Chainsaw
T
A very BAD man.
It is what it is
Posts: 90,480
|
Post by Chainsaw on Nov 21, 2009 2:13:20 GMT -5
I'll even meet him half way and say that it is entirely possible that if Hogan, Rock or Austin headlined MSG for event after event after event they would not consistently draw like Bruno did. Of course, it doesn't matter since they never had to, but I'm willing to say it's a possibility. I think this is a very good point that I'd like to expand on a little bit. I think Bruno may be right when he makes this point, but it's totally devoid of some much needed context. In Bruno's day the only way to keep up on wrestling was to go to the live events that were in your area every week, or month, or whatever their schedule was. Fans went to the arena shows the same way we plop down in front of the couch to watch Raw nowadays. There was no cable then, there was no internet. Big time fans, like us, who didn't want to wait for the magazines to hit the news stands in a month, had to go to the live events to keep up. And let's be honest about something else. A decent ticket in those days probably cost $1.50, even at MSG. It wasn't like today where it's a big event that a family has to save up for to attend. There was no Ticketmaster online either. The fans who wanted to attend could make the decision that day, walk up to the MSG box office, pay a reasonable ticket price and spend the afternoon smoking cigarettes, drinking beer, and getting their wrestling fix. Selling out an arena in those days was a totally different animal and can't still be held as the barometer for success nowadays when fans have so many other ways to get their wrestling fix. Bingo. It was a different world and atmosphere when Bruno was champ.
|
|
|
Post by manstis1804 on Nov 21, 2009 16:10:37 GMT -5
I gotta say, if you just read the clips in the OP, read the whole interview. It'll give you a much more balanced look at the guy, his opinions make more sense.
|
|
|
Post by lildude8218 on Nov 21, 2009 17:21:50 GMT -5
In the first 3 years that Hogan had the belt, the WWF went to MSG once a month until February 1987. Here are the attendances for the shows he appeared on starting with his title victory:
January 84 - 26,292 which included 4,000 at Felt Forum
February 84 - 26,092 which included 4,000 at Felt Forum
May 84 - 25,000 including several thousand at Felt Forum
July 84 "The Brawl to End it All" - 15,000
September 84 - 19,000
October 84 - 20,000
December 84 - 26,092, including several thousand at Felt Forum; sell out for both the arena and Forum
February 85 "The War to Settle the Score" - 26,092 including several thousand at Felt Forum; sell out
March 85 (Hogan doesn't wrestle, just appears in Piper's Pit) - 18,700
Wrestlemania - 19,121
May 85 - 15,000
June 85 - 19,800
December 85 - 20,225; sell out
January 86 - 20,225; sell out
February 86 - 20,225; sell out
April 86 - 15,000
September 86 - 12,000
November 86 - 19,700 paid; sell out
December 86 - just listed as sell out
January 87 - 15,500; sell out
In fact, pretty much all of the shows Hogan was on at that arena through the end of 1989 were all sellouts.
|
|
|
Post by Threadkiller [Classic] on Nov 21, 2009 19:52:58 GMT -5
Interesting figures. I too am fascinated by the concept of arguments about who is/isn't or was/wasn't a draw. That's just fascinating stuff to me.
|
|
|
Post by Real Folk Bruce on Nov 21, 2009 20:22:22 GMT -5
Yeah Bruno, Austin,Rock, and Hogan never drew as much as you did, and the Gagnes invented MMA.
Please stop embarrassing yourself.
|
|
|
Post by Beets by Schrute on Nov 21, 2009 20:37:52 GMT -5
This came to mind while reading: ![](http://i4.ytimg.com/vi/kJJA1vvMc4I/default.jpg) Donkey: Nope sorry, Hulk Hogan never drew. Dude: What?! Of course he did. Donkey: Nope sorry u lose. Dude: Wat are u talkin about? he's sold out arenas all over the country. he brought pro wrestling into mainstream and he is considered of the greatest stars of the 1980s. Donkey: NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! HEE-HAW! HEE-HAW! HEE- HAWW!
|
|
|
Post by squash on Nov 22, 2009 2:10:53 GMT -5
Bruno and Hogan are similar in that both of them, in their prime, carried the company on their backs (anyone who thinks people were filling MSG to see Ivan Putski and Dominic DeNucci is kidding themselves). But Bruno's time is pretty much forgotten by many fans these days, while Hogan's legendary stature is alive and well (although maybe a bit diminished due to his age and difficulties in his personal life).
I think it's too easy to argue that Bruno is bitter -- more likely he just wants to remind people that Hogan, Austin et al. did not create professional wrestling -- it existed before they arrived and Bruno had a lot to do with that.
Side observation -- Bruno had the advantage of working with better heels. On their best days, guys like Koloff, Hansen, Stasiak, Brody etc. put the current crop to shame.
|
|
SAJ Forth
Wade Wilson
Jamaican WCF Crazy!
Half Man-Half Amazing
Posts: 27,214
|
Post by SAJ Forth on Nov 23, 2009 1:08:43 GMT -5
This was very weird. Though I also think Hogan brought in money.
|
|
|
Post by VengeanceGOD on Nov 23, 2009 1:24:28 GMT -5
This is a very clear and sort of sad picture about a guy who had the business move on without him and never figured out how to move with it. He seems to think that the regional model is the only one that matters, and that it's great that guys from his era are crippled now. That's...just sad.
|
|
|
Post by Tiger Millionaire on Nov 23, 2009 1:30:24 GMT -5
Bruno is the Chuck Bednarik of Wrestling. Chuck was an Eagles legend who sits there and badmouths everyone unless he can make money off of them. He refused to root for them in the Super Bowl because the owner wouldn't give out copies of his book(which was against league rules). These are guys that are out of touch, and it's just sad.
Sammartino says all this crap, but it comes down to the fact that Vince didn't want to push his no talent son to the moon. He sat their an announced and collected money all during the era of Hogan and the over the top characters.
|
|
|
Post by Fantozzi on Nov 23, 2009 16:08:04 GMT -5
"BS" denotes Bruno Sammartino, obviously i agree ;D
|
|
|
Post by HMARK Center on Nov 23, 2009 20:46:27 GMT -5
The part I do find pretty fascinating is how a guy can't really exist as a draw these days the way a champion used to, and how that seems to be a combination of market over-saturation and wrestling ability (or lack thereof).
Hulk Hogan was perhaps one of the single biggest forces in pop culture from the mid-to-late 80's, yet even his popularity couldn't last at the incredible levels they reached once we hit the early 90's. I do agree with Bruno that Hogan's lack of wrestling ability (not saying Hogan sucked as a worker, just that he was all about the "flash over substance" style, so to speak) being a harbinger that he couldn't draw for too long an amount of time as things were; even without Hogan wrestling most weeks on TV, his style did eventually wear out, and he had to redefine himself as Hollywood Hogan in WCW.
But there's no denying that Hogan drew money in what was simply a vastly different way than anyone who ever came before him. Hogan was the sign of the changing times, but he drew in this new way due to the platform he was given, as Vince expanded internationally and got his hands into all different kinds of media.
Meanwhile, take a guy like Curt Hennig, or Bret Hart, or maybe Randy Savage; I think those guys could've flourished in either era of wrestling. They would never draw in the short term the way Hogan could, but they could vary up their matches and wrestling styles enough that they could remain fresh draws for years and years if you wanted them to.
|
|
|
Post by The Summer of Muskrat XVII on Nov 23, 2009 21:44:35 GMT -5
I'm gonna start of by saying that I respect the hell out of Bruno. Without him there is no WWWF/WWF/WWE, period.
However, his logic is really flawed here. He's basically getting mad at modern wrestling for selling crappy apples, when they stopped selling apples and started selling oranges over 20 years ago.
Comparing wrestling from the 50's/60's/70's to wrestling today is like comparing early 20th Century American Football to current NFL. It's 2 totally different games, based on the same basic idea.
|
|
TuneinTokyo
Hank Scorpio
The Mountain from Stone Mountain
Posts: 6,431
|
Post by TuneinTokyo on Nov 24, 2009 20:38:35 GMT -5
I'm not saying I agree with Bruno, but he reminds me of most old timers who don't understand what's happening today.
As far as wrestlers who used profanity? The old school guys fans and wrestlers regularly used N-words, F-words, and what ever else. When I went to my first few shows '81 there weren't alot kids. Lots of smoke, drinking, and swearing.
|
|
|
Post by Angus Mcloud on Nov 24, 2009 22:05:17 GMT -5
Brunos a joke by now. Bored the hell out of me as a wrestler and was the worst announcer I can remember.
|
|
|
Post by Threadkiller [Classic] on Nov 25, 2009 0:57:12 GMT -5
I'm gonna start of by saying that I respect the hell out of Bruno. Without him there is no WWWF/WWF/WWE, period. However, his logic is really flawed here. He's basically getting mad at modern wrestling for selling crappy apples, when they stopped selling apples and started selling oranges over 20 years ago. That, sir, may be the greatest analogy I've ever read on these forums.
|
|
efarns
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,273
|
Post by efarns on Nov 25, 2009 4:00:59 GMT -5
Does this happen in other professions?
"These accountants today - not a one of them can really do the job. They wouldn't know a ledger book if it fell off a filing cabinet and hit them in their heads. I have chronic writer's cramp from handling a pencil. That was REAL accounting, let me tell you. There hasn't been a real accountant produced since 1985. Bill Gates ruined this business."
|
|
default
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Blames Everything On Snitsky. Yes, Even THAT.
Posts: 17,056
|
Post by default on Nov 25, 2009 4:59:08 GMT -5
He's definitely jilted and has quite a few screwed up facts. I also feel sorry for the announcer, he knew som of the stuff Bruno was saying didn't make sense, but it didn't add up either. And Sammartino definitely prostituted himself not only to Vince, but to the short-lived UWF as well when they hired his kid. The owner was a cokehead and if a guy like Foley knew it, being pretty much a jobber in the company, than Sammartino should've known it as well.
I do see where Sammartino is coming from with the consistent sellouts of like MSG and Boston, although I don't really agree. What he was getting at is that if you stick say Hogan at MSG once a month, the fans would get tired of it after a while. The business had changed at that point, however. Vince knew Hogan (and then Austin and Rock) was the type of guy who could sell out an arena in NY once, then Boston, then Philly, then Chi, then LA, then Detroit, etc. That's something that Sammartino I doubt could've done. Same with Gagne. But on the flipside, it's hard to say that Hogan could've sold out MSG once a month or Austin or Rock. It's hard to say even if Hogan could've say, sold out Florida regularly or Austin in Texas as local guys with their gimmicks perfected.
However, none of that is really the result of the wrestling business changing, it's the result of the time's changing. That was the 80's. Attention spans shortened. There was cable TV, VCRs, video games... there was so much out there that it's hard to say that one guy could've captivated an audience the way things were in the 60's and 70's and even very early 80's. I mean, I Love Lucy was a great show in it's time. But it wasn't eve competing against 5 other shows at the time in most markets. I've got around 80 channels on my cable package.
|
|
default
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Blames Everything On Snitsky. Yes, Even THAT.
Posts: 17,056
|
Post by default on Nov 25, 2009 5:06:40 GMT -5
Does this happen in other professions? "These accountants today - not a one of them can really do the job. They wouldn't know a ledger book if it fell off a filing cabinet and hit them in their heads. I have chronic writer's cramp from handling a pencil. That was REAL accounting, let me tell you. There hasn't been a real accountant produced since 1985. Bill Gates ruined this business." You'd be surprised. There's always going to be old timers who complain about something that's changed. My grandfather used to tell me about old timers who complained about people hunting deer with bolt action rifles instead of muzzleloaders. My great grandmother didn't want a telephone for years. For the sole reason that she didn't want to talk to them unless they stopped in.
|
|
|
Post by Black Swagger on Nov 25, 2009 19:00:39 GMT -5
As much as I respect Bruno Sammartino for his accomplishments, I can't help to think that he suffers from that "Well in my day" philosophy that a lot of these old heads seem to have in the world. Well Bruno this isn't you day, and the 80's was Hogan's day. Bruno needs to understand that Hulk Hogan is probably the biggest draw of all time and he goes way beyond simply MSG.
|
|