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Post by joeman on Dec 2, 2007 17:02:52 GMT -5
Lastly, all because someone isn't good in a craft doesn't mean he has no say how to better improve your craft. A unsuccessful business man for example can say a great business man is the one who bullshits all the time, and the reason why he isn't successful because he is an honest guy. Saying Disco Inferno is a sub-par wrestler doesn't mean his opinions is invalid.
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Post by kittylimits on Dec 2, 2007 17:25:58 GMT -5
It's annoying to watch matches that have no purpose or story. That's why I'm one of the rare people who don't mind an episode of Raw or something that doesn't have that my matches. Save 'em for the PPV.
And it's on the PPV that there will be enough time for the matches to be more than a spot fest with no selling.
It's the difference between wrestling and MMA sometimes, is that wrestling can seem so acrobat and choreographed. Without the story, which is part of the selling, it's boring, because, quite frankly, how many damn times can you see flipppy floppy moves without them getting overdone?
I agree with Disco Inferno, and I don't give a crap that it was Disco that said this.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2007 18:17:35 GMT -5
I love how some people just disregard this as "Who cares what Disco Inferno has to say!" instead of looking at the points he makes. Now, others have actually made decent points against his arguments, but disregarding it because it was wrote by Disco is just...childish. In fact, you're probably making yourself look worse. If Disco isn't allowed to criticize...then why should you be? You're just a fan. He was in the business. See my point? Well, I don't give a crap what 95% of what people on the net say either. Saying Internet fans don't know what they're talking about is fine. But saying they're "Ruining the Business" is ridiculous. Crappy matches, stupid storylines, bland characters. Nope, it's 15 year olds on the net, who are destroying wrestling as we know it.
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Reverend BTY
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Post by Reverend BTY on Dec 2, 2007 18:25:56 GMT -5
98 WWF midcarders had 3 minute triple threat matches weekly??? I so don't remember this time period. You must have. They always shoved makeshift teams together and the average match on RAW in 1998-1999 was roughly 3 minutes. Don't believe me? A segment under 3 minutes and it got 14 people over, a title over, and planted the seeds for a major storyline. If this isn't enough proof, argue against me and I'll pull out a 2:19 match with Jeff Jarrett & Debra vs Ivory and D'Lo that got all of them over, plus Mark Henry. Credit goes to Slash Wrestling/CRZ. Nope, still don't remember.
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Post by Gillberg: 0-175 on Dec 2, 2007 19:10:29 GMT -5
You must have. They always shoved makeshift teams together and the average match on RAW in 1998-1999 was roughly 3 minutes. Don't believe me? A segment under 3 minutes and it got 14 people over, a title over, and planted the seeds for a major storyline. If this isn't enough proof, argue against me and I'll pull out a 2:19 match with Jeff Jarrett & Debra vs Ivory and D'Lo that got all of them over, plus Mark Henry. Credit goes to Slash Wrestling/CRZ. Nope, still don't remember. Did you watching wrestling in 1998? I don't think you did. They managed to get EVERYONE over in the short amount of time they actually wrestled. Look up stats, some shows only had 27 minutes of wrestling bell-to-bell. So saying that you can't get 4 guys over in a 3 minute match with only one or two spots is wrong. Besides, it's those one or two spots that make the guy. Match length doesn't matter. If you have a guy who's doing finisher after finisher after finisher it devalues all the moves. These X Division matches need to have planchas and hurricanranas and powerbombs but need to save the 450s and coast-to-coast moves for a major spot. They do all look like spot monkeys, and when they don't sell any of the moves it makes the move look weak. Sonjay Dutt did a nice 450 on Impact this week but I didn't give a shit because nothing became of it. Those kind of moves need to be pampered and taken care of to make them impactful.
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AriadosMan
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Post by AriadosMan on Dec 2, 2007 19:10:40 GMT -5
I actually like jobber squishes as long as they're part of a larger story (someone's heel turn, showing what a jerk x wrestler is by having him squish a hometown hero).
I also mark for heels who cleanly beat faces, it makes them look all the more evil if they can win by their own ability instead of by stupid interference.
The internet ruined "the business" in that it killed the sense of surprise attached to it. Now big events like the Jericho return can easily be predicted. Even ten years ago the "smarkweb" wasn't that good at calling things.
Maybe that's why so many critics (Meltzer, for example) got bored with wrestling and moved to MMA.
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Post by Gillberg: 0-175 on Dec 2, 2007 19:14:46 GMT -5
I actually like jobber squishes as long as they're part of a larger story (someone's heel turn, showing what a jerk x wrestler is by having him squish a hometown hero). I also mark for heels who cleanly beat faces, it makes them look all the more evil if they can win by their own ability instead of by stupid interference. The internet ruined "the business" in that it killed the sense of surprise attached to it. Now big events like the Jericho return can easily be predicted. Even ten years ago the "smarkweb" wasn't that good at calling things. Maybe that's why so many critics (Meltzer, for example) got bored with wrestling and moved to MMA. I think the Pro Wrestling industry needs to be able to hold secrets better. Also, I think they need more live events, because I can tell you first hand I will not watch something that's taped, because I'd rather go out drinking or to a party or with a girl than spend 2 hours watching something that takes 3 minutes to read.
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Post by GaTechGrad on Dec 2, 2007 19:39:52 GMT -5
Did Disco sell for 8 seconds when Abyss squashed him on Impact a few weeks ago?
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Hiroshi Hase
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on Dec 2, 2007 19:40:59 GMT -5
Did Disco sell for 8 seconds when Abyss squashed him on Impact a few weeks ago? I think he sold longer than that if I recall, he didn't flip up to his feet or anything.
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Samoa Kenny
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Post by Samoa Kenny on Dec 2, 2007 20:11:46 GMT -5
That's the business I was referring to about the business, or was it a different business There's no business like big show business. It' business... it's business time
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Post by GaTechGrad on Dec 2, 2007 20:44:33 GMT -5
Disco and Lance Storm should form a tag team with an anti-smark gimmick.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2007 20:51:04 GMT -5
I like how he mentions Joe and A.J. Styles at the end. Joe wrestles a style heavily influenced by Japanese wrestling, a style Disco lambasted earlier and A.J. wrestled an almost pure spot oriented style for years. As for selling, with all due respect to both Joe and A.J., they aren't the greatest sellers out there.
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Reverend BTY
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Post by Reverend BTY on Dec 2, 2007 21:23:22 GMT -5
Nope, still don't remember. Did you watching wrestling in 1998? I don't think you did. They managed to get EVERYONE over in the short amount of time they actually wrestled. Look up stats, some shows only had 27 minutes of wrestling bell-to-bell. So saying that you can't get 4 guys over in a 3 minute match with only one or two spots is wrong. Besides, it's those one or two spots that make the guy. Match length doesn't matter. If you have a guy who's doing finisher after finisher after finisher it devalues all the moves. These X Division matches need to have planchas and hurricanranas and powerbombs but need to save the 450s and coast-to-coast moves for a major spot. They do all look like spot monkeys, and when they don't sell any of the moves it makes the move look weak. Sonjay Dutt did a nice 450 on Impact this week but I didn't give a crap because nothing became of it. Those kind of moves need to be pampered and taken care of to make them impactful. No I watched. The thing is, there are only so many things to remember. Why the hell should I remember Test/Bossman/Bull Buchanan vs Too cool or some shit when I can remember crucifixtions in wrestling. The forgettable vs something terribly cool. That's what it comes down to.
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Dec 2, 2007 22:53:10 GMT -5
i loved jimmys early brody style gimmick I too, I thought it was awesome... I stopped reading after he bashed Jacobs. God damn, he can't even spell Huss right! As did I.
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Post by TripleMerc on Dec 2, 2007 23:56:03 GMT -5
Here's kinda what I got.
"It's the internet's fault, no, it's the people who can't sell, no, it's WCW, no, it's marks no it's Goldberg no it's the internet again, no it's-Hey, where did my frontal lobe go, I seem to have misplaced it."
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Post by I'm The Cool One on Dec 3, 2007 2:07:53 GMT -5
Nope, still don't remember. Did you watching wrestling in 1998? I don't think you did. They managed to get EVERYONE over in the short amount of time they actually wrestled. Look up stats, some shows only had 27 minutes of wrestling bell-to-bell. So saying that you can't get 4 guys over in a 3 minute match with only one or two spots is wrong. Besides, it's those one or two spots that make the guy. Match length doesn't matter. If you have a guy who's doing finisher after finisher after finisher it devalues all the moves. These X Division matches need to have planchas and hurricanranas and powerbombs but need to save the 450s and coast-to-coast moves for a major spot. They do all look like spot monkeys, and when they don't sell any of the moves it makes the move look weak. Sonjay Dutt did a nice 450 on Impact this week but I didn't give a crap because nothing became of it. Those kind of moves need to be pampered and taken care of to make them impactful. what nobody is seeing or saying other than me is the fact that the business is f***ing changing! and it has changed since 1998. in 98 you could throw a steaming pile of monkey shit in the ring against a few guys with good gimmicks and the monkey shit would be over like grover! just look at mark henry! he's a perfect example of how the business has changed. he was hella over during the attitude era, on his size and strength alone. now they try to give him that gimmick and he couldnt get over if vince brainwashed the crowd! the business has changed, it's not the attitude era anymore... i agree that the x guys need to sell more. they dont need to kill themselves every nigt to be over. but i also think glen gilberti is simply not someone who should have any say whatsoever on what good wrestling is. the guy is not a good worker. as a matter of fact, i've never seen him wrestle one match that actually stood out in my mind as "wow that was a great match!"... disco inferno is becoming one of those grumpy old-timers who is going to just complain about the new guys because they have changed the business to suit the fans likes and dislikes and they've made wrestlers like disco inferno completely useless. and he's pissed about it. THAT is why i feel his opinion is invalid to me... he's biased.
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Post by Cap'n Crud on Dec 3, 2007 2:37:24 GMT -5
Like Jerry said time marches on and the fans' tastes change. Look at the attitude era for example. Brash, cocky, guys like The Rock and RVD would have been booed out of the building by fans during the Rock n' Wrestling era but in the Attitude Era they were among the top faces of their companies. Fans had grown tired of the goody two shoes, overgrown boy scouts of the Hogan era.
Nowadays a lot of fans wanna see high spots, they want planchas and 450 splashes. Try a whole match doing moves like The Abdominal Stretch, the Hammerlock, and the Million Dollar Dream nowadays and you'll kill almost any crowd. Also unlike the Hogan era, fans these days aren't impressed by 7 foot 8 foot 9 foot or whatever giants anymore. The times changed and whether Glenny likes it or not wrestling is a Darwinian business. You evolve or you die.
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on Dec 3, 2007 6:40:26 GMT -5
Like Jerry said time marches on and the fans' tastes change. Look at the attitude era for example. Brash, cocky, guys like The Rock and RVD would have been booed out of the building by fans during the Rock n' Wrestling era but in the Attitude Era they were among the top faces of their companies. Fans had grown tired of the goody two shoes, overgrown boy scouts of the Hogan era. Nowadays a lot of fans wanna see high spots, they want planchas and 450 splashes. Try a whole match doing moves like The Abdominal Stretch, the Hammerlock, and the Million Dollar Dream nowadays and you'll kill almost any crowd. Also unlike the Hogan era, fans these days aren't impressed by 7 foot 8 foot 9 foot or whatever giants anymore. The times changed and whether Glenny likes it or not wrestling is a Darwinian business. You evolve or you die. I dunno, I've seen a few Londrick matches and they did all these highspots and the crowd couldn't give a crap.
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Post by I'm The Cool One on Dec 3, 2007 8:53:47 GMT -5
Like Jerry said time marches on and the fans' tastes change. Look at the attitude era for example. Brash, cocky, guys like The Rock and RVD would have been booed out of the building by fans during the Rock n' Wrestling era but in the Attitude Era they were among the top faces of their companies. Fans had grown tired of the goody two shoes, overgrown boy scouts of the Hogan era. Nowadays a lot of fans wanna see high spots, they want planchas and 450 splashes. Try a whole match doing moves like The Abdominal Stretch, the Hammerlock, and the Million Dollar Dream nowadays and you'll kill almost any crowd. Also unlike the Hogan era, fans these days aren't impressed by 7 foot 8 foot 9 foot or whatever giants anymore. The times changed and whether Glenny likes it or not wrestling is a Darwinian business. You evolve or you die. I dunno, I've seen a few Londrick matches and they did all these highspots and the crowd couldn't give a crap. that's very true. and that brings up another great point. during the attitude era, a majority of the fans enjoyed the same thing... the storylines in the main event on both shows were so brilliant, that THAT is what the fans came to see. i'm not saying it's not possible, but i am saying you'd find a minority of the crowds at the shows that would be there to see the cruiserweights (WCW) or the val venis/kaientai feud (WWF).. Most everyone was interested in the same thing... Austin/McMahon and nWo. Those cutting edge storylines, along with the cool merchendise pulled in three different types of fans... 1. The "Fair Weather Fan" - These were the cats that were watching wrestling because it was the cool thing to do. As soon as wrestling was no longer "stylish" to watch, they abandon it.... Jerks. 2. The "New Fan" - these were the guys that tuned in, much for the same reasons the fair weather fans did... It was the cool thing to do. Unlike the fair weather fan, these fans got hooked on the crack. they found something that continued to interest them even after people stopped wearing those cool WWF shirts with the cuss words on them. 3. And last but not least, The "Die Hard Fan" - These are the folks who were already fans. They were going to watch the show no matter what anyway... But now with the great storylines and pretty damn fine workers, watching RAW became a MUST. Now you go through these fan groups in 1998 and ask them what they came to see, and just try to count the guys that would yell "I CAME TO SEE SILVER KING VS LIZMARK JR!!!! WOOOOOOO!!!! YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!" I can guess there was a very low count on that survey, Scott Hall... Now, flash forward to 2007... We're left with two of those three groups (which is why wrestling's ratings aren't what they were ten years ago). We're left with the New Fan, and the Die Hard Fan. By this time, they've both combined into the same category. They are now both Die Hard Fans. So technically we're only left with one of those groups from the Attitude Era... Now we're still getting the "New Fan" in the form of children and other assorted people who are getting turned on to wrestling in a new era. Now, walk through that same line at a RAW that you walked through in 1998 and take that same survey... "What are you here to see?" You're going to get the occasional smark, or simply a fan or two that are there TO SEE Londrik vs Highlanders. But for the most part, fans are there to see the progression of the current storylines... Now walk through a line at an Impact taping... Ask those cats what they're there to see... I guaren-goddamn-tee you're going to get more "I'm here to see the X-Division" type answers than you are "EVRY BODY KNOOOOWWWW... WANTS TO KNOW HOO IAM HERE TO SEEEE... BIG POPPA PUMP!" answers. There is a seperation between the promotions... And all they guys who enjoyed the cruiserweights during the attitude era have migrated to the X-Division... TNA built their company on the X-Division... TNA put something out there that people are really enjoying, and thats... You guessed it... The X-Division... Th point of all this (i knew I get to one of those "point" things sooner or later) is that yes, there are MAD Kendrik/London/ etc matches in which they cannot get over. The reason for that is they are practicing their craft in the WRONG forum! They are trying to get an X-Division style over in the WWE... Where the fans did NOT come to see them... you stick those spotty f***s in TNA, and they'd be over like Russell Stover's. You can't put a guy who makes GREAT McDonald's hamburgers into a TGIFriday's and expect top tier burgers... Just like you can't put someone who is fantastic at the X-Division style into a match where they are limited in what they can do, in front of fans who are there hoping that the mid card would just go away so they can see what Cena will do next, and expect those guys to get the pop of the night... Just not going to happen. And that is simply more proof that the business has changed... Now days you have to be a friggin charisma MACHINE in order to get over in WWE's mid card... you have to be a Santino Marella, or a Mr. Kennedy, or a gimmick that just kinda catches (Hornswoggle, anyone?). In the attitude era, people were so amped up to see Austin/McMahon that they would cheer ANYTHING in the mid card (almost). Now days, people are going to s*** on the mid in WWE card no matter what (almost)... But you head over to TNA, and it's a totally different story! People want to see that high flying spot-monkery... Bah, I'm rambling... So I'm just going to make my point and make it short here... It's hard for Londrik to get over in WWE because they simply arent WWE type guys. the fans there aren't looking to watch a Londrik match. In WWE they'd be great, because thats what fans are looking for.... the business has changed. theres a seperation between fans right now. Everyone no longer wants to see the same thing... We've all got different tastes... Therefor, Glen Gillberti can't blame the internet fans for ruining the business... It's simply natural progression that people are going to look for something new. And the X-Division provides that something new...
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Post by acressl on Dec 3, 2007 9:35:25 GMT -5
The internet hurts everything it touches. Or rather, takes the mystique out of just about everything. If you've the will to figure something out now, you can with the magic of the internet. Spoilers and such.
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