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Post by rnrk supports BLM on Apr 22, 2010 23:51:50 GMT -5
To clarify, I think the Wrestlemania X ladder match is largely responsible for popularizing the idea of ladder matches as crazy spotfests, and without it, we may never have gotten TLC matches, or Money in the Bank. That could be true. Ladder matches were around for over 20 years before that particular match though. Plenty of them had high spots. Granted they were probably never done as well. One thing I will say is, if the first thing that comes to your mind when I mention his influence is that Shawn Michaels changed the way guys do ladder matches, how influential is he? Kind of a small thing to break ground on. Not necessarily. We're getting at least two PPVs this year based around the selling point of a big ladder match (not to mention last year's Summerslam main event). I think, compared to the '80s and before, we've seen a gradual shift towards faster-paced matches with more high-impact spots in the last couple decades, and I do think Michaels/Razor did its part to help popularize that shift in style. Personally, I think it's hard to gauge the influence individual wrestlers have had on the business, and it's not the category I'd use to rate their importance; how much of the '80s boom came from Hulk Hogan, and how much from Vince McMahon? (For that matter, would Hulkamania have ever become so big if Stallone hadn't cast Hogan in Rocky 3?) What about Austin in the '90s? While there are a few obvious exceptions (like Foley bringing hardcore wrestling into the mainstream), I think it's difficult sometimes to judge how much of a wrestler's success came from their skills as a performer and how much came from the ways in which they were booked. Who do you consider some of the most influential wrestlers? I'm genuinely curious, because I'm not sure how I'd answer that question myself. |
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NIXON
Unicron
Hail to the Chief Bootknocker
Posts: 3,354
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Post by NIXON on Apr 23, 2010 0:08:30 GMT -5
Well there's the obvious answer of Gorgeous George. Freddie Blassie for sure. Completely set the groundwork for heels to this day.
Superstar Billy Graham might be the most influential guy in history, if not the most copied. Hogan, Jesse Ventura, HHH, all these guys would never have been the stars they became with out mimicking or flat out ripping off Superstar.
Michael Hayes was probably the first "tween" and really changed the way heels and faces were viewed. He set the stage for guys like HBK an DX by practically inventing the cool heel. Not to mention here's a guy with limited ability to say the least, and getting by just on pure charisma and gab.
Jake Roberts for what I feel are obvious reasons. Changed the way promos were delivered, went against the grain of the white bread babyfaces and was really the first sort of dark face.
Ric Flair of course. Wrestling wise, promo wise, Ric Flair was a true innovator.
There are tons of others, but those are the guys off the top of my head. And frankly, with the exception of Flair IMO, HBK is better worker than all those guys. But these are men who were truly ahead of their time, that changed the business as a whole for the better and influenced many of the wrestlers of today and the future.
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Post by perpetualn00b on Apr 23, 2010 1:24:43 GMT -5
Well there's the obvious answer of Gorgeous George. Freddie Blassie for sure. Completely set the groundwork for heels to this day. Superstar Billy Graham might be the most influential guy in history, if not the most copied. Hogan, Jesse Ventura, HHH, all these guys would never have been the stars they became with out mimicking or flat out ripping off Superstar. Michael Hayes was probably the first "tween" and really changed the way heels and faces were viewed. He set the stage for guys like HBK an DX by practically inventing the cool heel. Not to mention here's a guy with limited ability to say the least, and getting by just on pure charisma and gab. Jake Roberts for what I feel are obvious reasons. Changed the way promos were delivered, went against the grain of the white bread babyfaces and was really the first sort of dark face. Ric Flair of course. Wrestling wise, promo wise, Ric Flair was a true innovator. There are tons of others, but those are the guys off the top of my head. And frankly, with the exception of Flair IMO, HBK is better worker than all those guys. But these are men who were truly ahead of their time, that changed the business as a whole for the better and influenced many of the wrestlers of today and the future. Here's a controversial one: Rey Mysterio, for being the single most influential and successful cruiserweight in American wrestling history. |
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Post by perpetualn00b on Apr 23, 2010 1:26:43 GMT -5
I'd actually agree with this... there have been wrestlers who surpassed HBK at each of these individual things, but I can think of very, very few other performers who've excelled at ALL OF THEM TOGETHER to the extent that Michaels has. Perhaps, but I personally value true excellence in one field over being very, very good in several. |
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nate5054
Hank Scorpio
Lucky to be alive in the Chris Jericho Era
Posts: 7,017
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Post by nate5054 on Apr 23, 2010 1:36:46 GMT -5
So is Shawn the best or simply given the gift of WWE promotion and the help of a good friend??? He's up there. Here is my list of 10 guys who can make that claim, in no particular order. keep in mind, these are guys who I saw personally (from about Mania 3 onward) Hulk Hogan Andre the Giant Undertaker Steve Austin The Rock Triple H Shawn Michaels Brett Hart Ric Flair Randy Savage I did have Harley Race on there, but honestly by the time I was watching wrestling he was pretty much a shell of himself. And Steamboat was one of my personal favorites, but never had the hardware to justify being really up there. |
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Post by Kris Kobain on Apr 23, 2010 1:37:52 GMT -5
In my mind without a doubt he is the best of all time.
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Post by MichaelMartini on Apr 23, 2010 3:34:33 GMT -5
No. He's one of them, but he wouldn't even crack my personal top ten.
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Post by rk9295 on Apr 23, 2010 5:52:05 GMT -5
Before posting I thought I'd ask my Mother who is non-wrestling fan a few questions.
Name me one professional wrestler.
A: The WWF
No a Wrestler.
A: Hulk Hogan
Have you ever heard of The Rock?
A: yeah, he's in the movies
What about Stone Cold Steve Austin?
A: no
Bret Hart?
A: Didn't his brother die?
Shawn Michaels?
A: no
The Undertaker?
A: kind of, not really, seems familiar
Triple H?
A: no
Ric Flair?
A: Is he still around? Wow I remember him a long time ago.
Macho Man
A: yeah with Elizabeth
and she also recognized a fair good amount of the 80's main event guys like Jake and Dibiase, as for the 90's not really much, and anything past 1995 forget it.
BTW, for my pick, I agree with the above guy - Gorgeous George.
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Post by FrankGotch on Apr 23, 2010 6:56:01 GMT -5
Nope. Hogan is the greatest ever because at the end of the day pro wrestling is all about getting over and Hogan was millions of times more over hen HBK ever was as a heel or a Face.
If I had to qualify I'd say that HBK was the greatest opponent of all time. HBK was at his best when he was the "other guy" in the ring. HBK was never able to sell a match on his own but if you stick him in the ring with a Flair, Undertaker, Rock, or Austin, magic happens.
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Post by Jimichiro Likes Erick Rowan on Apr 23, 2010 7:09:46 GMT -5
Greatest of all time in wrestling history? Eh, I don't know.
Greatest of all time in WWE history? Quite possibly.
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kunswwfmark
Hank Scorpio
Nobody beats Mr. Perfect. Nobody!
Posts: 5,909
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Post by kunswwfmark on Apr 23, 2010 7:16:26 GMT -5
Shawn's not the greatest of all time in terms of box office, but he is the greatest all around WWE superstar of all time.
Had it not been for his 8 year return run in 2002, I wouldn't have agreed to him being the best ever. But after it, and with his farewell match, I'd argue he's the greatest WWE superstar ever.
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mcstoklasa
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Post by mcstoklasa on Apr 23, 2010 8:13:12 GMT -5
It's Hogan guys.
After him you have Austin, Rock, Flair, Undertaker and Michaels.
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Post by valley22 on Apr 23, 2010 9:01:40 GMT -5
I didnt read after page 1 but heres my opinion:
In terms of the total package, he had it all...workrate, look, mic skills...he took four years off, and came back BETTER.
Austin was a genius on the mic, Hogan had the look and charisma, Bret could carry a dead man to a 5 star match, but HBK had it all.
A few guys in history may be equal, but no one is better.
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Post by valley22 on Apr 23, 2010 9:07:33 GMT -5
Also I forgot to add:
What are you basing greatest on? Ticket sales? Work Rate? Mic skills?
HOGAN, is the greatest ENTERTAINER of all time...kinda like Barry Bonds is the homerun king.
HBK IMO is kinda like the Willie Mays/Mickey Mantle..best all around of all time.
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spagett
Hank Scorpio
Great Job!
Posts: 5,667
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Post by spagett on Apr 23, 2010 9:19:03 GMT -5
Also I forgot to add: What are you basing greatest on? Ticket sales? Work Rate? Mic skills? HOGAN, is the greatest ENTERTAINER of all time...kinda like Barry Bonds is the homerun king. HBK IMO is kinda like the Willie Mays/Mickey Mantle..best all around of all time. All very true but to be very blunt wrestling is fake. Wrestling, and the WWE/F especially, are all about entertainment. You can be the greatest wrestler in the world but if you're boring you won't be winning any matches. Therefore Hogan being the greatest entertainer of all time makes him the greatest wrestler of all time. I like HBK a lot and I think the WWE are going to miss him badly as he was the only upper tier main eventer who would work with mid carders, sell and even lose to them. You just can't look past Hogan because despite all his faults the guy is the ultimate icon. |
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Post by valley22 on Apr 23, 2010 11:09:04 GMT -5
I put Hogan on another planet, I was just taking the arguement and going with it.
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Post by MichaelMartini on Apr 23, 2010 16:03:40 GMT -5
Guys I'd put ahead of Micheals -
Hogan
Austin
Rock
Bret Hart
Flair
Piper
Gorgeous George
Andre
Inoki
Rikidozan
Randy Savage
El Santo
Kobashi
Kawada
Misawa
Mick Foley
Kurt Angle
RVD
Mil Mascaras
Booker T
Owen Hart
HHH
I laugh at all the "total package" comments. He was excellent at two things: prancing and bumping. Vince put him in the main event because of his looks. The guy was getting booed only a few months into his first reign.
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BxB
Unicron
Only the shift key stands between him and copyright infringement.
Posts: 2,849
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Post by BxB on Apr 23, 2010 16:12:29 GMT -5
It's funny. After Flair retired at WM 24 and got his send-off, he won this huge tournament that voted him the greatest of all time, on here. And now we're basically seeing the same thing with Shawn.
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Post by King Fox -1017 Bricksquad on Apr 23, 2010 16:22:00 GMT -5
Aww hell naw!! Dude say he put RVD over Shawn Michaels!
People are delusional in here.
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Post by noleafclover1980 on Apr 23, 2010 17:14:19 GMT -5
Great matches aren't carry jobs. You can carry a crappy wrestler to a good match, but for a GREAT match, it takes two to tango for that. And even then, HBK has gotten some good matches out of guys like Nash, and say what you want about how over the top it was, but if it weren't for HBK super selling, that Hogan match would have been awfull. He at least made it watchable, and it helped having Jim Ross putting over the effort to add to the effect. HBK does a crazy oversell, Ross goes on about the raw power of Hogan. I think HBK and Ross may have been in.. wait for it... cahoots. There may have even been collusion.
I'm sorry, I just went into left field there, but soemone brought that angle up in another thread, and I swear I can't get Vince saying "cahoots" about a trillion times out of my head.
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