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Post by Tea & Crumpets on Nov 21, 2007 13:03:30 GMT -5
One that confuses me... CHIKARA is a comedy based fed. And WWE prides itself as a serious fed. Yet CHIKARA can have serious guys & feuds within the comedy. But WWE can't have goofy gimmicks like Santino & Little Bastard? It's more of a devil's advocate question than anything but the logic hypocrisy in there is glaring. Hmmm...Well, first things first I love CHIKARA- it's easily my favourite promotion out there right now. Once upon a time though I couldn't stand the OTT wacky stuff- 2 years ago or so I saw some stuff about Dragon Dragon and thought- what the hell is this, that is so lame (admittedly at the time I had no idea what promotion in was) But through this board I heard about CHIKARA, gave it a try, and loved it. Sure, some stuff doesn't click- Munk/Crabtree was atrocious, and Kingston overdid it a bit with the CM Punk-is-mad references. Also, La Parkita vs Payaso del Futuro from Maximum Overdraft is a total waste of space and kills a lot of the heat the shwo had built up at that point, IMO. Having said that, I still enjoy a lot of it. All I can say is that CHIKARA is the marmite, or Monty Python, or pro wrestling- if you love it, you REALLY love it. If you don't like it, you'll NEVER like or get it. I'd agree with Spank's recommendation for a show earlier- if you like the wrestling and dislike the wacky, then get Rey de Voladores. Excellent wrestling show with quality stuff throughout. If you really don't like the wackiness, then fastforward the Order/AnDrew+Donst and Lance Steel/Fire Ant matches. They're the shortest matches on the card anyway, so won't make too much of an impact. Also, I'd recommend Tag World Grand Prix 2006 Night 3. That has pretty much no comedy spots except for a 10 man tag match, and the rest of the show is top notch wrestling action (The opening women's tag, Yago/Necro Butcher, Incoherence/Team DDT, and all 3 KOW matches in particular are great). Plus, if you like Delirious as you said, the remaining occassional comedy spot shouldn't bother you. And as for the CHIKARA/WWE debate, my view is this: I don't mind comedy, if it is GOOD comedy. CHIKARA mostly hits the mark for me with their comedy- not neccessarily because the gimmick is so crazy and outlandish, but because it is well executed. WWE rarely hits the mark for me, their execution is often poor in my opinion. Thus why I probably wouldn't like Hydra or the Colony in WWE-If I had tyo guess, I'd guess they'd do it wrong. Having siad that, there is some WWE comedy I like, most notably Santino and William Regal. If WWE pulled off one of CHIKARA's crazier gimmicks, like Dragon Dragon, and executed it as well as CHIKARA do, I'd enjoy it. I don't enjoy the gimmicks because they're in CHIKARA, I enjoy them because I think they're well-executed. But again, just my opinion.
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Post by mysterydriver on Nov 21, 2007 13:39:34 GMT -5
Someone find Funaki because....INDEED!
That match was horrible and just not entertaining to me. It completely slowed the show down and actually felt embarassing at the end of it.
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Post by TheMediocreWarrior on Nov 21, 2007 13:44:00 GMT -5
I've enjoyed everything I've seen from CHIKARA so far, with the exception of a match that was posted on here a few days ago between CP Munk and...I forgot his name. Acts like an old guy. I'm sure someone knows it. But I really couldn't stand that match. The commentator was just going on about how pissed Cm Punk was gonna be. But I may have been spoiled by the likes of Colt Cabana, Delirious and Kikutaro when it comes to comedy spots, so...take it for what it's worth. That's what caused me to make this thread. That was so horrible and insulting, no wonder Punk (if the rumors are true) dislikes CHIKARA. If he dislikes Chikara then he needs to develop a sense of humor and remove the stick from his you know where. Pro-wrestling is a silly form of entertainment, and Chikara works because they know this and "turn the volume up" on the wackiness. I don't get how someone could write off Chikara as being too silly compared to the rest of pro-wrestling. The way I see it, if you can swallow the irish whip, there's nothing wrong with The Colony or Dragon Dragon. Oh, and I think Festus and Hornswoggle are great. I think one of the reasons why ROH doesn't appeal to me is because from what I've seen it seems to take itself almost too seriously. Or at least that's the vibe I get from hardcore ROH fans.
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Brain Of F'n J
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Brain Of F'n J on Nov 21, 2007 14:04:37 GMT -5
I think one of the reasons why ROH doesn't appeal to me is because from what I've seen it seems to take itself almost too seriously. Or at least that's the vibe I get from hardcore ROH fans. Nice generalization there. Maybe, like you prefer a promotion that is light-hearted and over-the-top, we "hardcore ROH fans" prefer a wrestling promotion that treats it like a sport. Not everyone has to march in the same parade. Boku is trying to say he's playing devil's advocate and trying to understand the allure, and because he doesn't swallow the Kool-Aid on command, he's getting ganged up on like a child molester in prison. Anybody else see the flaw in this? A bunch of people who like a light-hearted, silly product, bashing one guy over the head because he doesn't get the joke? Way to go, guys. This'll make him so open-minded. Jed Shaffer ~I don't get CHIKARA either, Boku. You're not alone.
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Post by TheMediocreWarrior on Nov 21, 2007 14:15:52 GMT -5
I think one of the reasons why ROH doesn't appeal to me is because from what I've seen it seems to take itself almost too seriously. Or at least that's the vibe I get from hardcore ROH fans. Nice generalization there. Maybe, like you prefer a promotion that is light-hearted and over-the-top, we "hardcore ROH fans" prefer a wrestling promotion that treats it like a sport. Not everyone has to march in the same parade. That's my point, though. It's pro-wrestling. It's over the top by nature. No need to get so defensive, I'm just saying that if it does take itself too seriously that's kind of a turnoff for me. If I want to watch something that presents itself as a sport, I'll watch an actual sport like MMA. Every time I look into ROH I get the vibe that the people following it are the wrestling equivalent to indy music snobs.
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Post by Spankymac is sick of the swiss on Nov 21, 2007 14:39:31 GMT -5
I think one of the reasons why ROH doesn't appeal to me is because from what I've seen it seems to take itself almost too seriously. Or at least that's the vibe I get from hardcore ROH fans. Nice generalization there. Maybe, like you prefer a promotion that is light-hearted and over-the-top, we "hardcore ROH fans" prefer a wrestling promotion that treats it like a sport. Not everyone has to march in the same parade. Boku is trying to say he's playing devil's advocate and trying to understand the allure, and because he doesn't swallow the Kool-Aid on command, he's getting ganged up on like a child molester in prison. Anybody else see the flaw in this? A bunch of people who like a light-hearted, silly product, bashing one guy over the head because he doesn't get the joke? Way to go, guys. This'll make him so open-minded. Jed Shaffer ~I don't get CHIKARA either, Boku. You're not alone. No one's ganging up on anyone. He asked us to explain the appeal, and when we did, he came up with more arguments for why he doesn't like it, which we rebutted. It's an argument, where he happens to be in the minority. No one's flamed him, no one's said his opinion is wrong, we've respected his and tried to explain it to him, and I like to think he's respected ours. No need to get so defensive because someone posted an opinion of ROH.
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Brain Of F'n J
Hank Scorpio
Not that cool enough to have one of these....wait.
We Discodians must stick apart.
Posts: 6,890
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Post by Brain Of F'n J on Nov 21, 2007 15:36:43 GMT -5
Nice generalization there. Maybe, like you prefer a promotion that is light-hearted and over-the-top, we "hardcore ROH fans" prefer a wrestling promotion that treats it like a sport. Not everyone has to march in the same parade. Boku is trying to say he's playing devil's advocate and trying to understand the allure, and because he doesn't swallow the Kool-Aid on command, he's getting ganged up on like a child molester in prison. Anybody else see the flaw in this? A bunch of people who like a light-hearted, silly product, bashing one guy over the head because he doesn't get the joke? Way to go, guys. This'll make him so open-minded. Jed Shaffer ~I don't get CHIKARA either, Boku. You're not alone. No one's ganging up on anyone. He asked us to explain the appeal, and when we did, he came up with more arguments for why he doesn't like it, which we rebutted. It's an argument, where he happens to be in the minority. No one's flamed him, no one's said his opinion is wrong, we've respected his and tried to explain it to him, and I like to think he's respected ours. No need to get so defensive because someone posted an opinion of ROH. Being in the extreme minority, and having a bunch of people saying, in effect, "You're dumb for not understanding, you're making dumb comparisons" would be the definition of "ganging up". You're not right just because you're a majority. If he doesn't get it, that's fine, it's his opinion ... but he's not likely to want to take another swing at it if everyone keeps harping on him like he's the only kid on the team who can't seem to hit a curveball. I know if I was in Boku's shoes here, I'd feel like I got ganged up on. Maybe he doesn't. If not, hey, good for him. But go back and re-read the past 8 pages, not as yourself, but as a neutral party. See how it reads out. The ROH thing didn't set me off; it's that, in the span of 8 pages, I've seen few examples of someone trying to explain the appeal from anything other then a condescending or ultra-fanboyish point of view. There has been little attempt to educate, and an abundance of people saying he's wrong for not getting the humor. That's my opinion. If you think otherwise, fantastic. However, the generalization about ROH was unnecessary and tangential to the primary topic of CHIKARA's allure. And it was a tad hypocritical, since it embodieed the same aspect he was accusing ROHbots of: elitism. Jed Shaffer ~It's like someone attacked everybody's children, the way everyone's leaping to the defensive. I thought CHIKARA was light-hearted.
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Post by Spankymac is sick of the swiss on Nov 21, 2007 15:42:53 GMT -5
No one's ganging up on anyone. He asked us to explain the appeal, and when we did, he came up with more arguments for why he doesn't like it, which we rebutted. It's an argument, where he happens to be in the minority. No one's flamed him, no one's said his opinion is wrong, we've respected his and tried to explain it to him, and I like to think he's respected ours. No need to get so defensive because someone posted an opinion of ROH. Being in the extreme minority, and having a bunch of people saying, in effect, "You're dumb for not understanding, you're making dumb comparisons" would be the definition of "ganging up". You're not right just because you're a majority. If he doesn't get it, that's fine, it's his opinion ... but he's not likely to want to take another swing at it if everyone keeps harping on him like he's the only kid on the team who can't seem to hit a curveball. I know if I was in Boku's shoes here, I'd feel like I got ganged up on. Maybe he doesn't. If not, hey, good for him. But go back and re-read the past 8 pages, not as yourself, but as a neutral party. See how it reads out. The ROH thing didn't set me off; it's that, in the span of 8 pages, I've seen few examples of someone trying to explain the appeal from anything other then a condescending or ultra-fanboyish point of view. There has been little attempt to educate, and an abundance of people saying he's wrong for not getting the humor. That's my opinion. If you think otherwise, fantastic. However, the generalization about ROH was unnecessary and tangential to the primary topic of CHIKARA's allure. And it was a tad hypocritical, since it embodieed the same aspect he was accusing ROHbots of: elitism. Jed Shaffer ~It's like someone attacked everybody's children, the way everyone's leaping to the defensive. I thought CHIKARA was light-hearted. Again, I've seen no one call him dumb, or be "ultra-fanboyish" as you put it. He asked us why we like Chikara when we don't like some of WWE's ridiculousness, and we explained that the comparison wasn't apt, some better than others. And we're leaping to the "defensive" because we're basically being asked to explain why we love what we love, and what the appeal of it is, when the person asking is calling it "lame and unfunny", which to me, which to me was the only real "attack"-like thing I saw anyone post until you posted, that includes mine, MGH's, HMark's, and the rest of Boku's. This was a pretty respectful conversation until you felt the need to "defend" DGG.
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The OP
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
changed his name
Posts: 15,785
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Post by The OP on Nov 21, 2007 16:03:41 GMT -5
At least we've made it throught 8 pages without the use of this emoticon: Unless I missed it.
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Post by Spankymac is sick of the swiss on Nov 21, 2007 16:04:56 GMT -5
At least we've made it throught 8 pages without the use of this emoticon: Unless I missed it. Thankfully, I think that little baby did miss the party.
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Post by mysterydriver on Nov 21, 2007 16:07:24 GMT -5
At least we've made it throught 8 pages without the use of this emoticon: Unless I missed it. Not that you could miss anything. ...
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Post by I'm The Cool One on Nov 21, 2007 17:22:34 GMT -5
No one's ganging up on anyone. He asked us to explain the appeal, and when we did, he came up with more arguments for why he doesn't like it, which we rebutted. It's an argument, where he happens to be in the minority. No one's flamed him, no one's said his opinion is wrong, we've respected his and tried to explain it to him, and I like to think he's respected ours. No need to get so defensive because someone posted an opinion of ROH. Being in the extreme minority, and having a bunch of people saying, in effect, "You're dumb for not understanding, you're making dumb comparisons" would be the definition of "ganging up". You're not right just because you're a majority. If he doesn't get it, that's fine, it's his opinion ... but he's not likely to want to take another swing at it if everyone keeps harping on him like he's the only kid on the team who can't seem to hit a curveball. I know if I was in Boku's shoes here, I'd feel like I got ganged up on. Maybe he doesn't. If not, hey, good for him. But go back and re-read the past 8 pages, not as yourself, but as a neutral party. See how it reads out. The ROH thing didn't set me off; it's that, in the span of 8 pages, I've seen few examples of someone trying to explain the appeal from anything other then a condescending or ultra-fanboyish point of view. There has been little attempt to educate, and an abundance of people saying he's wrong for not getting the humor. That's my opinion. If you think otherwise, fantastic. However, the generalization about ROH was unnecessary and tangential to the primary topic of CHIKARA's allure. And it was a tad hypocritical, since it embodieed the same aspect he was accusing ROHbots of: elitism. Jed Shaffer ~It's like someone attacked everybody's children, the way everyone's leaping to the defensive. I thought CHIKARA was light-hearted. then maybe you should read the thread as someone who was actually involned in the conversation instead of a neutral party because it seems you're the only one who thought he was being ganged up on... that is simply untrue.
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Mr T L Wolf
Hank Scorpio
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Posts: 5,319
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Post by Mr T L Wolf on Nov 21, 2007 18:37:35 GMT -5
Well, personally, I just like it because it's a breath of fresh air. I've been such a WWE mark since I started watching in '98 that seeing masked guys throwing actual paper bags on each other to prove that cliche, and using sprinkles as a foreign object is great. I love that there's a promotion that's willing to say, "Hey, there's comedy in any other form of entertainment, let's be goofy and light-hearted and bring the families back to professional wrestling!" Personally, I wish WWE would do more actual comedy matches instead of being so stiff and serious about everything. If only Colt Cabana could show people the way, right?
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Post by HMARK Center on Nov 22, 2007 11:25:07 GMT -5
Well, personally, I just like it because it's a breath of fresh air. I've been such a WWE mark since I started watching in '98 that seeing masked guys throwing actual paper bags on each other to prove that cliche, and using sprinkles as a foreign object is great. I love that there's a promotion that's willing to say, "Hey, there's comedy in any other form of entertainment, let's be goofy and light-hearted and bring the families back to professional wrestling!" Personally, I wish WWE would do more actual comedy matches instead of being so stiff and serious about everything. If only Colt Cabana could show people the way, right? Colt really could, since so much of Colt's comedy is physical and takes place during his matches. That's a lost art in a lot of places.
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Post by Tea & Crumpets on Nov 22, 2007 12:11:30 GMT -5
Well, personally, I just like it because it's a breath of fresh air. I've been such a WWE mark since I started watching in '98 that seeing masked guys throwing actual paper bags on each other to prove that cliche, and using sprinkles as a foreign object is great. I love that there's a promotion that's willing to say, "Hey, there's comedy in any other form of entertainment, let's be goofy and light-hearted and bring the families back to professional wrestling!" Personally, I wish WWE would do more actual comedy matches instead of being so stiff and serious about everything. If only Colt Cabana could show people the way, right? I must admit, I do love CHIKRA's family-friendly nature. Makes for fun shows without the swearing or fan aggression. Don't get me wrong, the violence or the passion- such as ROh presenting it as a pure sport, are great, but I love CHIKARA too. I think there's a big market for family-friendly wrestling in the wake of the events of this year. Also, the guys at CHIKARA clearly do everything to please the fans. Case in point: Dorado's injury causes Chapter 11 to be cancelled early and effectively writes off the show. Some promotions would shrug and say "see ya next time". CHIKARA instead go out of their way to satisfy fans, booking an extra last show for the year with free admission. If that isn't catering to the fans, I don't know what is. Another reason I like CHIKARA- unlike WWE at many times, they tend to respect the fans. (Bear in mind, by fans I mean the ones who like the CHIKARA product. Obviously if you don't like their mix of serious/wacky you might not feel respected. But again, they cater to their fans, just as say, ROH in many ways cater to their own fans.)
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Post by joeman on Nov 22, 2007 13:06:48 GMT -5
Respecting their fans still sounds vague to me. How is WWE disrespecting their fans? The majority of them are kids that likes Cena, hence why before his injury he was wrestling non-stop.
WWE caters to different people, hence that is why it is different.
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Post by Tea & Crumpets on Nov 22, 2007 13:57:37 GMT -5
Respecting their fans still sounds vague to me. How is WWE disrespecting their fans? The majority of them are kids that likes Cena, hence why before his injury he was wrestling non-stop. WWE caters to different people, hence that is why it is different. What I mean is respect the fans intelligence. Let's face it, WWE doesnt' do that much. Case in point was Stephanie being so shocked that people could actually work out that Save_Us.222 was Jericho, when she though the only reason we could possibly guess that is because of a leak.
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Post by Panda Bear on Nov 22, 2007 14:18:11 GMT -5
Someone find Funaki because....INDEED! That match was horrible and just not entertaining to me. It completely slowed the show down and actually felt embarassing at the end of it. c'mon you had to love the post match shenanigans
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Post by Near Fantastica on Nov 22, 2007 15:39:10 GMT -5
I don't dig ROH or Chikara or NJPW or NOAH or whathaveyou for varied reasons. They all seem to have a very cultish, elitist following almost to the point where you don't feel welcome as a new fan. For the most part however I don't like the production or any of the rosters and that's kind of important, you know?
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Post by mysterydriver on Nov 22, 2007 15:44:59 GMT -5
Someone find Funaki because....INDEED! That match was horrible and just not entertaining to me. It completely slowed the show down and actually felt embarassing at the end of it. c'mon you had to love the post match shenanigans The dancing? That just made it much, much worse...ugh. *Shudders*
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