with the belt was when Dean Ambrose got DQ'ed for kicking too much ass at Fastlane and for a chunk of the run, had his belt stolen to set up a ladder match at 'mania for that title in which every main event face that was more over than Roman was in. Then Daniel Bryan won the title at 'mania and sustained a (at the time) career ending concussion on the following Smackdown. The belt was vacated and to determine a new champion, an Elimination Chamber match took part and Ryback won it. Sadly for the Big Guy and the belt, there were two huge problems in that 1 - the match was in Corpus Christi so the crowd was dead and 2 - the match was one of the worst that year, absolutely filled with botches and with one of it's most memorable parts being Dolph Ziggler literally directing everyone after Mark Henry entered the match early due to a spot breaking the pod. After that awful start, Ryback feuded with Big Show and had an awful match at Money in the Bank, then missed Battleground due to a Staph infection. He then had a wet fart triple threat with Big Show and The Miz, who was heatless at the time, and then lost the title to Kevin Owens at Night of Champions. In short, his run with the IC title was awful thanks to the way he won it, feuding with The Miz and Big Show, and getting a Staph infection. Dude absolutely did not bounce back after Heyman. |
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UN PLOMBIER NIGHTMARE #blm
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Post by UN PLOMBIER NIGHTMARE #blm on Jan 4, 2024 19:51:13 GMT -5
various reasons but vince either didn't want any of them to get to the spot many felt like they should have been at or incompetence. same shit really
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Jan 4, 2024 20:08:36 GMT -5
There's no saying for sure whether the will was there from Heyman to see them get much push, but it was clear the will from WWE sure as hell wasn't. Just from the way the Vince and Austin interview went with mention of Cesaor, its' clear there was never ap lan tand that Vince was ready to say whatever he had to say to himself to make it not happen. When the boss is ready to lie to himself about crowd reactions that way, there's really nothing that can be done.
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ayumidah
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Post by ayumidah on Jan 4, 2024 20:11:11 GMT -5
WWE didn't want to push Cesaro, Ryback or Axel at that point, and Heyman was better utilized with other talent. After Cesaro won the Andre battle royal, they took away his theme. Has anyone ever gotten over without a theme? It just felt like intentional sabotage. Ciampa? |
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Post by LiamMcDuggle on Jan 4, 2024 20:15:11 GMT -5
After Cesaro won the Andre battle royal, they took away his theme. Has anyone ever gotten over without a theme? It just felt like intentional sabotage. Ciampa? I guess that did work, but was he a face? |
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ayumidah
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Post by ayumidah on Jan 4, 2024 20:18:26 GMT -5
I guess that did work, but was he a face? nah it was during his heel run |
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CMWaters
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Post by CMWaters on Jan 4, 2024 20:25:58 GMT -5
WWE didn't want to push Cesaro, Ryback or Axel at that point, and Heyman was better utilized with other talent. After Cesaro won the Andre battle royal, they took away his theme. Has anyone ever gotten over without a theme? It just felt like intentional sabotage. Bruno Sammartino.  |
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Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby
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Post by Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby on Jan 4, 2024 20:49:04 GMT -5
Heyman bragging about Lesnar while managing Cesaro would have worked fine if it led to an actual friggin' match between Lesnar and Cesaro within the year. Which would have ruled and probably made Cesaro look like a beast even if he lost.
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Fade
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Post by Fade on Jan 4, 2024 20:52:22 GMT -5
It felt like they barely tried with Cesaro. The ryback pairing was weird. Axel never really felt like a big deal despite them trying. Axel got over during that miz thing right? This is a play. Everyone’s got their part.
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Hypnosis
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Post by Hypnosis on Jan 4, 2024 21:09:13 GMT -5
Heyman bragging about Lesnar while managing Cesaro would have worked fine if it led to an actual friggin' match between Lesnar and Cesaro within the year. Which would have ruled and probably made Cesaro look like a beast even if he lost. Huge missed opportunity. Would have loved seeing Lesnar take the Swing. |
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Hypnosis
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Post by Hypnosis on Jan 4, 2024 21:10:16 GMT -5
It felt like they barely tried with Cesaro. The ryback pairing was weird. Axel never really felt like a big deal despite them trying. Axel got over during that miz thing right? This is a play. Everyone’s got their part. I liked the B-Team with Axel and Bo Dallas. |
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CMWaters
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Post by CMWaters on Jan 4, 2024 21:11:14 GMT -5
Of course we're all forgetting about probably one of the biggest Heyman guy fails, even if it was between Lesnar's runs:  |
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