IWC opinions you disagree with

[TGM]

- When people claim a guy has been buried after a loss.
- The idea that Mic Skill and Charisma are the same thing.
- "Wrestler Y is great in the ring but doesn't have the mic skills"

[carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army)]

The idea that people who say "that guy was buried!" and the people who say "No he wasn't that wasn't burying!" are actually disagreeing about anything.



If I say someone was buried, I mean the person was deliberately made to look bad in a non-productive way on television. When other people say someone was buried, they mean systematically had their career ruined before being fired. Different ideas, different definitions of the word. But we're agreeing about what's actually happening.

[rapidfire187]

Mar 9, 2012 13:39:04 GMT -5 TGM said:

-
- "Wrestler Y is great in the ring but doesn't have the mic skills"

Huh? Are you saying that there's not any wrestlers who are good in the ring but not the mic? I think what you meant to say is that you disagree that it matters.

[kidkamikaze10]

I hate the idea that you need a big moveset to be good in the ring. It's HOW you use those moves that matter.

Stan Hansen has like twenty moves overall at best (and that's a hella stretch). Giant Baba probably less. Jumbo too.

They are great because of how they used their moves.


And this is an E problem and a IWC problem: pin moves = weak/pin move finish = weak finish, or lucky pin fall. When the hell does SKILL come to mind? It did when Bret was around. Why did it stop being that, and started becoming, "oh that was weak", "oh, that was a lucky pinfall."

Which leads me to another problem. Neo-South style (aka WWE style), isn't the only style in the business. Can we see some more diversity? Can the fans accept more diversity?

I remember people saying JBL was hella boring. Sometimes, that's true. Other times, it's just fans not accepting his style of wrestling. Same with Luchadors in general, besides Del Rio, who never liked the Lucha style in the first place.

[TGM]

Mar 9, 2012 14:10:17 GMT -5 rapidfire187 said:

Mar 9, 2012 13:39:04 GMT -5 TGM said:

-
- "Wrestler Y is great in the ring but doesn't have the mic skills"

Huh? Are you saying that there's not any wrestlers who are good in the ring but not the mic? I think what you meant to say is that you disagree that it matters.

I could have been a little clearer.

It annoys me when people claim that, say, for example, Shelton Benjamin was fantastic in the ring, but was terrible on the mic and use this as the reason why said wrestler will never get over. Like the only thing that is holding Shelton back are his mic skills (which aren't completely awful to begin with, certainly no worse than Randy Orton). People need to stop expecting all wrestlers to have Steve Austin levels of promo skill, and stop labelling a perfectly adequate promo as terrible.

I could have used MVP, Kofi, Heath, Justin in place of Shelton.

Okay, I just re-read it and realise that still isn't much clearer, sorry.

[Ian Austin]

doing the ridiculous Elimination Chamber match where he gets beaten by one sledgehammer shot

...

Did you not see the rest of the match? He destroyed Michaels, Orton and Jericho with ease. It took a Sledgehammer shot to beat him. Something that, even for Goldberg, is a logical way to take him down.

The booking was perfect. They made Goldberg a monster, but didn't give him the win because they realised there was more value in a match versus HHH one on one!

[donny]

Mar 9, 2012 17:47:05 GMT -5 TGM said:

Mar 9, 2012 14:10:17 GMT -5 rapidfire187 said:

Huh? Are you saying that there's not any wrestlers who are good in the ring but not the mic? I think what you meant to say is that you disagree that it matters.

I could have been a little clearer.

It annoys me when people claim that, say, for example, Shelton Benjamin was fantastic in the ring, but was terrible on the mic and use this as the reason why said wrestler will never get over. Like the only thing that is holding Shelton back are his mic skills (which aren't completely awful to begin with, certainly no worse than Randy Orton). People need to stop expecting all wrestlers to have Steve Austin levels of promo skill, and stop labelling a perfectly adequate promo as terrible.

I could have used MVP, Kofi, Heath, Justin in place of Shelton.

Okay, I just re-read it and realise that still isn't much clearer, sorry.

I get what you're trying to say and I agree completely. I really liked some of Shelton Benjamin's Gold Standard promos because he had really grown on the mic. I also remember the majority of people on the internet hated them. Not everyone is gonna have the charisma of the Rock. If a guy can get from Point A to Point B on a promo, that should be enough.

[Bo Rida]

I’ll never understand how people who never personally knew HBK can hold a grudge against him because he acted like a dick 15 years ago.
Even Bret Hart managed to forgive him.

I also don't think that it harms a mid-carder to lose to a beloved veteran.

Mar 9, 2012 13:39:04 GMT -5 TGM said:

The idea that Mic Skill and Charisma are the same thing.

Totally agree

[onestepplan]

Goldberg is a bad wrestler. The guy worked mostly squashes and even then he had the most impactful looking power moveset I've ever seen. When he went longer the matches were generally passable to good. He also worked a lot harder than he had to against Lesnar considering Lesnar didn't care and the fans were determined to s*** all over the match before the bell even rang.

[joebob27]

Mar 9, 2012 17:51:32 GMT -5 Ian Austin said:

doing the ridiculous Elimination Chamber match where he gets beaten by one sledgehammer shot

...

Did you not see the rest of the match? He destroyed Michaels, Orton and Jericho with ease. It took a Sledgehammer shot to beat him. Something that, even for Goldberg, is a logical way to take him down.

The booking was perfect. They made Goldberg a monster, but didn't give him the win because they realised there was more value in a match versus HHH one on one!

No, he needed to win there. That was the vehicle to get him over and they botched it.

Especially when he was on a one year deal with a specific amount of dates. You can't afford to waste a month.

[chunkylover53]

Here's one that will get me flamed - If John Tenta didn't die and was friends with RD Reynolds, nobody here would consider him a Hall of Famer. The only thing in his career that he was known for was injuring Hogan and making quakeburgers. After that, he hovered around the lower midcard in WCW and later returned to WWF under a mask in a jobber stable. This is not a knock on the guy personally, and its sad that he was struck with cancer, but if you give him a full career evaluation, calling him a legend or Hall of Famer is charitable at best. And yes, I know Koko is in.

Also, Muhammad Hassan was not sympathetic figure. Yes, in kayfabe he potrayed an Arab(I think he was half-Arab, half-Italian in real life, not sure) and stated that he was tired of being treated as a second-class citizen, the problem was, he was never discriminated against, he only played the race card when he didn't get his way. I can't see how interupting Mick Foley and Eugene when they are having their moment to go on an angry rant is considering sympathetic.

The fans weren't suppose to hate him because he felt discriminated, it was because he was egotistical, whiny, and pointed fingers at people who he only thought were doing the same to him. Its not hard to figure out.

The Ultimate Warrior CAN Cut Promos - Lets forget that WWE revisionist DVD they did because he wouldn't agree to be apart of it. Yeah, his promos were sometimes hard to decipher, but his late 90/early 91 work were a thing of beauty, especially during his feud with Randy "Macho Man" Savage. Plus, if they didn't have faith in him on the schtick, why did they give him so much mic time?

[gnr123]

John Cena is a bad wrestler.

[Cela]

Being an under 6 foot technical wrestler with subpar physique makes you a god.

[carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army)]

Mar 9, 2012 20:23:28 GMT -5 chunkylover53 said:

Also, Muhammad Hassan was not sympathetic figure. Yes, in kayfabe he potrayed an Arab(I think he was half-Arab, half-Italian in real life, not sure) and stated that he was tired of being treated as a second-class citizen, the problem was, he was never discriminated against, he only played the race card when he didn't get his way. I can't see how interupting Mick Foley and Eugene when they are having their moment to go on an angry rant is considering sympathetic.

The fans weren't suppose to hate him because he felt discriminated, it was because he was egotistical, whiny, and pointed fingers at people who he only thought were doing the same to him. Its not hard to figure out.

If that was the plan (and it was) they shouldn't have had his first feud be against Jim Lawler who told him "Love it or leave it!" (and they shouldn't).

It's not that people who find him sympathetic miss the fact that he was "Supposed to be a heel!" We know. We just think it beggars belief that any given American Muslim wouldn't have felt discrimination, and so we didn't buy it that this guy supposedly was just playing the race card. We thought he probably had a point and had earned his angry rants.
You know what also didn't help? Crowds chanting USA at him. It's hard to NOT sympathize with him when he's surrounded by thousands of people actively proving his point.

Like everything, it just depends on where you start. It doesn't help to point out he was supposed to be a heel like it's supposed to be news, though.

[rapidfire187]

Mar 9, 2012 17:47:05 GMT -5 TGM said:

Mar 9, 2012 14:10:17 GMT -5 rapidfire187 said:

Huh? Are you saying that there's not any wrestlers who are good in the ring but not the mic? I think what you meant to say is that you disagree that it matters.

I could have been a little clearer.

It annoys me when people claim that, say, for example, Shelton Benjamin was fantastic in the ring, but was terrible on the mic and use this as the reason why said wrestler will never get over. Like the only thing that is holding Shelton back are his mic skills (which aren't completely awful to begin with, certainly no worse than Randy Orton). People need to stop expecting all wrestlers to have Steve Austin levels of promo skill, and stop labelling a perfectly adequate promo as terrible.

I could have used MVP, Kofi, Heath, Justin in place of Shelton.

Okay, I just re-read it and realise that still isn't much clearer, sorry.

Yea, I know what you mean man. You're saying that people greatly exaggerated how bad a lot of guys are on the mic and how worthless that makes them.

[Perpetual Nirvana]

Mar 9, 2012 11:00:00 GMT -5 Chip Jordan said:

I sometimes feel like standing up and saying “I’m a twenty-seven year old heterosexual male and I like Rey Mysterio”. People who say someone so small can’t convincingly hang with main-eventers should be forced to watch his match with The Undertaker at 2010 Royal Rumble.

And if they still don’t agree they should be forced to watch Mickie James vs Michelle McCool from 2010 Royal Rumble as punishment.

Considering that match only goes like eight seconds I dunno how much punishment that would be.

[Arrow]

That heels champions like Miz need convincing, clean wins. JBL's WWE title reign in 2004 was awesome and I don't think he had a single decisive title defense.

[BigWill]

Mar 9, 2012 22:23:17 GMT -5 Cela said:

Being an under 6 foot technical wrestler with subpar physique makes you a god.

Huh? Who thinks like that?

[Perpetual Nirvana]

I do find it ironic that the people who frown on the whole "Punk/Bryan/other IWC favourite is God" thing take it more seriously than the people who originally said it. And I do have to wonder if they reacted the same way to "Foley is God" back in the day.

[Magic knows Black Lives Matter]

Mar 9, 2012 13:39:04 GMT -5 TGM said:

- The idea that Mic Skill and Charisma are the same thing.

THIS.