|
|
Post by cernex on Jan 11, 2010 19:46:20 GMT -5
I could honestly care less. Henry Ford was a monster. He was an anti-semite and Nazi sympathizer who was awarded the Grand Cross (the highest honor the Nazi's ever gave out) . Does that mean I won't buy/ride in a Ford or use any product made on an assembly line? Of course not. He's dead - he doesn't gain anything from it. Chris Benoit was a monster as well. But he doesn't profit or gain anything from me watching a wrestling match. Disregard my first post. THIS! |
|
|
|
Post by Confused Mark Wahlberg on Jan 11, 2010 19:51:12 GMT -5
I guess I have an advantage in that Benoit bored me to tears before he murdered everyone, so not watching his matches was no big deal.
But just looking at face fills me with rage.
But the single memory I have of that Monday was Regal's tribute, that was just so strange.
I just got that sinking feeling that he had killed them after watching that, I can't even explain it.
|
|
|
|
Post by drjayphd (feat. Pitbull) on Jan 11, 2010 19:56:55 GMT -5
you know, for some reason, I think a whole bunch of people's arguments would be different if Benoit was Still alive and in jail somewhere. Also I think some people who "don't care" or "can seperate" would feel different if it was something like he molested Daniel or Raped dozens of innocent women, and was proven and convicted of it (probably if it was just one or two like Tyson they'd have forgiven him though). Possibly. But he didn't. So that'll be purely a hypothetical situation, one that won't change my stance.  |
|
|
|
Post by BorneAgain on Jan 11, 2010 19:57:36 GMT -5
The ultimate issue for me is a matter of separating the performer and the man, that I can do easily.
What will continue to confound me is the state of mind of Chris Benoit in those final days. Was he always like this? Did he turn into it at some point, and if so when? That is the question that ultimately renders me unable to absolutely condemn him as a monster, or absolutely see him as a brain damaged individual who simply was not in the right state of mind.
People who knew him far better than I were shocked and stunned by what he did. People like Malenko and Jericho who had over a decade long relationship with him. People who saw him every week couldn't understand how he could do this. I suppose that leads me won have an ambiguous view. If the man's own friends can't understand, I don't know how I can.
Chris Benoit was a man I loved watching for years. Chris Benoit was a man who despicably murdered his own wife and child. Where the former ended and the latter began , I cannot say, and I doubt any of us will ever know for certain. Those who can still watch him are not wrong for doing so, nor are those who can't stand the sight of him.
I guess for myself currently it comes down to this. Years ago I bought the Hard Knox Chris Benoit DVD. I haven't got rid of it yet... but I haven't watched it either. Something tells me that will likely be the case for some time.
|
|
|
|
Post by seamonsters on Jan 11, 2010 20:04:10 GMT -5
After hearing all the information on Benoit, I'm not even sure if he would have gotten convicted of double murder if he stayed alive, at least that in the 1st degree. He may've ended up getting a manslaughter sentence. Though, I guess the first homicide may've gotten that, the second I'm not too sure, due to how long it took place til afterwards. My personal guess is he was going to kill himself after he killed himself, and if there were no plans on killing himself, I doubt he would have killed Daniel. Again, this is my opinion based on what I've read, been presented with, etc. With what happened with his brain autoposy, I'm sure his defense would have put in an insanity plea. Kinda like what happened with Verne Gagne when he killed that person. He had diminished mental capacity, and like, it's a tragedy, but it's a tough crime to convict. And that's kinda what I think of it. Great post, and you've hit the nail on the head. I'm currently studying Biological Psychology, (essentially how the brain works). Now the experts who have seen Benoit's brain compared it to the brain of an Alzheimer's sufferer (which is why the Gagne comparison is spot on). And with their knowledge of Alzheimer's, know that those with Alzheimer's do have for want of a better phrase "blackout periods", where they do something, and have no recollection. Quite often, these periods are violent. We'll never know for sure, but my own experiences, my own knowledge of the brain, and that of the experts in the field, who have seen Benoit's brain for themselves. I'd be 99% certain that Benoit had no control when he killed Nancy, at the very least. As for those who can't get their head around Benoit being mentally ill, yet still being able to walk around normally and act normal in the weeks/months leading up to it - the brain is the most sophisticated thing in the world. A million miles more complex than a motor car - yet when the bulb in the headlights stop working, you can still drive it. That said, considering the state of Benoit's brain, and that unprotected head shots and to a lesser extent the diving headbutts will have had on his brain, when I last tried to watch a match of his, I couldn't because I couldn't get the idea of "is this one of the matches that led to his brain ending up that fried". |
|
|
|
Post by Seth Drakin of Monster Crap on Jan 11, 2010 20:11:40 GMT -5
When I bought the Royal Rumble Anthology, I decided to test how much I had gotten over the incident by watching the 2004 Royal Rumble and after that, watching WMXX. And I must say, I have really moved on.
In fact, the only troubling thing for me is the moment when Eddie Guerrero and Chris Benoit celebrate their world titles at the end of the show. However, that is honestly because I know that in 3 years....both men would be dead and the man whose title win they were celebrating would do something so unspeakable that he would be known as "the forbidden topic".
But as far as his matches go, I can watch them now....including the wonderful 1994 Super J Cup Finals with Chris Benoit as Wild Pegasus taking on The Great Sasuke.
|
|
SlimTrip
AC Slater
f*** This Company
Posts: 221
|
Post by SlimTrip on Jan 11, 2010 20:38:59 GMT -5
I haven't watched a full Benoit match since his death. I've seen him in the background on a few dvds and seen some clips on youtube. I guess i've been over it. That No Bravery video sent chills down my spine though.
|
|
Magnus the Magnificent
King Koopa
didn't want one.
I could write a book about what you don't know!
Posts: 12,631 
|
Post by Magnus the Magnificent on Jan 12, 2010 10:22:47 GMT -5
I didn't knew Chris Benoit, Nancy Benoit, or Daniel Benoit, so I don't really care. They were just three out of thousands of people that die every day. Should I care more about them because they were famous? Does that make me cold-hearted or shallow? That said, I can still get enjoyment from Benoit's matches. So, you can't feel sympathy for anyone that you don't know. If that is the case, than as ironic as it may be, I have sympathy for you. That is not what I wrote or meant. Should I care more about someone because they are/were famous? And my answer to that is always no, because they are not worth any more than any of us on the planet. |
|
|
|
Post by "Dashing" Dr.VonPhoenix on Jan 12, 2010 10:34:45 GMT -5
I'm honestly over it. I've kinda BEEN over it. It doesn't make his matches harder for me to watch anymore or anything like that and I really never got how so many people took it so personally. It was terrible what happened, but it happened and there's no one left to punish. Why continue to make a pariah of a dead man? Watch wrestling.  |
|
|
|
Post by don on Jan 12, 2010 16:46:14 GMT -5
So, you can't feel sympathy for anyone that you don't know. If that is the case, than as ironic as it may be, I have sympathy for you. That is not what I wrote or meant. Should I care more about someone because they are/were famous? And my answer to that is always no, because they are not worth any more than any of us on the planet. I do agree with this. I think I misunderstood your post. I always say that when a celebrity passes away. Sure, it's sad; but it is no more or less sad than anyone else passes away. Just because someone had some level of fame doesn't give their life more value than anyone else's. However, in this particular instance, I would say that it was a bit more sad because an innocent child loss his life at the hands of his hero and the man that was supposed to protect him, his father. |
|
|
|
Post by The Goob, phd (is Jobbing) on Jan 12, 2010 16:48:35 GMT -5
To be honest, I just couldn't care less about the scenario. Sick as it may seem.
|
|
|
|
Post by Fantozzi on Jan 12, 2010 16:52:09 GMT -5
i don't have problems watching him wrestle
in fact, i watched dozens of his matches
the only thing i don't want to watch is "raw is benoit"
|
|
|
|
Post by Brian Suntan on Jan 12, 2010 18:32:55 GMT -5
I could honestly care less. Henry Ford was a monster. He was an anti-semite and Nazi sympathizer who was awarded the Grand Cross (the highest honor the Nazi's ever gave out) . Does that mean I won't buy/ride in a Ford or use any product made on an assembly line? Of course not. He's dead - he doesn't gain anything from it. Chris Benoit was a monster as well. But he doesn't profit or gain anything from me watching a wrestling match. Disregard my first post. THIS! It's not a great analogy though. Aside from the name, a Ford car has very little to do with the man himself. It's just a brand. It's pretty far removed from the personal opinions of the guy who started the company. Watch Benoit however, and you're watching the guy who methodically went about killing his wife and son. There's no kind of removal, he's right there on the screen. He's not a lump of metal that happens to bear the name of some guy who's been dead 50 years. You can look into his eyes, see his emotions, and see him do the things that quite possibly led to him doing what he did. To suggest that a Ford car made in the last 10/15 years reflects the opinions of Henry Ford in the same way as a Chris Benoit wrestling match reflects what he did, is pretty wide of the mark IMO. |
|
|
|
Post by diegorivera on Jan 12, 2010 19:54:18 GMT -5
I've no issue with those who watch and enjoy Benoit matches. I've done it myself here and there since the murders. I don't separate the man from his work, however, nor do I believe that possible without definite proof that Chris the wrestler and Chris the murderer were of two separate minds at the time of the murders. Even then, it was Chris the wrestler who led to, essentially created Chris the murderer. They are the same man as far as I and experts in the field can tell at this moment. Even if his mind had degenerated, Chris Benoit is Chris Benoit. Father, husband, wrestler, murderer. All the same man. Do all killers and criminals get the same distinction? Is Timothy McVeigh the soldier different from Timothy McVeigh the bomber? Is Hitler the rebuilder of his country and the pride of his people different from Hitler the killer of millions of innocent people? I'm sure the Ku Klux Klan does nice things for white, heterosexual, Christian US born citizens. Does that make a difference when one considers all the non-whites, homosexuals, non-Christians and immigrants they've terrorized, if not outright killed?I am not saying that Chris Benoit is comparable to those individuals/groups, but I severely doubt that without his status as a minor celebrity anyone would be as willing to separate Chris Benoit's work in wrestling with his murders.
It speaks of making excuses to me. Excuses that are not necessary. No one should feel so beneath another as a human being that he or she should have to answer to someone else for enjoying a Chris Benoit match or the man's work in professional wrestling. Do what you want. Enjoy want you want, regardless of who provides it. I appreciate "Birth of a Nation," as a film but don't support the themes of the film or it's content. I like the music of Michael Jackson but I don't pretend like he was not in all likelihood a child molester. I can understand the actions of even a group such as the Taliban but I in no way support those actions or feel that the world wouldn't be a better place without such an organization. The ends don't always justify the means. Being a good person 99% of your life doesn't mean you can't make all of that irrelevant with a single percent.
I don't watch Chris Benoit matches often. I feel no personal sympathy for the families effected by this tragedy, but I do not pretend that the man I am watching is not a murderer. I don't care about the timeframe of his match; there's plenty of evidence that supports that Chris' entire wrestling career contributed to his actions. It wasn't anything that happened in the WWE in particular, not even Eddie's death, that led to Chris' actions. Idolizing a cruel bully like Tom Billington, burtal, humiliating Japanese training sessions, matches where he jarred and injured his head in order to produce a more "realistic" looking match and the often drug and degradation filled cultures of ECW, WCW and the WWF/WWE as well as within wrestling itself were all factors. Yet, in the end, Nancy and Daniel Benoit were not killed by any of that. They were killed by Chris Benoit, Nancy's husband and Daniel's father. Chris had his chances to leave the industry. He saw the truths behind wrestling's veil. No one forced him to do what he did. Beyond that, most wrestlers have endured simmilar circumstances as Chris and not done what he did. I'd argue that Jake Roberts endured as much as Chris Benoit. At least at this point and time he has not directly damaged the lives of anyone else. That is not something I can say about Chris Benoit. No great match, beautiful moment or lifetime of passion and hard work can supercede murdering your wife and child before taking your own life, all in a methodical, planned out moment of insanity and cruelty. I see Benoit for all he is. I don't blame the WWE for hacking all appearances of him, even those that are disruptive to other matches or events in their history. There is nothing to gain from leaving that footage unedited that could be worthwhile enough to counteract the possible crapstorm that could arise should the company be accused of profiting from Benoit's legacy. And beyond that, there is little, if anything important enough about the history of professional wrestling, let alone the comparably short time Benoit was a fixture in it, that couldn't be outright erased out of respect for a single life, let alone two. I say that as a fan of professional wrestling.
Apologies for the long post...
|
|
|
|
Post by HollywoodArmbar on Jan 12, 2010 20:18:06 GMT -5
It's never been an issue for me at all. He was never really one of my favourites when he was alive so perhaps my general lack of emotional investment in him in general is part of the reason, I don't know. At the end of the day, I'm just watching a wrestling match, what happens in any of the wrestlers' personal lives is irrelevant to me when it comes to enjoying the match.
|
|
|
|
Post by woodface on Jan 13, 2010 1:27:15 GMT -5
I'm one of the (apparently few) people who can separate the man and the worker. And honestly, what the man did isn't any of my business, or anybody else for that matter IMO. The worker, however, still remains one of the best workers in the history of the business. Anytime you murder a goddamn child, it is my business. That said, I won't hate the human being nor his work, although what he did was bullshit, as all of us can agree on. Based on details of the evidence that I've read though, I'm not gonna say he was the worst human being in the world. The man did actually have compassion from time to time in his life. In regards to his work, I watch it fairly often, and I guarantee as the years go by we'll see more of his stuff become available from WWE. |
|
|
|
Post by The Goob, phd (is Jobbing) on Jan 13, 2010 1:50:53 GMT -5
I'm one of the (apparently few) people who can separate the man and the worker. And honestly, what the man did isn't any of my business, or anybody else for that matter IMO. The worker, however, still remains one of the best workers in the history of the business. Anytime you murder a goddamn child, it is my business. That said, I won't hate the human being nor his work, although what he did was bulls***, as all of us can agree on. Based on details of the evidence that I've read though, I'm not gonna say he was the worst human being in the world. The man did actually have compassion from time to time in his life. In regards to his work, I watch it fairly often, and I guarantee as the years go by we'll see more of his stuff become available from WWE. How does it become YOUR business? Because you want it to be. |
|
|
|
Post by woodface on Jan 13, 2010 2:03:51 GMT -5
Anytime you murder a goddamn child, it is my business. That said, I won't hate the human being nor his work, although what he did was bulls***, as all of us can agree on. Based on details of the evidence that I've read though, I'm not gonna say he was the worst human being in the world. The man did actually have compassion from time to time in his life. In regards to his work, I watch it fairly often, and I guarantee as the years go by we'll see more of his stuff become available from WWE. How does it become YOUR business? Because you want it to be. If you don't find any type of offense to someone defenseless being murdered, you've got some psychological issues. |
|
|
|
Post by The Goob, phd (is Jobbing) on Jan 13, 2010 2:05:48 GMT -5
How does it become YOUR business? Because you want it to be. If you don't find any type of offense to someone defenseless being murdered, you've got some psychological issues. If someone I know killed a child, I'd be hugely offended if someone across the world who doesn't know them took upon themselves to be offended by it. |
|
Bub (BLM)
Patti Mayonnaise
advocates duck on rodent violence
Fed. Up.
Posts: 37,742
|
Post by Bub (BLM) on Jan 13, 2010 2:12:27 GMT -5
It still bothers me to think about it. Chris Benoit was my favorite "Big 2" wrestler from 1996 all the way up until 2001. I idolized the guy for his tenacity and his amazing work in WCW in 1997.
For the longest time after the incident, I tried to make myself feel better about it by focusing on the fact that Benoit was clearly insane. I felt like if I looked at it that way, then it meant that brain damage is what cause him to kill his family, and that the real Chris Benoit wouldn't have done that.
Now, I've pretty much reached my final viewpoint on the entire situation. Insane or no, one of my favorite wrestlers murdered his wife and a little boy. Insane or not, that's just beyond awful. I can still watch his matches, but I can't mark for his work in them anymore.
The whole situation just sucks, and I wish to god it never happened.
|
|
