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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Dec 4, 2009 19:24:32 GMT -5
I dunno. I haven't read the post-Johns stuff yet. Im still bitter about him killing off Damage for no good reason other than to have a "shocking" death, and I think splitting up the JSA into 2 teams and having one of them be The Authority jr. completely misses the point of the JSA in the first place.
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Jay Peas 42
El Dandy
Totally flips out ALL the time.
Is looking forward to a Nation of Domination Kwannza Special.
Posts: 8,329
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Post by Jay Peas 42 on Dec 4, 2009 19:33:31 GMT -5
I blame it on Vegeta, Piccollo, Spike and Angelus. Let's face it, the heros on Buffy and DBZ were kind of lame.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Dec 4, 2009 19:35:34 GMT -5
I think it goes back a lot further than that. Wolverine predates them and he definitely wasn't the first hero like this to catch on with the public.
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AriadosMan
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Your friendly neighborhood superhero
Posts: 15,620
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Post by AriadosMan on Dec 4, 2009 19:52:40 GMT -5
I think it goes back a lot further than that. Wolverine predates them and he definitely wasn't the first hero like this to catch on with the public. Um...(in comics, anyway) Batman? And there's about amillion pre-comic literary precedents as well. Hell, the "hero who can do no wrong" is historically MORE of an anomaly than "badass" characters are.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Dec 4, 2009 20:07:06 GMT -5
I blame it on Vegeta, Piccollo, Spike and Angelus. Let's face it, the heros on Buffy and DBZ were kind of lame. I liked Gohan a lot more than Vegeta.
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Tapout
Hank Scorpio
WWE Creative(TM)
W.W.W.Y.K.I.
Posts: 6,919
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Post by Tapout on Dec 4, 2009 20:16:15 GMT -5
You boys just need to explore older media, back before the 90s. Before then, every hero was a nice guy.
Example: 1970s live-action Spider-Man. The perfect example of a hero who is not only a nice guy, but courteous, progressively sensitive to modern issues like racism and feminism, and actually avoids conflict whenever possible (and actually runs away sometimes to do it). Though since it was the 70s, he knew kung fu.
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Post by Kroot bringing Justice on Dec 4, 2009 20:19:41 GMT -5
I blame it on Vegeta, Piccollo, Spike and Angelus. Let's face it, the heros on Buffy and DBZ were kind of lame. I liked Gohan a lot more than Vegeta. I liked Piccolo the most when he was nice to Gohan, not because he was badass. If only Toriyama's original plan to have Gohan, Piccolo, and Tien be the mains of the series after Cell had happened. Sig.
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Fundertaker
Vegeta
Hideo Kojima should direct every ending ever!
Posts: 9,153
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Post by Fundertaker on Dec 4, 2009 20:43:50 GMT -5
Because only badasses and rich people are allowed to screw the rules.
Just ask Seto Kaiba.
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Post by Gerard Gerard on Dec 4, 2009 20:56:14 GMT -5
i think it may come from this intrinsic, subsubsubconscious. generalized, pan-continental christianly guilt. That's to say, we love it when the great f***os of this world come around and redeem themselves in the eyes of man and, well, i would put god here but really.....
the concept really reached it's peak all of say eight years ago but since became the staple of many a drama who's writers aren't capable of conjuring up compelling enough material thus opt for the "he's complex cause he's evil but feels terribly terrible about the fact" throw in a redeeming backstory i.e. dead lover/parent/sibling/friend or the like et voila, we have our first narrative cliche of the twenty first century.
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Post by aka Cthulhu on Dec 4, 2009 21:25:46 GMT -5
They're okay, but not all badasses are dark, brooding, or assholes. For example, Carrot from the Discworld novels and Tenma from Monster. Both are nice-guy characters, but are badass in their nice-guy way.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Dec 4, 2009 21:31:33 GMT -5
I much prefer your 'good guy' heroes like Spider-man, Superman, Captain America et al.
The other guys have their place, and I do enjoy 'em, but the non badass/non dark characters I tend to gravitate toward
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Dec 4, 2009 21:33:46 GMT -5
No idea personally, I all ways prefered the nice guy super heroes and the bad ass guys are usually assholes who ruin group dynamics *Thanks for f***ing up the JSA Magog*. I actually like Magog. does a parody of Cable deserve the push he's getting right now? hell no. but he's an interesting wrinkle in the JSA dynamic. Superman is the most badass superhero ever, IMO strictly because he's so unashamedly The Good Guy. esp the DCAU version. *see "World of Cardboard" speech* Exactly right. He gets the most guff for being 'goody two shoes' but he's also THE most heroic. Here's a guy that could rule the world; and chooses to protect it.
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spec
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Post by spec on Dec 4, 2009 22:00:59 GMT -5
Because why should only the villains have all the fun? I think people woke up to the fact that good and bad are seldom ever black and white but rather grey areas subject to interpretation and point of view. In more innocent times it was comforting to know exactly who the good guys were and why they were heroes and who the bad guys were and why they were villains. It's certainly a simpler concept to grasp. But increased cynicism, questioning of values and mistrust in authority and the establishment gave rise to the anti-hero. Inside every man is a struggle between good and evil that cannot be resolved.
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Post by BoilerRoomBrawler on Dec 4, 2009 22:01:34 GMT -5
I liked Gohan a lot more than Vegeta. I liked Piccolo the most when he was nice to Gohan, not because he was badass. If only Toriyama's original plan to have Gohan, Piccolo, and Tien be the mains of the series after Cell had happened. Sig. I still think that the single biggest problem of the Buu Saga was that Goku was involved - what you just described would have been awesome IMO.
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Post by Kroot bringing Justice on Dec 4, 2009 22:03:58 GMT -5
I was especially pissed Tien went right back to being completely useless in the Buu Saga. Especially seeing how he actually did decent against Cell.
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Post by BoilerRoomBrawler on Dec 4, 2009 22:10:39 GMT -5
Because why should only the villains have all the fun? I think people woke up to the fact that good and bad are seldom ever black and white but rather grey areas subject to interpretation and point of view. In more innocent times it was comforting to know exactly who the good guys were and why they were heroes and who the bad guys were and why they were villains. It's certainly a simpler concept to grasp. But increased cynicism, questioning of values and mistrust in authority and the establishment gave rise to the anti-hero. Inside every man is a struggle between good and evil that cannot be resolved. Mostly agree, but I don't think that most people truly "struggle" with morality.
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erisi236
Fry's dog Seymour
... enjoys the rich, smooth taste of Camels.
Not good! Not good! Not good!
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Post by erisi236 on Dec 5, 2009 4:49:13 GMT -5
I'd imagine that there are so many is because they're more relatable to the common man.
Everyone can be a drunken badass like Tony Stark or a brooding badass like Batman, there's only a very few that could be a superman like... Superman.
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Post by taylorandborland on Dec 5, 2009 12:17:36 GMT -5
Superman is cool because he's nice to a fault. He goes beyond being "I try to be good because I'm a nice guy" and takes it to "I try to be nice because I'm the good guy". The point is that Superman is really an awkward goofball deep down and his heroic exterior is just as much of a mask as Clark Kent is. He knows what a hero SHOULD do, and he does it because it needs to be done. That's good shit. I blame it on Vegeta, Piccollo, Spike and Angelus. Let's face it, the heros on Buffy and DBZ were kind of lame. I liked Gohan a lot more than Vegeta. Serious? Vegeta was always hit or miss because sometimes he'd just do bad stuff for its own sake, but Gohan had his head up his ass all the time until pressured. To me that's just kinda sad.
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Soultastic
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Post by Soultastic on Dec 5, 2009 12:23:35 GMT -5
I don't need them all all the time. Spiderman is not "badass" yet he is my favorite hero of all times and quite frankly I can't stand the Punisher (Punisher. Frank-ly. Get it?). But when the alternative is a hero that's supposed to be deep because he/she cries and whines all the time and doesn't do a damn thing but feel sorry for himself/herself (I'm looking at you, Shinji), I'll take the badass hero.
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Lick Ness Monster
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Post by Lick Ness Monster on Dec 5, 2009 12:29:34 GMT -5
Because it's our male equivalent of the female projection fantasy (Sex and the City, Twilight, etc.). But instead of wishing for love and material items like in those films, the male fantasy (or at least mine) is to be able to be totally independent, man up, and also maintain a sense of mischief and boyhood. Even in some of the more traditional "goody-goody" heroes, there's still a semi-dark side. James Bond may save the world in every movie, but he still has time to nail countless chicks. Han Solo becomes a hero, but is still a rogue throughout Episodes IV-VI. I could list a few more, but I think my point is clear.
I'll also add that when it's written WELL, yes, anti-heroes are deeper than traditional boy scout heroes. The problem is that they're very rarely written well, and half the time we're simply shown a badass with no character depth and told to root for him based on that alone. Think Vin Diesel and Jason Statham movies.
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