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Post by Gillberg: 0-175 on Dec 3, 2007 11:44:40 GMT -5
I dunno, I've seen a few Londrick matches and they did all these highspots and the crowd couldn't give a crap. that's very true. and that brings up another great point. during the attitude era, a majority of the fans enjoyed the same thing... the storylines in the main event on both shows were so brilliant, that THAT is what the fans came to see. i'm not saying it's not possible, but i am saying you'd find a minority of the crowds at the shows that would be there to see the cruiserweights (WCW) or the val venis/kaientai feud (WWF).. Most everyone was interested in the same thing... Austin/McMahon and nWo. Those cutting edge storylines, along with the cool merchendise pulled in three different types of fans... 1. The "Fair Weather Fan" - These were the cats that were watching wrestling because it was the cool thing to do. As soon as wrestling was no longer "stylish" to watch, they abandon it.... Jerks. 2. The "New Fan" - these were the guys that tuned in, much for the same reasons the fair weather fans did... It was the cool thing to do. Unlike the fair weather fan, these fans got hooked on the crack. they found something that continued to interest them even after people stopped wearing those cool WWF shirts with the cuss words on them. 3. And last but not least, The "Die Hard Fan" - These are the folks who were already fans. They were going to watch the show no matter what anyway... But now with the great storylines and pretty damn fine workers, watching RAW became a MUST. Now you go through these fan groups in 1998 and ask them what they came to see, and just try to count the guys that would yell "I CAME TO SEE SILVER KING VS LIZMARK JR!!!! WOOOOOOO!!!! YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!" I can guess there was a very low count on that survey, Scott Hall... Now, flash forward to 2007... We're left with two of those three groups (which is why wrestling's ratings aren't what they were ten years ago). We're left with the New Fan, and the Die Hard Fan. By this time, they've both combined into the same category. They are now both Die Hard Fans. So technically we're only left with one of those groups from the Attitude Era... Now we're still getting the "New Fan" in the form of children and other assorted people who are getting turned on to wrestling in a new era. Now, walk through that same line at a RAW that you walked through in 1998 and take that same survey... "What are you here to see?" You're going to get the occasional smark, or simply a fan or two that are there TO SEE Londrik vs Highlanders. But for the most part, fans are there to see the progression of the current storylines... Now walk through a line at an Impact taping... Ask those cats what they're there to see... I guaren-goddamn-tee you're going to get more "I'm here to see the X-Division" type answers than you are "EVRY BODY KNOOOOWWWW... WANTS TO KNOW HOO IAM HERE TO SEEEE... BIG POPPA PUMP!" answers. There is a seperation between the promotions... And all they guys who enjoyed the cruiserweights during the attitude era have migrated to the X-Division... TNA built their company on the X-Division... TNA put something out there that people are really enjoying, and thats... You guessed it... The X-Division... Th point of all this (i knew I get to one of those "point" things sooner or later) is that yes, there are MAD Kendrik/London/ etc matches in which they cannot get over. The reason for that is they are practicing their craft in the WRONG forum! They are trying to get an X-Division style over in the WWE... Where the fans did NOT come to see them... you stick those spotty f***s in TNA, and they'd be over like Russell Stover's. You can't put a guy who makes GREAT McDonald's hamburgers into a TGIFriday's and expect top tier burgers... Just like you can't put someone who is fantastic at the X-Division style into a match where they are limited in what they can do, in front of fans who are there hoping that the mid card would just go away so they can see what Cena will do next, and expect those guys to get the pop of the night... Just not going to happen. And that is simply more proof that the business has changed... Now days you have to be a friggin charisma MACHINE in order to get over in WWE's mid card... you have to be a Santino Marella, or a Mr. Kennedy, or a gimmick that just kinda catches (Hornswoggle, anyone?). In the attitude era, people were so amped up to see Austin/McMahon that they would cheer ANYTHING in the mid card (almost). Now days, people are going to s*** on the mid in WWE card no matter what (almost)... But you head over to TNA, and it's a totally different story! People want to see that high flying spot-monkery... Bah, I'm rambling... So I'm just going to make my point and make it short here... It's hard for Londrik to get over in WWE because they simply arent WWE type guys. the fans there aren't looking to watch a Londrik match. In WWE they'd be great, because thats what fans are looking for.... the business has changed. theres a seperation between fans right now. Everyone no longer wants to see the same thing... We've all got different tastes... Therefor, Glen Gillberti can't blame the internet fans for ruining the business... It's simply natural progression that people are going to look for something new. And the X-Division provides that something new... You're absolutely correct. This fact has not been brought up. However, I still stand by my decision that the X Division spot monkeys need to limit their spots so that when they do do a spot its something spectacular instead of the norm. It's kinda like having sex with your girlfriend. At first, it's a rarity and you enjoy it so much. By the time you're doing it 4-5 times a week it's nothing special anymore, and you're constintly looking for ways to switch it up and make it more exciting. X Division matches feel like an old girlfriend. I know exactly what they are going to do and when, so that element of suprise and suspense isn't there. It's just like a daily routine.
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Post by legendary616 on Dec 3, 2007 12:13:49 GMT -5
Lets just put it like this
f*** YOU DISCO!!!!!!!!!
Dont tell me im ruining wrestling, espesially when you have done nothing to improve the bussiness either, if someone with credibilty wrote this i would have taken it another way, this is just another pissed off ex wrestler
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Chainsaw
T
A very BAD man.
It is what it is
Posts: 90,480
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Post by Chainsaw on Dec 3, 2007 12:26:41 GMT -5
The irony of Gilbretti posting this on the internet still cracks me up.
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Post by drjayphd (feat. Pitbull) on Dec 3, 2007 12:28:44 GMT -5
Lastly, all because someone isn't good in a craft doesn't mean he has no say how to better improve your craft. A unsuccessful business man for example can say a great business man is the one who bullcraps all the time, and the reason why he isn't successful because he is an honest guy. Saying Disco Inferno is a sub-par wrestler doesn't mean his opinions is invalid. If anything, he could be more knowledgeable, even if only by example: "don't be that guy". But I still agree that he more'n likely knows more about wrestling than anyone here, just because he's been in the business.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Dec 3, 2007 14:54:09 GMT -5
I am with him on selling properly and NOTHING ELSE.
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Post by I'm The Cool One on Dec 3, 2007 15:20:09 GMT -5
that's very true. and that brings up another great point. during the attitude era, a majority of the fans enjoyed the same thing... the storylines in the main event on both shows were so brilliant, that THAT is what the fans came to see. i'm not saying it's not possible, but i am saying you'd find a minority of the crowds at the shows that would be there to see the cruiserweights (WCW) or the val venis/kaientai feud (WWF).. Most everyone was interested in the same thing... Austin/McMahon and nWo. Those cutting edge storylines, along with the cool merchendise pulled in three different types of fans... 1. The "Fair Weather Fan" - These were the cats that were watching wrestling because it was the cool thing to do. As soon as wrestling was no longer "stylish" to watch, they abandon it.... Jerks. 2. The "New Fan" - these were the guys that tuned in, much for the same reasons the fair weather fans did... It was the cool thing to do. Unlike the fair weather fan, these fans got hooked on the crack. they found something that continued to interest them even after people stopped wearing those cool WWF shirts with the cuss words on them. 3. And last but not least, The "Die Hard Fan" - These are the folks who were already fans. They were going to watch the show no matter what anyway... But now with the great storylines and pretty damn fine workers, watching RAW became a MUST. Now you go through these fan groups in 1998 and ask them what they came to see, and just try to count the guys that would yell "I CAME TO SEE SILVER KING VS LIZMARK JR!!!! WOOOOOOO!!!! YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!" I can guess there was a very low count on that survey, Scott Hall... Now, flash forward to 2007... We're left with two of those three groups (which is why wrestling's ratings aren't what they were ten years ago). We're left with the New Fan, and the Die Hard Fan. By this time, they've both combined into the same category. They are now both Die Hard Fans. So technically we're only left with one of those groups from the Attitude Era... Now we're still getting the "New Fan" in the form of children and other assorted people who are getting turned on to wrestling in a new era. Now, walk through that same line at a RAW that you walked through in 1998 and take that same survey... "What are you here to see?" You're going to get the occasional smark, or simply a fan or two that are there TO SEE Londrik vs Highlanders. But for the most part, fans are there to see the progression of the current storylines... Now walk through a line at an Impact taping... Ask those cats what they're there to see... I guaren-goddamn-tee you're going to get more "I'm here to see the X-Division" type answers than you are "EVRY BODY KNOOOOWWWW... WANTS TO KNOW HOO IAM HERE TO SEEEE... BIG POPPA PUMP!" answers. There is a seperation between the promotions... And all they guys who enjoyed the cruiserweights during the attitude era have migrated to the X-Division... TNA built their company on the X-Division... TNA put something out there that people are really enjoying, and thats... You guessed it... The X-Division... Th point of all this (i knew I get to one of those "point" things sooner or later) is that yes, there are MAD Kendrik/London/ etc matches in which they cannot get over. The reason for that is they are practicing their craft in the WRONG forum! They are trying to get an X-Division style over in the WWE... Where the fans did NOT come to see them... you stick those spotty f***s in TNA, and they'd be over like Russell Stover's. You can't put a guy who makes GREAT McDonald's hamburgers into a TGIFriday's and expect top tier burgers... Just like you can't put someone who is fantastic at the X-Division style into a match where they are limited in what they can do, in front of fans who are there hoping that the mid card would just go away so they can see what Cena will do next, and expect those guys to get the pop of the night... Just not going to happen. And that is simply more proof that the business has changed... Now days you have to be a friggin charisma MACHINE in order to get over in WWE's mid card... you have to be a Santino Marella, or a Mr. Kennedy, or a gimmick that just kinda catches (Hornswoggle, anyone?). In the attitude era, people were so amped up to see Austin/McMahon that they would cheer ANYTHING in the mid card (almost). Now days, people are going to s*** on the mid in WWE card no matter what (almost)... But you head over to TNA, and it's a totally different story! People want to see that high flying spot-monkery... Bah, I'm rambling... So I'm just going to make my point and make it short here... It's hard for Londrik to get over in WWE because they simply arent WWE type guys. the fans there aren't looking to watch a Londrik match. In WWE they'd be great, because thats what fans are looking for.... the business has changed. theres a seperation between fans right now. Everyone no longer wants to see the same thing... We've all got different tastes... Therefor, Glen Gillberti can't blame the internet fans for ruining the business... It's simply natural progression that people are going to look for something new. And the X-Division provides that something new... You're absolutely correct. This fact has not been brought up. However, I still stand by my decision that the X Division spot monkeys need to limit their spots so that when they do do a spot its something spectacular instead of the norm. It's kinda like having sex with your girlfriend. At first, it's a rarity and you enjoy it so much. By the time you're doing it 4-5 times a week it's nothing special anymore, and you're constintly looking for ways to switch it up and make it more exciting. X Division matches feel like an old girlfriend. I know exactly what they are going to do and when, so that element of suprise and suspense isn't there. It's just like a daily routine. and i completely agree with you on that fact. what i'm trying to say is that the industry has changed... i'm not necessarily saying its a good thing, but thats simply how it is untill the fans can be re-educated... much like raven said in his shoot, a plancha should mean something as opposeed to being just another move in someone's moveset.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2007 15:27:24 GMT -5
I wonder if wrestlers thought the same thing when guys like Apter and Meltzer started their magazines. Disco rambles on too much for me to see his big point, plus he rails against "spot monkeys" and the Japanese style of wrestling while praising Styles and Joe at the end... I mean, that makes me laugh. Name another wrestler who is as influenced by puroresu as Samoa Joe and name me a wrestler who is as big a spot monkey or has been as big as a spot monkey as A.J. I think its funny that Disco blasts guys for chopping each other/ elbowing each other for minutes at a time and then praises Joe... who's done that with the likes of Kobashi and Low Ki.
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Post by hollywood on Dec 3, 2007 16:01:38 GMT -5
I haven't read everyone's responses, but I did read the article. And I don't agree with it at all. If the IWF's who only like high-flying bouts that follow the "8 second rule" are such a strong influence, how did guys like Bryan Danielson, Austin Aires, Roderick Strong, and Nigel McGuinness get as over as they are?
I also tend to think the internet has helped wrestling FAR more than it's hurt it. Without the internet, promotions like ROH, PWG, Chikara and others would've never reached the audience they have. In fact, I'm tempted to say that the only real thing that prevented Vince McMahon from truly monopolizing the industry was the internet.
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Post by Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby on Dec 8, 2007 17:46:40 GMT -5
Jimmy Jacobs gave a hilarious response to this in an interview with 411's Garoon and Ziegler at thecoolkidstable.mypodcast.com/. He's watching the match around the 14-17 minute mark and really going off on how unfounded Disco's criticisms are (and that the criticisms may apply to a match that he had with Chris Sabin a few months earlier). Some of his comments that I enjoyed: "Oooh! A sunset flip! Yeah, every high spot EVER!" "Man, we did NOTHING in this match."
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Post by Panda Bear on Dec 9, 2007 0:45:46 GMT -5
Jimmy Jacobs gave a hilarious response to this in an interview with 411's Garoon and Ziegler at thecoolkidstable.mypodcast.com/. He's watching the match around the 14-17 minute mark and really going off on how unfounded Disco's criticisms are (and that the criticisms may apply to a match that he had with Chris Sabin a few months earlier). Some of his comments that I enjoyed: "Oooh! A sunset flip! Yeah, every high spot EVER!" "Man, we did NOTHING in this match." JIMMY IS THE MAN... and The Substitute Teacher
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Post by ndhalogod on Dec 9, 2007 2:32:15 GMT -5
Let's try debunking Disco's logic instead of just arguing with his opinions.
First of all, why should we concede the initial premise? There are plenty of smarks who like older style booking, didn't think 80% of ECW was good, and blame AOL-TW as much for the fall of WCW as Russo's pole matches and inane booking. Him lumping all IWF's into a mindless group is just as incomplete as any other stereotype and really lacks foundation. Simply put, every fan is different, internet or otherwise.
It's difficult to get your 3 best spots in when you're given 4 minutes to wrestle. The cause of no-selling is not inherently IWFs, it could be lack of time, shoddy opponents, or inexperience.
The fact that they based huge values and beliefs on what a group of 12 people in a relatively narrow demographic said is hilarious. Anyone who's ever talked to a group of people or even flipping a coin 10-12 times would realize this is not a sufficient sample size to base any hard evidence on, let alone decisions that are costing public corporations $100mil+.
Let's look at guys he sees in the business who've made a ton of money. Goldberg, Hogan, Stone Cold, Undertaker, Kevin Nash, Triple H, and Roddy Piper. Wow, the first thing that comes to my mind is "THOSE GUYS SELL!" Or maybe these people are just big characters who luckily mirror real life personalities and have been pushed ridiculously hard for decades?
The reason Goldberg "looked real" is because he was really tackling, punching, kicking and injuring wrestlers. Wrestling is SUPPOSED to be "SCRIPTED ACROBATICS." A frequently unmentioned cause of WCW's downfall was repeated injuries to top guys, largely based on stiff/sloppy working.
What "subliminal education?" Is it not equally possible than the business is different now or that the wrestling fans in general who haven't abandoned ship for UFC, boxing, or adulthood want to actually see athleticism and high spots as opposed to guys pretending to be unconscious for 3 minutes after a legdrop or suplex?
Finally and most importantly, what is his solution? Permanently ban wrestling chatter on the Internet? Face it people, kayfabe is broken. It has been since like 1920 to people with IQ's over 85. Without a viable solution or any sense of purpose, his article comes off as whining.
Instead of blaming fans, smaller guys, or technology, start creating a product that is innovative and fun to watch. Otherwise the only game in town is going to be 2.7 Raw's featuring Vince's Three Ring Circus appealing to 9 year olds like in the early 90's.
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