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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Mar 26, 2024 18:21:09 GMT -5
Segment was f***ing great, that was an epic beatdown and made Rocky look like the biggest piece of shit. And you still have 3 huge matches coming out of Mania with Cody/Rock, Cody/Roman III and the inevitable Rock/Roman. I’ve been absolutely loving this feud, and yes Roman is looking like the side chick but that’s pretty intentional. Did they not do an entire SmackDown segment explicitly showing you that Roman is leery of Rock trying to overshadow him? Did I imagine a segment where Roman leaned on the ropes and rolled his eyes while Rock did his thing and then Roman demanded Rock acknowledge him? Last year’s Cody/Roman feud lacked that big heel beatdown segment that made you want to see the heel get his ass kicked and last night took care of that in spades.
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Post by YAKMAN is ICHIBAN on Mar 26, 2024 19:41:38 GMT -5
I guess occasionally I do miss things by tuning out at around 10
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Post by uewfigfed on Mar 26, 2024 19:45:05 GMT -5
I guess occasionally I do miss things by tuning out at around 10 You and I both dammit. Lol
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Renslayer
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
every time i come around your city...
Posts: 16,557
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Post by Renslayer on Mar 26, 2024 21:58:41 GMT -5
That is fair, actually. 85% of the time, a nonsensical build is forgotten about if the match delivers and no real reason it can't unless they really f*** it up at the end (which, look, I know new people in charge but as long as a lot of the same heads are floating in there, no ruling out anything for me). Like, HHH/Orton is the biggest notable exception I can think of but that was a great build that they shot in the foot on the go-home show and placed in the death slot of "After Michaels/Taker". EDIT: Oh, Orton/Bray could be argued. Great build, no idea what the hell they were going for in the actual match. Hell, Austin/Rock at WMx7 had the Debra stuff leading into it that’s often forgotten in favor of the excellent match we got. The rock got hit by a tractor trailer by hogan and JR told everyone during the match to forget about the build 😂😂
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Post by HMARK Center on Mar 27, 2024 7:46:34 GMT -5
Hell, Austin/Rock at WMx7 had the Debra stuff leading into it that’s often forgotten in favor of the excellent match we got. The rock got hit by a tractor trailer by hogan and JR told everyone during the match to forget about the build 😂😂 It's why I'm constantly on about promos and angles not equating with "storytelling": in the end, the story unfolds in the ring, utilizing characters, their motivations, their strengths and vulnerabilities, and letting that play out in a physical storytelling format. If you've got that, then you barely need any talking or angles to get people hyped for what's about to happen. If the story doesn't mainly play out in the ring, then something is probably amiss. I was just watching the entrances for Bret vs. Austin at both Survivor Series '96 and Wrestlemania 13; what really got me about those is how outside of Austin's "put a 'S' in front of 'Hitman' and you've got my opinion on Bret Hart!" line and shorter promos calling Bret out, most people can't really tell you what the "moments" in the build to those matches looked like. Instead, it was a matter of straightforward character types and motivations: Steve Austin was a veteran, but a guy who felt he'd been consistently passed over for bigger things over the course of his career. Bret Hart was an established icon in the WWF, so much so that he was away filming a TV show and the audience will still get updates about him, and his pending return was treated as a major deal. So Austin got pissed: he saw in Bret both a guy he resented for having the success that Austin never got, but also an opportunity, because if he could get Bret into a match and beat him he'd be made for life. So what happens in those entrances? You get Ross saying things like "these guys aren't garbagemen, they aren't (whatever other gimmick), they're wrestlers!"; Survivor Series has Bret seeming just pretty happy to be back, but by Mania he's so fed up with Austin that the two of them are absolutely laser-focused on one another. It's something similar with Hogan/Rock; the stuff with the truck and whatnot probably did a disservice to the match's build, since the allure was in who the two guys were and their respective places in WWF history. Same with Rock/Austin in 2001: it's about the two top dogs in the company fighting it out, with the not at all subtle subtext of Austin realizing he's at risk of being replaced by Rock and not being able to live with the idea, leaving the Debra stuff pretty pointless. Basically, for all the talk I see from some corners of the internet about how there needs to be "build" (which basically always means "lengthy promos or angles"), it's funny how, end of the day, we tend to just remember a few key moments and then the matches themselves, while the longer or more involved angles/segments we do remember are things that tie into the conflict and can play out in the eventual match, ala the way Andre turned against Hogan in '87, or the Rock/Austin face to face in '01, etc.
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thecrusherwi
El Dandy
the Financially Responsible Man
Brawl For All
Posts: 7,654
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Post by thecrusherwi on Mar 27, 2024 8:18:22 GMT -5
The rock got hit by a tractor trailer by hogan and JR told everyone during the match to forget about the build 😂😂 It's why I'm constantly on about promos and angles not equating with "storytelling": in the end, the story unfolds in the ring, utilizing characters, their motivations, their strengths and vulnerabilities, and letting that play out in a physical storytelling format. If you've got that, then you barely need any talking or angles to get people hyped for what's about to happen. If the story doesn't mainly play out in the ring, then something is probably amiss. I was just watching the entrances for Bret vs. Austin at both Survivor Series '96 and Wrestlemania 13; what really got me about those is how outside of Austin's "put a 'S' in front of 'Hitman' and you've got my opinion on Bret Hart!" line and shorter promos calling Bret out, most people can't really tell you what the "moments" in the build to those matches looked like. Instead, it was a matter of straightforward character types and motivations: Steve Austin was a veteran, but a guy who felt he'd been consistently passed over for bigger things over the course of his career. Bret Hart was an established icon in the WWF, so much so that he was away filming a TV show and the audience will still get updates about him, and his pending return was treated as a major deal. So Austin got pissed: he saw in Bret both a guy he resented for having the success that Austin never got, but also an opportunity, because if he could get Bret into a match and beat him he'd be made for life. So what happens in those entrances? You get Ross saying things like "these guys aren't garbagemen, they aren't (whatever other gimmick), they're wrestlers!"; Survivor Series has Bret seeming just pretty happy to be back, but by Mania he's so fed up with Austin that the two of them are absolutely laser-focused on one another. It's something similar with Hogan/Rock; the stuff with the truck and whatnot probably did a disservice to the match's build, since the allure was in who the two guys were and their respective places in WWF history. Same with Rock/Austin in 2001: it's about the two top dogs in the company fighting it out, with the not at all subtle subtext of Austin realizing he's at risk of being replaced by Rock and not being able to live with the idea, leaving the Debra stuff pretty pointless. Basically, for all the talk I see from some corners of the internet about how there needs to be "build" (which basically always means "lengthy promos or angles"), it's funny how, end of the day, we tend to just remember a few key moments and then the matches themselves, while the longer or more involved angles/segments we do remember are things that tie into the conflict and can play out in the eventual match, ala the way Andre turned against Hogan in '87, or the Rock/Austin face to face in '01, etc. Good stuff, and it is reflective of how I've felt about this Wrestlemania "build". The press conference in Vegas set everything up perfectly. I was ready to see those two matches and nothing that has happened since has changed my excitement level. Honestly time traveling Mean Gene could've been in the Event Center and and simply announced the two main events after that, and the event would play out exactly the same. Nothing that has been said or done since that press conference will have much impact on the story at all. That initial event gave you all the ground work you needed. "We're the two GOATS from the GOAT family. Get out of our way." "The f*** you are. My Dad was the GOAT and I want revenge for last year. Step aside old man" "I'm the World Champ no one cares about and I've worked too damn hard to be disrespected by some part timers". Done. Let's fight. Also for your historical examples, very true and typical of Wrestlemania builds. After Savage turned on Hogan, they didn't interact for literally two months prior to Wrestlemania V (there might have been one podium interview with Liz where they both were out there but nothing happened other than some shouting and pointing). They just cut pre-recorded promos on each other. Hogan and Warrior was largely the same after Royal Rumble 1990 outside of saving each other one time each from Earthquake. Once Savage clocked Hogan with the belt and once Hogan and Warrior were face to face for the first time ever in the Rumble, the stage was set. Nothing more was needed to be said or done.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Mar 27, 2024 8:36:11 GMT -5
It's why I'm constantly on about promos and angles not equating with "storytelling": in the end, the story unfolds in the ring, utilizing characters, their motivations, their strengths and vulnerabilities, and letting that play out in a physical storytelling format. If you've got that, then you barely need any talking or angles to get people hyped for what's about to happen. If the story doesn't mainly play out in the ring, then something is probably amiss. I was just watching the entrances for Bret vs. Austin at both Survivor Series '96 and Wrestlemania 13; what really got me about those is how outside of Austin's "put a 'S' in front of 'Hitman' and you've got my opinion on Bret Hart!" line and shorter promos calling Bret out, most people can't really tell you what the "moments" in the build to those matches looked like. Instead, it was a matter of straightforward character types and motivations: Steve Austin was a veteran, but a guy who felt he'd been consistently passed over for bigger things over the course of his career. Bret Hart was an established icon in the WWF, so much so that he was away filming a TV show and the audience will still get updates about him, and his pending return was treated as a major deal. So Austin got pissed: he saw in Bret both a guy he resented for having the success that Austin never got, but also an opportunity, because if he could get Bret into a match and beat him he'd be made for life. So what happens in those entrances? You get Ross saying things like "these guys aren't garbagemen, they aren't (whatever other gimmick), they're wrestlers!"; Survivor Series has Bret seeming just pretty happy to be back, but by Mania he's so fed up with Austin that the two of them are absolutely laser-focused on one another. It's something similar with Hogan/Rock; the stuff with the truck and whatnot probably did a disservice to the match's build, since the allure was in who the two guys were and their respective places in WWF history. Same with Rock/Austin in 2001: it's about the two top dogs in the company fighting it out, with the not at all subtle subtext of Austin realizing he's at risk of being replaced by Rock and not being able to live with the idea, leaving the Debra stuff pretty pointless. Basically, for all the talk I see from some corners of the internet about how there needs to be "build" (which basically always means "lengthy promos or angles"), it's funny how, end of the day, we tend to just remember a few key moments and then the matches themselves, while the longer or more involved angles/segments we do remember are things that tie into the conflict and can play out in the eventual match, ala the way Andre turned against Hogan in '87, or the Rock/Austin face to face in '01, etc. Good stuff, and it is reflective of how I've felt about this Wrestlemania "build". The press conference in Vegas set everything up perfectly. I was ready to see those two matches and nothing that has happened since has changed my excitement level. Honestly time traveling Mean Gene could've been in the Event Center and and simply announced the two main events after that, and the event would play out exactly the same. Nothing that has been said or done since that press conference will have much impact on the story at all. That initial event gave you all the ground work you needed. "We're the two GOATS from the GOAT family. Get out of our way." "The f*** you are. My Dad was the GOAT and I want revenge for last year. Step aside old man" "I'm the World Champ no one cares about and I've worked too damn hard to be disrespected by some part timers". Done. Let's fight. Also for your historical examples, very true and typical of Wrestlemania builds. After Savage turned on Hogan, they didn't interact for literally two months prior to Wrestlemania V (there might have been one podium interview with Liz where they both were out there but nothing happened other than some shouting and pointing). They just cut pre-recorded promos on each other. Hogan and Warrior was largely the same after Royal Rumble 1990 outside of saving each other one time each from Earthquake. Once Savage clocked Hogan with the belt and once Hogan and Warrior were face to face for the first time ever in the Rumble, the stage was set. Nothing more was needed to be said or done. The issue that comes from this is that you still have 10 weeks of TV (and often another PPV) to fill between Rumble and WM before you do the match. And it’s not the 1980s anymore where you can get away with enhancement squashes and pre-taped promos for most of it (as much as I’d love to see someone take the risk and try to do that and see if it actually DOES tank the ratings or not). If one good promo is enough to sell the match, what the f*** do you do for the other nine and a half weeks? So many modern WM feuds have had this problem, and the one I always reference is Lynch v Rousey v Flair at WM35, which was largely already built up two months earlier when Lynch v Rousey was meant to happen at the previous Survivor Series, had one hot promo the night after Lynch won the Rumble, and then got overly convoluted by adding the McMahons, then Flair, then an injury angle for Lynch to handicap her effort to win back her spot in the match, then the other women’s belt and finally, a good backstage fight at the end. By the time the match happened, it was less “LET’S F***ING GOOOO” and more “All right, we can finally do the f***ing match”.
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thecrusherwi
El Dandy
the Financially Responsible Man
Brawl For All
Posts: 7,654
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Post by thecrusherwi on Mar 27, 2024 8:42:09 GMT -5
Good stuff, and it is reflective of how I've felt about this Wrestlemania "build". The press conference in Vegas set everything up perfectly. I was ready to see those two matches and nothing that has happened since has changed my excitement level. Honestly time traveling Mean Gene could've been in the Event Center and and simply announced the two main events after that, and the event would play out exactly the same. Nothing that has been said or done since that press conference will have much impact on the story at all. That initial event gave you all the ground work you needed. "We're the two GOATS from the GOAT family. Get out of our way." "The f*** you are. My Dad was the GOAT and I want revenge for last year. Step aside old man" "I'm the World Champ no one cares about and I've worked too damn hard to be disrespected by some part timers". Done. Let's fight. Also for your historical examples, very true and typical of Wrestlemania builds. After Savage turned on Hogan, they didn't interact for literally two months prior to Wrestlemania V (there might have been one podium interview with Liz where they both were out there but nothing happened other than some shouting and pointing). They just cut pre-recorded promos on each other. Hogan and Warrior was largely the same after Royal Rumble 1990 outside of saving each other one time each from Earthquake. Once Savage clocked Hogan with the belt and once Hogan and Warrior were face to face for the first time ever in the Rumble, the stage was set. Nothing more was needed to be said or done. The issue that comes from this is that you still have 10 weeks of TV (and often another PPV) to fill between Rumble and WM before you do the match. And it’s not the 1980s anymore where you can get away with enhancement squashes and pre-taped promos for most of it (as much as I’d love to see someone take the risk and try to do that and see if it actually DOES tank the ratings or not). If one good promo is enough to sell the match, what the f*** do you do for the other nine and a half weeks? So many modern WM feuds have had this problem, and the one I always reference is Lynch v Rousey v Flair at WM35, which was largely already built up two months earlier when Lynch v Rousey was meant to happen at the previous Survivor Series, had one hot promo the night after Lynch won the Rumble, and then got overly convoluted by adding the McMahons, then Flair, then an injury angle for Lynch to handicap her effort to win back her spot in the match, then the other women’s belt and finally, a good backstage fight at the end. By the time the match happened, it was less “LET’S F***ING GOOOO” and more “All right, we can finally do the f***ing match”. I totally agree and that is a problem with the modern TV landscape that must be very challenging to navigate. But I think I'm aware of that challenge when watching the show. I know that what they're presenting is much more likely them going "Damn, is it April 6th yet?" and less them weaving some subtle intricate story that I have to pay attention to. Guys cutting promos every week in 2024 is no different than Hogan and Warrior rambling at each other for 10 minutes on Superstars in 1990. It's all just to fill time before they can actually have the match.
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Post by Lizuka #BLM on Mar 27, 2024 9:58:55 GMT -5
I say move the Royal Rumble to February. No one really minded or even especially noticed when SummerSlam was in July so tradition means nothing and it'd be way easier to write stories if you're shaving like four weeks off.
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Mar 27, 2024 10:26:13 GMT -5
I say move the Royal Rumble to February. No one really minded or even especially noticed when SummerSlam was in July so tradition means nothing and it'd be way easier to write stories if you're shaving like four weeks off. Move the Rumble to February and make January’s supercards special Day One/New Years’ Revolution episodes of Raw and Smackdown.
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Post by eJm on Mar 27, 2024 10:32:28 GMT -5
Good stuff, and it is reflective of how I've felt about this Wrestlemania "build". The press conference in Vegas set everything up perfectly. I was ready to see those two matches and nothing that has happened since has changed my excitement level. Honestly time traveling Mean Gene could've been in the Event Center and and simply announced the two main events after that, and the event would play out exactly the same. Nothing that has been said or done since that press conference will have much impact on the story at all. That initial event gave you all the ground work you needed. "We're the two GOATS from the GOAT family. Get out of our way." "The f*** you are. My Dad was the GOAT and I want revenge for last year. Step aside old man" "I'm the World Champ no one cares about and I've worked too damn hard to be disrespected by some part timers". Done. Let's fight. Also for your historical examples, very true and typical of Wrestlemania builds. After Savage turned on Hogan, they didn't interact for literally two months prior to Wrestlemania V (there might have been one podium interview with Liz where they both were out there but nothing happened other than some shouting and pointing). They just cut pre-recorded promos on each other. Hogan and Warrior was largely the same after Royal Rumble 1990 outside of saving each other one time each from Earthquake. Once Savage clocked Hogan with the belt and once Hogan and Warrior were face to face for the first time ever in the Rumble, the stage was set. Nothing more was needed to be said or done. The issue that comes from this is that you still have 10 weeks of TV (and often another PPV) to fill between Rumble and WM before you do the match. And it’s not the 1980s anymore where you can get away with enhancement squashes and pre-taped promos for most of it (as much as I’d love to see someone take the risk and try to do that and see if it actually DOES tank the ratings or not). If one good promo is enough to sell the match, what the f*** do you do for the other nine and a half weeks? So many modern WM feuds have had this problem, and the one I always reference is Lynch v Rousey v Flair at WM35, which was largely already built up two months earlier when Lynch v Rousey was meant to happen at the previous Survivor Series, had one hot promo the night after Lynch won the Rumble, and then got overly convoluted by adding the McMahons, then Flair, then an injury angle for Lynch to handicap her effort to win back her spot in the match, then the other women’s belt and finally, a good backstage fight at the end. By the time the match happened, it was less “LET’S F***ING GOOOO” and more “All right, we can finally do the f***ing match”. Yeah, exactly. Like, some of the builds (at least how WWE does them) is more about stretching out a story that's already established. They've laid the foundation and build the house, people are ready to go in except you need to build the breakfast nook, the indoor swimming pool and the moat when all people want to do is unpack their stuff and go to bed so by the time they do, they won't appreciate the extra stuff you've done.
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Renslayer
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
every time i come around your city...
Posts: 16,557
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Post by Renslayer on Mar 27, 2024 14:30:20 GMT -5
LOOK AT YOU NOW, BOY! HUH?! LOOK AT YOU NOW!!!
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4real
Wade Wilson
Posts: 27,672
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Post by 4real on Mar 27, 2024 16:26:58 GMT -5
Somebody needs to make a Rock/Phil Collins/Take a look at Me now supercut
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Post by Doo Doo is Worse Than WCW 2000 on Mar 28, 2024 1:29:25 GMT -5
I'm repeating myself, but I just can't get over psychopathic heel Rock being a thing now. It rules so much. No corny jokes, just beating beloved babyfaces to a bloody pulp like an old school heel. Makes me hope Roman's the face when they do him vs. Rock.
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Mar 28, 2024 6:40:12 GMT -5
I'm repeating myself, but I just can't get over psychopathic heel Rock being a thing now. It rules so much. No corny jokes, just beating beloved babyfaces to a bloody pulp like an old school heel. Makes me hope Roman's the face when they do him vs. Rock. If anyone could do anything in his power to grt Roman cheered as a face, it’s this incarnation of the Rock.
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Mar 28, 2024 11:05:49 GMT -5
Just pointing out -> the rain was a paid actor
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Post by Fade is a CodyCryBaby on Mar 28, 2024 11:34:56 GMT -5
Just pointing out -> the rain was a paid actor Anything in rain becomes 5x as cool immediately
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Post by Defrebel - White Pony on Mar 28, 2024 12:25:01 GMT -5
Just pointing out -> the rain was a paid actor Anything in rain becomes 5x as cool immediately Literally tho as soon as they went outside my brain went OH f*** ITS RAINING
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Mar 28, 2024 12:32:27 GMT -5
I do like that there’s been progression with this Rock character. He started off as a retread of the heel Hollywood Rock, complete with mocking the live crowds, then as it became clear that Cody would not flinch, he just got pushed further into this psychopath heel who’ll beat your ass bloody to prove a point.
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UN PLOMBIER NIGHTMARE #blm
Grimlock
Sponsored by Skittles/Burger King/Chef Boyardee/LUGZ Boots/BOD Body Spray/FRAM Air Filters/STRIDEX
Posts: 13,012
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Post by UN PLOMBIER NIGHTMARE #blm on Mar 28, 2024 12:56:19 GMT -5
mama rhodes, you fell asleep before 10 pm because raw had trained you to believe nothing would ever happen in the last hour after the last 15 years of television, look at you now mama rhodes look at the fool you’ve become mama rhodes the rock gonna learn you to drink some zoa right at the beginning of monday night raw so this doesn’t happen again mama rhodes muahahaha mama rhodes my belt is holding up my pants ya like it I think its neat look at you
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