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Post by sgt slobber on Jul 20, 2011 6:10:09 GMT -5
And why is Batman fighting ALIENS? Five years ago? Huh? I thought it was Killer Croc
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Post by s l i k on Jul 20, 2011 7:59:09 GMT -5
I see it as more of the return of "The Goddamn Batman" but this time, as written by Geoff Johns.
And oddly enough, still illustrated by Jim Lee.
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Legion
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Post by Legion on Jul 20, 2011 9:10:48 GMT -5
Yeah........i'm just not interested.
I can imagine new readers might be, I can imagine some might be curious, but this just doesnt have the pull factor for me.
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JDviant
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Post by JDviant on Jul 20, 2011 9:35:50 GMT -5
OK, so basically a lot of explosions and cliche dialogue with lines like "Wow! I have NEVER met anyone like YOU!" And why is Batman fighting ALIENS? Five years ago? Huh? This is getting so bad, I cannot even joke about it. Explosions, cliches, and Batman fighting aliens. Apart from "5 years ago", this is the same stuff that kicked off the Morrison JLA relaunch, which is credited as one of the best times in the series.
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Post by Michael Coello on Jul 20, 2011 10:25:28 GMT -5
Batman shooting a grapple straight into the monster's leg. Is that normal for him?
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mattperiolat
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Post by mattperiolat on Jul 20, 2011 10:52:44 GMT -5
OK, so basically a lot of explosions and cliche dialogue with lines like "Wow! I have NEVER met anyone like YOU!" And why is Batman fighting ALIENS? Five years ago? Huh? This is getting so bad, I cannot even joke about it. Explosions, cliches, and Batman fighting aliens. Apart from "5 years ago", this is the same stuff that kicked off the Morrison JLA relaunch, which is credited as one of the best times in the series. But Morrison is not writing Batman, at least anymore. His story will be wrapped up outside of continuity. And hey, was not Infinite Crisis an attempt to get AWAY from 'The Goddamn Batman'? Why are we cycling back again? I just do not get this. I really do not.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Jul 20, 2011 10:54:09 GMT -5
I'm not seeing where he mentioned Tim in that quote. In fact he pretty much says exactly the opposite that any character would be a new character. He isn't saying it. It's this discussion somewhere else that says it would be easy and obvious to make Tim gay. I was asking why him. because some people on the internet are idiots. if they were going to retcon someone as being gay, Tim's one of the LAST people in the world it'd fit. also, no need to ship Superman and Batman because we already have Apollo and Midnighter. I dunno, that Justice League teaser looks kinda bland to me. I wouldn't worry about them turning him into "The Goddamn Batman" until he starts getting written as a total mary sue who beats up Superman and kills police for the lulz though.
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Turd Ferguson
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Post by Turd Ferguson on Jul 20, 2011 11:54:22 GMT -5
Explosions, cliches, and Batman fighting aliens. Apart from "5 years ago", this is the same stuff that kicked off the Morrison JLA relaunch, which is credited as one of the best times in the series. But Morrison is not writing Batman, at least anymore. His story will be wrapped up outside of continuity. And hey, was not Infinite Crisis an attempt to get AWAY from 'The Goddamn Batman'? Why are we cycling back again? I just do not get this. I really do not. Do you mean Final Crisis?
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Legion
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Post by Legion on Jul 20, 2011 12:02:50 GMT -5
He isn't saying it. It's this discussion somewhere else that says it would be easy and obvious to make Tim gay. I was asking why him. because some people on the internet are idiots. if they were going to retcon someone as being gay, Tim's one of the LAST people in the world it'd fit. also, no need to ship Superman and Batman because we already have Apollo and Midnighter. I dunno, that Justice League teaser looks kinda bland to me. I wouldn't worry about them turning him into "The Goddamn Batman" until he starts getting written as a total mary sue who beats up Superman and kills police for the lulz though. To be fair, Tim would actually fit bisexual much more than either gay or straight simply down to the pragmatism of the idea that poleasure is pleasure and if you're going to get some who cares where it is from? Tim is very much a pragmatist and always has been, aside from the times he's been portrayed as obsessed by something, but even then he is very practicle about how he gets things done. On top of that, alot of the argument for making Tim gay isn't just idiots on the internet, but also a desire from some DC fans to actually see a strong male gay character, which DC does not have (Obsidian hasnt been used in any meaningful way in forever, and their male bi Starman was put in to a straight relationship. Lesbians on the other hand, DC has truck loads of them) as well as the fact that Tim is one of the few characters who has never really been in any serious or meaningful relationship in his twenty odd year run as Robin. As for Didio's comments, on the one hand, it would be good to see DC bring in a new gay teen character in Teen Titans, as I dont think the Titans have ever had a true gay character. Unfortunately it would appear he wants to create a character who is gay first and then a team member second, and I dont think people want to read that. Look at Young Avengers - yeah, Wiccan and Hulkling are a gay couple and its mentioned nearly every issue, but they are fleshed out characters who other things about them as well, Didio's description sounds more like he might authorise introduction of a token rather than a fleshed out gay male character.
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mattperiolat
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Post by mattperiolat on Jul 20, 2011 12:12:44 GMT -5
But Morrison is not writing Batman, at least anymore. His story will be wrapped up outside of continuity. And hey, was not Infinite Crisis an attempt to get AWAY from 'The Goddamn Batman'? Why are we cycling back again? I just do not get this. I really do not. Do you mean Final Crisis? No, Final Crisis is just Grant Morrison telling a confusing story. This, being the new 52, is what I do not get. I just do not get the justification for any of this.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Jul 21, 2011 10:04:46 GMT -5
because some people on the internet are idiots. if they were going to retcon someone as being gay, Tim's one of the LAST people in the world it'd fit. also, no need to ship Superman and Batman because we already have Apollo and Midnighter. I dunno, that Justice League teaser looks kinda bland to me. I wouldn't worry about them turning him into "The Goddamn Batman" until he starts getting written as a total mary sue who beats up Superman and kills police for the lulz though. To be fair, Tim would actually fit bisexual much more than either gay or straight simply down to the pragmatism of the idea that poleasure is pleasure and if you're going to get some who cares where it is from? Tim is very much a pragmatist and always has been, aside from the times he's been portrayed as obsessed by something, but even then he is very practicle about how he gets things done. On top of that, alot of the argument for making Tim gay isn't just idiots on the internet, but also a desire from some DC fans to actually see a strong male gay character, which DC does not have (Obsidian hasnt been used in any meaningful way in forever, and their male bi Starman was put in to a straight relationship. Lesbians on the other hand, DC has truck loads of them) as well as the fact that Tim is one of the few characters who has never really been in any serious or meaningful relationship in his twenty odd year run as Robin. As for Didio's comments, on the one hand, it would be good to see DC bring in a new gay teen character in Teen Titans, as I dont think the Titans have ever had a true gay character. Unfortunately it would appear he wants to create a character who is gay first and then a team member second, and I dont think people want to read that. Look at Young Avengers - yeah, Wiccan and Hulkling are a gay couple and its mentioned nearly every issue, but they are fleshed out characters who other things about them as well, Didio's description sounds more like he might authorise introduction of a token rather than a fleshed out gay male character. I must've imagined Stephanie Brown then.
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Legion
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Post by Legion on Jul 21, 2011 12:23:29 GMT -5
Note, I said serious and meaningful. While his relationship with Spoiler happened, she was on the rebound and he was never really in to her as was written, as much as he felt responsible for her and wanted to do right by her and almost 'do his duty' which again fits the pragmatic side of him who saw someone who needed comfort and thus offered it. It was also over a decade ago and since then, despite being in the Teen Titans with other girls his age, he was written very much as disinterested and perhaps from that, and the fact that he and Superboy clearly became good friends, people have drawn inferrences, that while not really there, could be shown if a writer wanted to, to indicate that Drake was more attached to Connor than anyone else in the team.
While he has clearly never been written purposely gay beyond a few tongue in cheek moments by certain wriiters pandering to a pretty well known sub set of fans, it isn't and wouldnt be remotely beyond belief for Tim Drake to go gay/bi.
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Post by Michael Coello on Jul 21, 2011 14:05:16 GMT -5
Well, as an update, I got a response that was pretty much that no one was saying Tim was gay (amid posts around them of "JUST HAVE HIM OUT OF THE CLOSET ALREADY!!!!") and that it was just plausible. I then ask about what makes it plausible, and someone else pointed to his relationship with Conner, in the intances where he hooked up with Wonder Girl cause she went out with Conner, and how he tried to clone him one time, plus several moments of art looking like unresolved sexual tension. Also, how he was introduced with Dick Grayson was a bit like a date, apparently.
Also, the general idea for this is more to have a gay character no one can easily push aside, as Tim is a big part of the DCU, so you have this person be front and center in a story instead of a side character you can ditch.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jul 21, 2011 14:13:24 GMT -5
Honestly, that would seem to be more jarring and insulting, to have a character who's never really been shown or even hinted at as anything other than straight ( even those mentions aren't really subtext) to suddenly 'become' gay or bi just for the sake of it.
Creating a character whose orientation was clearly defined from the outset would seem to be the much better thing to do, rather than shoehorning in character traits to fit later.
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Legion
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Post by Legion on Jul 21, 2011 14:19:45 GMT -5
It depends how you create that character. If you create a token and then have that token be a flaming stereotype, or a character whose only point iss to be there to remind you that they are gay, there is no point to them and no point them being there.
If you make a character who is rounded and interesting and have them being gay be something else that is just part of who they are, that would obviously be much better. In having a character like Tim come out, you have a character who isnt just a stereotype or a token, you have an important and front and centre character who can wave a rainbow flag, without the rainbow flag being the only point they are there.
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Fauxberg
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Post by Fauxberg on Jul 21, 2011 14:21:50 GMT -5
It depends how you create that character. If you create a token and then have that token be a flaming stereotype, or a character whose only point iss to be there to remind you that they are gay, there is no point to them and no point them being there. If you make a character who is rounded and interesting and have them being gay be something else that is just part of who they are, that would obviously be much better. In having a character like Tim come out, you have a character who isnt just a stereotype or a token, you have an important and front and centre character who can wave a rainbow flag, without the rainbow flag being the only point they are there. Exactly. Well summed up.
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Post by Big DSR Energy on Jul 21, 2011 16:30:08 GMT -5
It depends how you create that character. If you create a token and then have that token be a flaming stereotype, or a character whose only point iss to be there to remind you that they are gay, there is no point to them and no point them being there. If you make a character who is rounded and interesting and have them being gay be something else that is just part of who they are, that would obviously be much better. In having a character like Tim come out, you have a character who isnt just a stereotype or a token, you have an important and front and centre character who can wave a rainbow flag, without the rainbow flag being the only point they are there. Much like Northstar in Alpha Flight, it took a while before they actually had him "come out" but Claremont always intended that the character be gay. That wasn't all there was TO him (well, until later writers wrote him poorly), but it was an aspect of the character.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jul 21, 2011 16:33:47 GMT -5
It depends how you create that character. If you create a token and then have that token be a flaming stereotype, or a character whose only point iss to be there to remind you that they are gay, there is no point to them and no point them being there. If you make a character who is rounded and interesting and have them being gay be something else that is just part of who they are, that would obviously be much better. In having a character like Tim come out, you have a character who isnt just a stereotype or a token, you have an important and front and centre character who can wave a rainbow flag, without the rainbow flag being the only point they are there. Oh I agree; we're on the same page there. Northstar is a good example of a character that was pretty obviously gay from the get-go LONG before he came out; and it was just a part of who he was. Though honestly once they did the one issue where the big "reveal" happened, did they do anything else with that?
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Post by Big DSR Energy on Jul 21, 2011 16:45:41 GMT -5
It depends how you create that character. If you create a token and then have that token be a flaming stereotype, or a character whose only point iss to be there to remind you that they are gay, there is no point to them and no point them being there. If you make a character who is rounded and interesting and have them being gay be something else that is just part of who they are, that would obviously be much better. In having a character like Tim come out, you have a character who isnt just a stereotype or a token, you have an important and front and centre character who can wave a rainbow flag, without the rainbow flag being the only point they are there. Oh I agree; we're on the same page there. Northstar is a good example of a character that was pretty obviously gay from the get-go LONG before he came out; and it was just a part of who he was. Though honestly once they did the one issue where the big "reveal" happened, did they do anything else with that? Chuck Austen wrote him as though "GAY" was the only personality trait he had. After that, I dunno.
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Legion
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Post by Legion on Jul 21, 2011 16:50:28 GMT -5
He's used from time to time in Uncanny, usually written as Dazzler's gay best friend.
The Young Avengers Wiccan and Hulkling are better examples I think - they are a gay couple and it's mentioned nearly every issue, but they are also fun characters who are Kree-Skrull royalty, Scarlet Witch soul kid and all sorts of other things.
To be fair to DC, they have done lesbians very well, Batwoman by Rucka and Williams and Simone's Scandal Savage and various partners are all fleshed out characters who aren't just lesbians, it's just gay males that DC seem to suck at, with their most out character, Obsidian, basically getting backgrounded and lost in JSA for years
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