IWC opinions you disagree with

[klapaucius]

ratings matters to us.

[trollrogue]

Mar 8, 2012 17:38:38 GMT -5 kriskomet said:

The Rock has been s*** on the mic since he got back.

I seriously don't understand the logic here. When the fans in the live audience won't let the Rock's promo go for 5 seconds without starting a new chant based on what he said, it's golden.

Conversely, when Cena can't even avoid boos even in his hometown I'm sorry, but he's not 'embarrassing' the Rock in this feud. Not even a little.

[trollrogue]

Mar 9, 2012 10:14:28 GMT -5 @lovehater said:

Mar 9, 2012 9:57:05 GMT -5 Allie Kitsune said:

There's no doubt that Tajiri had a great run.

They mishandled Ultimo Dragon pretty badly (though he still got to work Mania at MSG like he wanted to), and if we're counting Middle Easterners (and people of Middle Eastern heritage), then no, Daivari didn't really do all that much either.

But that leads to something else.

I could be wrong about this, but I believe that by and large, there's been an internet stereotype that Black Wrestlers can't "work". Every now and then, you get the supposed "rule-proving exception" in a Shelton Benjamin or a Jay Lethal, but I still get the feeling there's a stereotype that they're awkward hosses like Ahmed Johnson, Bobby Lashley, or Ezekiel Jackson; or just otherwise unremarkable brawlers like Stevie Ray, Faarooq, or Godfather Shango. Or worse yet, that they're completely useless, like Virgil.

Booker and Rock (even if he claims to be more draft horse than black these days) made it to the top, but I don't know if anyone would say they were great "workers" either.

The industry needs a black Bret Hart to break that stereotype for good.

I have never come anywhere close to seeing this stereotype. Ron Simmons, Booker T, Shelton Benjamin, Kofi Kingston, Kenny King, all damn good, and get credit for it. The simple fact of the matter is this: there aren't as many black wrestlers as white wrestlers. Black people make up 12% of the population in the US, and they're even more of a minority in wrestling. So, of course there are going to be less of them that are in prominent positions, and in position to be called great workers.

Just an FYI, but the majority of Smackdown's matches yesterday had prominent Black wrestlers/stars in just bout every segment. Mark Henry (who was made to look like a billion dollars by the commentary when they put him in the same league as Schwarzenegger and other top body builders) versus Zeke. Teddy Long versus Johnny Ace (with Harvard-educated Otunga in his corner). R-truth and Kofi versus Los Colons.

As a Black fan of the WWE, I don't see any need for more improvement in terms of racial equality.

[Clawley Race]

the idea that MVP is good in the ring

[Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!!]

-people shouldn't complain about WWE's treatment of Chris Benoit. they don't pretend he never existed, they just don't promote him at all. which is the smart thing to do. I'd cringe if Michael Cole et al started going on rants about what a great wrestler Chris Benoit was. he was a great wrestler. he also murdered his family. it's impossible to bring up the former without it being clouded over by the latter.

-some guys (Kaval for example) just aren't meant to succeed in WWE. not everyone can be "the biggest star on the show" and some guys just aren't suited to the product WWE is putting out. and that's not a failure on the wrestler's part OR WWE's part. some things just aren't meant to be.

-The Rock was awesome when he first came back but I couldn't be arsed about his recent promos. he needs to do some serious deconstructing of John Cena's complaints about him (which would actually be pretty easy) or else this feud's lost me.

[Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!!]

Mar 8, 2012 18:47:42 GMT -5 xCompackx said:

I seriously don't get the idea that Triple H "buries" people. He got beat clean by Batista at WM 21, John Cena at 22 and less than cleanly by Randy Orton at 24. In fact he lost 3 times in a row to Batista. How is that "burying" anyone?

he buried Chris Jericho, Booker T, Rob Van Dam, Kane and even Randy Orton (first WHC reign) pretty thoroughly. hell CM Punk's one of the biggest stars in the company and this old dog turd couldn't bother putting him over cleanly. god forbid the company he has a vested interest in make new stars and thus make more money.

[Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!!]

Mar 9, 2012 9:57:05 GMT -5 Allie Kitsune said:

There's no doubt that Tajiri had a great run.

They mishandled Ultimo Dragon pretty badly (though he still got to work Mania at MSG like he wanted to), and if we're counting Middle Easterners (and people of Middle Eastern heritage), then no, Daivari didn't really do all that much either.

But that leads to something else.

I could be wrong about this, but I believe that by and large, there's been an internet stereotype that Black Wrestlers can't "work". Every now and then, you get the supposed "rule-proving exception" in a Shelton Benjamin or a Jay Lethal, but I still get the feeling there's a stereotype that they're awkward hosses like Ahmed Johnson, Bobby Lashley, or Ezekiel Jackson; or just otherwise unremarkable brawlers like Stevie Ray, Faarooq, or Godfather Shango. Or worse yet, that they're completely useless, like Virgil.

Booker and Rock (even if he claims to be more draft horse than black these days) made it to the top, but I don't know if anyone would say they were great "workers" either.

The industry needs a black Bret Hart to break that stereotype for good.

The Rock and Booker T are both fantastic workers. you don't have to be an astounding mat technician to be a great worker. hell, Steve Austin post-neck injury had people eating out of the palm of his hand and he was mostly a brawler.

[Magnus the Magnificent]

I just can't see the appeal in CM Punk.
He's a very talented wrestler and has good mic-skills, but for some reason he doesn't "click" with me.

[BigWill]

Mar 10, 2012 14:58:59 GMT -5 Magnus the Magnificent said:

I just can't see the appeal in CM Punk.
He's a very talented wrestler and has good mic-skills, but for some reason he doesn't "click" with me.

How can you say you don't see the appeal, when you just stated them right there?

[Bob Schlapowitz]

A title being traded around constantly devalues it and makes it worthless........

But any time someone holds a title for more than two months it's suddenly a "REIGN OF TERROR"......

Seriously, what the f***? There aren't enough of these to show how I feel about this.

[Deleted]

Mar 10, 2012 12:25:18 GMT -5 trollrogue said:

Mar 9, 2012 10:14:28 GMT -5 @lovehater said:

I have never come anywhere close to seeing this stereotype. Ron Simmons, Booker T, Shelton Benjamin, Kofi Kingston, Kenny King, all damn good, and get credit for it. The simple fact of the matter is this: there aren't as many black wrestlers as white wrestlers. Black people make up 12% of the population in the US, and they're even more of a minority in wrestling. So, of course there are going to be less of them that are in prominent positions, and in position to be called great workers.

Just an FYI, but the majority of Smackdown's matches yesterday had prominent Black wrestlers/stars in just bout every segment. Mark Henry (who was made to look like a billion dollars by the commentary when they put him in the same league as Schwarzenegger and other top body builders) versus Zeke. Teddy Long versus Johnny Ace (with Harvard-educated Otunga in his corner). R-truth and Kofi versus Los Colons.

As a Black fan of the WWE, I don't see any need for more improvement in terms of racial equality.

Yeah I noticed that too. I noticed it last month as well, which of course was black history month. I thought that WWE was making a concerted effort to feature more black wrestlers in February, though it may have been happening before and I didn't notice.

[El Cokehead del Knife Fight]

Mar 10, 2012 15:03:45 GMT -5 BigWill said:

Mar 10, 2012 14:58:59 GMT -5 Magnus the Magnificent said:

I just can't see the appeal in CM Punk.
He's a very talented wrestler and has good mic-skills, but for some reason he doesn't "click" with me.

How can you say you don't see the appeal, when you just stated them right there?

It's perfectly reasonable to acknowledge why a person would be popular but still not have it click with you.

[BigWill]

Mar 10, 2012 21:07:13 GMT -5 El Cokehead del Knife Fight said:

Mar 10, 2012 15:03:45 GMT -5 BigWill said:

How can you say you don't see the appeal, when you just stated them right there?

It's perfectly reasonable to acknowledge why a person would be popular but still not have it click with you.

I know that. But he said he can't see the appeal to Punk, as in he doesn't understand why people like him, despite acknowledging the fact that he's good in the ring and on the mic.

[Citizen Snips]

Mar 10, 2012 15:03:45 GMT -5 BigWill said:

Mar 10, 2012 14:58:59 GMT -5 Magnus the Magnificent said:

I just can't see the appeal in CM Punk.
He's a very talented wrestler and has good mic-skills, but for some reason he doesn't "click" with me.

How can you say you don't see the appeal, when you just stated them right there?

Perhaps he meant "idolatry" instead of "appeal". I get why people would like Punk but I don't see why a large percentage of his fans (around these boards at least) seem to think every match is a classic, every promo is leading to the next boom period and every action of his deserves an appreciation thread.

I love Hulk Hogan, someone who's had 1000x the impact CM Punk has, but I don't claim he can do no wrong. A lot of Punk fans genuinely come across like that.

[dlg3000]

Chris Benoit should be in the Hall of Fame.
-Personally, I don't think he should be in the Hall of Fame. He was a great wrestler, and that is all that matters. Not in this case at all. He killed the mother of his child and that said child and then killed himself. When he killed his child all of the accolades should have been forgotten about, regardless if he was mentally ill or brain damaged or whatever. There is no going back from that one.

John Cena sucks.
-John Cena is a good, competent wrestler in my opinion and don't understand why he gets the hate he gets.

CM Punk is truly the best in the world.
-I think that Daniel Bryan is slightly better than CM Punk, but I am in no way trying to take away from Punk's talent, but who is really the best in the grand scheme of things? Personally, I also think Dolph Ziggler is better.


Wrestling was better during the Attitude Era.
-I recall John Cena mentioning the Attitude Era was overrated. It was. The in-ring wrestling in my opinion is much better now than it was overall during the Attitude Era. The PG Era is not going to harm the business or the end all to be all or anything like that. Those who think that way need to relax.

Though it should be moved to the TNA/IW thread, I believe this one has to be said.
"TNA sucks."
- In my opinion, I like TNA and it is a good alternative to the WWE. They have good wrestlers overall with some who need more training and they sometimes take risks that fail. The booking isn't always solid either, but you have at least one women's match on the card each week that last longer than three minutes per two hour show. That is a good start. TNA can actually be quite entertaining once you give it a chance. I believe that every organization including the WWE has its "good and bad".

The Miz sucks or anything else negative they say about him.
-I think that only time will tell with the Miz. Granted, he isn't a great wrestler but he is obviously good enough for people to notice him, love him or hate him. He's an okay wrestler who has improved leaps and bounds and can hold his own in the ring or on the mic.

Christian is/was better than Edge.
- We will alll have to wait and see on this one.

[DrBackflipsHoffman]

Do people actually read what happens during internet discussions or does everyone just basically want to swedish penis pump themselves by pretending they're not part of some enormous all encompassing community that has massively differenig opinions?

[Kitty Shamrocks]

Mar 10, 2012 22:34:19 GMT -5 DrBackflipsHoffman said:

Do people actually read what happens during internet discussions or does everyone just basically want to swedish penis pump themselves by pretending they're not part of some enormous all encompassing community that has massively differenig opinions?

The second one.

[chunkylover53]

Mar 9, 2012 23:13:09 GMT -5 carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) said:

Mar 9, 2012 20:23:28 GMT -5 chunkylover53 said:

Also, Muhammad Hassan was not sympathetic figure. Yes, in kayfabe he potrayed an Arab(I think he was half-Arab, half-Italian in real life, not sure) and stated that he was tired of being treated as a second-class citizen, the problem was, he was never discriminated against, he only played the race card when he didn't get his way. I can't see how interupting Mick Foley and Eugene when they are having their moment to go on an angry rant is considering sympathetic.

The fans weren't suppose to hate him because he felt discriminated, it was because he was egotistical, whiny, and pointed fingers at people who he only thought were doing the same to him. Its not hard to figure out.

If that was the plan (and it was) they shouldn't have had his first feud be against Jim Lawler who told him "Love it or leave it!" (and they shouldn't).

It's not that people who find him sympathetic miss the fact that he was "Supposed to be a heel!" We know. We just think it beggars belief that any given American Muslim wouldn't have felt discrimination, and so we didn't buy it that this guy supposedly was just playing the race card. We thought he probably had a point and had earned his angry rants.
You know what also didn't help? Crowds chanting USA at him. It's hard to NOT sympathize with him when he's surrounded by thousands of people actively proving his point.

Like everything, it just depends on where you start. It doesn't help to point out he was supposed to be a heel like it's supposed to be news, though.

Just like any great heels, his rants had a grain of truth only to be stretched to the point where you can't sympathize with him anymore. My problem is people here justify his actions.

Let me ask you this, if somebody you just met, didn't even exchange words with you, called you a racist, without getting to know you, and then had somebody scream at you in Arabic(I know it was really Farsi), would you be able to emphasize with him? He basically did to the fans what he thought they were doing to him - stereotyping under preconcived notions.

If WWE brought him in as a character where he wants to prove not all Arabs/Muslims are terrorists, and have him fight off that reputation, then fans wouldn't boo him or chant USA at him, but that wasn't the case. Especially at the end of his debut promo where he praised Allah.

Anything that happened to him, he brought it upon himself. Plain and simple.

Oh, and I noticed a typo, you referred to Jerry Lawler as Jim Lawler.

[Nikki Heyman]

Mar 10, 2012 12:49:31 GMT -5 Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! said:

-people shouldn't complain about WWE's treatment of Chris Benoit. they don't pretend he never existed, they just don't promote him at all. which is the smart thing to do. I'd cringe if Michael Cole et al started going on rants about what a great wrestler Chris Benoit was. he was a great wrestler. he also murdered his family. it's impossible to bring up the former without it being clouded over by the latter.

However, WWE HAS erased Benoit in their WM publications that clearly advertise on the cover "EVERY wrestler" and "EVERY" match, where it doesn't even bother to talk about the MAIN EVENT OF WMXX.

I would settle for WWE at least acknowledging him in publications and video without heavy editing. Unfortunately, the only place I've seen it since that tragedy was the WWE encyclopedia.

Mar 10, 2012 12:52:41 GMT -5 Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! said:

Mar 8, 2012 18:47:42 GMT -5 xCompackx said:

I seriously don't get the idea that Triple H "buries" people. He got beat clean by Batista at WM 21, John Cena at 22 and less than cleanly by Randy Orton at 24. In fact he lost 3 times in a row to Batista. How is that "burying" anyone?

he buried Chris Jericho, Booker T, Rob Van Dam, Kane and even Randy Orton (first WHC reign) pretty thoroughly. hell CM Punk's one of the biggest stars in the company and this old dog turd couldn't bother putting him over cleanly. god forbid the company he has a vested interest in make new stars and thus make more money.

People forget that HHH was given the WHC by Eric Bischoff in September of 2002 to be re-introduced into the WWE continuity. The belt needed some prestige so it was given to their biggest heel at the time. I'll concede that HHH tends to bury Jericho (Jericho does not have a win over HHH in his career) but as for the others listed:

-Booker T supposedly called an audible at WM that he was injured so they weren't about to put a belt on an injured performer.

-RVD was probably still not all that trusted because of his recreationals - and while WWE didn't have Wellness testing at the time, having a World Champion busted for marijuana posession is still a black eye on your company, even pre-PG.

-Kane was still bouncing in the midcard as a b-belt and tag team champion, so I don't know if they were even seriously considering putting the world title on Kane at that time. Summer 03 is where he lost the mask and he went heel, so.....

-Orton's first WHC reign in 04 was ridiculously forced and not well-received. Even if I liked Orton, in 2004 you would have had a hard time convincing me that Orton could actually beat Chris Benoit in a fair fight.

This doesn't excuse HBK's win at Survivor Series 2002 - though IWC would shout "KLIQ", I think it was a "Thank you" reign for Shawn's return.

I also agree that HHH should have let Goldberg take the belt at Summerslam 2003, as Hunter was working hurt to begin with.

In sum, I think that the "Reign of Terror" was nothing more than an extended angle to make the World Heavyweight title important to WWE continuity again. Juggling it wouldn't have worked and some of those that HHH faced might have deserved it to the IWC but there are a lot of other factors that fit into this that are easier to forget and just say "OMG HHH Berries everyone LOL WTF".

[norsisclouds]

Mar 10, 2012 12:11:52 GMT -5 trollrogue said:

Mar 8, 2012 17:38:38 GMT -5 kriskomet said:

The Rock has been s*** on the mic since he got back.

I seriously don't understand the logic here. When the fans in the live audience won't let the Rock's promo go for 5 seconds without starting a new chant based on what he said, it's golden.

Conversely, when Cena can't even avoid boos even in his hometown I'm sorry, but he's not 'embarrassing' the Rock in this feud. Not even a little.

Agreed.

And I also have to second The Good Man's point...you can be charismatic and be shit on the mic, and conversely, there are plenty of great mic talkers who had shit charisma, like Sid Vicious or Lex Luger.