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Post by Error on Aug 20, 2012 22:50:44 GMT -5
Cena's half was good but I still don't get how Punk saying and doing what made him face a little over a year ago is now somehow making him a heel and it seems 3/4 the audience feels the same. cause he wasn't really a face a year ago. Once he went face to face with Vince (week 3 I think it was) on RAW and Cena fought for Punk to get his shot, he was face.
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Post by Snaptastic on Aug 20, 2012 22:51:10 GMT -5
And it seemed a majority saw Cena going over Rock What the hell is wrong with this board? No idea but I will say I saw Rock going over Cena the moment the match was made. I only started to have doubts when the bell rang to start the actual match itself.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Aug 20, 2012 22:52:44 GMT -5
And as Punk is the villain, that's a good thing. Everything in wrestling can't be about "legitamicy", sometimes it's just more fun to see an arrogant primadonna get put in their place. Punk's legacy will easily survive Cena's remarks, and it'll survive a (hopeful) Cena win at NoC.
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metylerca
King Koopa
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Post by metylerca on Aug 20, 2012 22:53:09 GMT -5
I want to meet the fans out there who hear this promo and go "Gee whiz, Cena said Punk's reign was worthless. Clearly it's true, and all those times I cheered him on, they were worthless too. What a promo, Cena!" Man, these fans do exist. Back in December fans at the bar I watch PPVs at were saying "CM Punk sux he couldn't beat Triple H or Randy Orton". I tried explaining "well yeah, but that was pre-determined, Punk's just really great at wrestling" and got "but he can't beat Randy Orton" in return. There's a lot more marky fans than some people realize. To those kids who liked Punk and cheering him on, and Cena was still their top dude, they totally ate up what he said tonight. Then as unrealistic as it sounds, Punk is going to need to change perceptions of that both on the mic and in the ring. Don't act like he isn't capable of it, either. People attribute where he's at to everybody but him. Someone seriously just blamed the producer and writer, instead of him. If he's as good as he's said to be, he'll make it work. And he has made it work before, so we all know it's true. The bias shines through in threads like these, methinks. He needs to bring his A game while he's champ. He's now in a program with Cena, and they work well together. I'm sure he'll rise further before this is all over, it's Punk. He's good enough.
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Post by The Portable Stove on Aug 20, 2012 22:53:48 GMT -5
Punk was the underdog then. Now, no matter where hes at on the card, he's dominant. Him coming out and saying what he's saying would be like Sheamus coming out and calling himself an underdog. It just doesnt make that much sense, and comes off as the rich wanting to be richer, rather than the oppressed rising up to take what they feel belongs to them. Punk is no longer the underdog, hes a dynasty! He has become the New York Yankees St Louis Cardinals. At least thats my view on why he isnt getting as much backing now as he was before. Is he really? Seems more like the...damn I suck at MLB....some team that won but people think it's a fluke to be honest. Everyone knows he's good but no one important thinks he's ready for the show. Arizona Diamondbacks? Well I mean, I don't follow baseball either, but there's the Diamondbacks, and there's the Yankees... Also, let's also put it this way, now that he's been brought up. Punk's been champion for 9 months, the Raw champion, WWE Champion. The WWE Championship was the most important title from Cena's second title win on. Punk's not the face of the show. Sheamus on the other hand, World Champion for five months, face of SmackDown AND a prominent part of Raw over the past few weeks along with his #1 Contender. I mean yeah, you can't compare Raw to Smackdown in any way, but as a wrestling fan, I'd be more inclined to believe that Sheamus is more important than Punk at this point. Even though his reign has been dreadful and this feud with Del Rio is terrible.
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comahan
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Post by comahan on Aug 20, 2012 22:55:20 GMT -5
Punk was the underdog then. Now, no matter where hes at on the card, he's dominant. Him coming out and saying what he's saying would be like Sheamus coming out and calling himself an underdog. It just doesnt make that much sense, and comes off as the rich wanting to be richer, rather than the oppressed rising up to take what they feel belongs to them. Punk is no longer the underdog, hes a dynasty! He has become the New York Yankees St Louis Cardinals. At least thats my view on why he isnt getting as much backing now as he was before. Is he really? Seems more like the...damn I suck at MLB....some team that won but people think it's a fluke to be honest. Everyone knows he's good but no one important thinks he's ready for the show. Well I used Cardinals because theyre the biggest rival to his favorite team (the perpetual underdog Chicago Cubs) and have a history of success, and are always contenders.
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Some Guy
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Post by Some Guy on Aug 20, 2012 22:56:13 GMT -5
And as Punk is the villain, that's a good thing. Everything in wrestling can't be about "legitamicy", sometimes it's just more fun to see an arrogant primadonna get put in their place. Punk's legacy will easily survive Cena's remarks, and it'll survive a (hopeful) Cena win at NoC. But he SHOULDN'T be the villain. They were supposed to establish him as maybe the next top guy last Summer, the guy who could actually be above Cena. With him losing to Cena, it would just establish that he can't be and no one is ever really gonna be above Cena at this point in time, despite how unbelievably stale he has become.
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Sc
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Post by Sc on Aug 20, 2012 22:56:55 GMT -5
What the hell is wrong with this board? No idea but I will say I saw Rock going over Cena the moment the match was made. I only started to have doubts when the bell rang to start the actual match itself. I knew Rock was going to win because Cena always loses to the faces in big home town matches. Lost to RVD at One Night Stand in NYC (not home town but close enough), lost to Punk in Chicago, and was definitely going to lose to Rock in Miami. When ever there is a "Cena's opponent loses = we riot" situation, Cena loses.
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Post by Starshine on Aug 20, 2012 22:57:18 GMT -5
By that same token though you can say for the past year that Cena HAS been the top face by providence, getting main events when he's not been champion just because he's John Cena. Punk's right there. His character may be whiny about it, but he's not wrong. Well of course Cena's going to get a healthy chunk of hype despite (the impatient) Punk being champion, he's a more established act. Again, going back to Cena's first couple of long reigns, he rarely ever closed out shows. It took him roughly a year and a half to become "top dog" after his WM21 win. Punk, in this instance, is like Oprah Winfrey throwing a temper tantrum and trying to paint herself as Oliver Twist because Forbes pays more lipservice towards Bill Gates as opposed to her. Cena was already basically established as top dog by the time WM22 rolled around. Also I seriously doubt your assumption that he rarely closed shows during those early reigns. Especially considering they were still selling those brand exclusive ppv's at the time, he wouldn't even be of half of them. Aside from some instances like the Michaels/Hogan and RAW/SmackDown SurSer matches, I'm struggling to think of a regular stretch where John Cena, defending his WWE Title, didn't close out a show in that period.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2012 22:57:39 GMT -5
Cena's promo on Punk was one of the best promos Cena's ever cut. Even better is the fact that you knew most of that came from Cena's heart. He meant what he said and that's what made it powerful. He needs to stay with more serious heartfelt promos and stay away from kiddy ones and it would work out best for him. After all that was said I truly do think Punk will lose the belt at Night of Champions. Besides Punk heeling it out, besides the fact that Cena's comments were the truth, besides the fact they've been constantly talking about how long he's held the belt and besides the fact that Cena's face is on the cover of Night of Champions practically saying "It's good to be home" we have this tonight. Until the ppv they're going to really be doing whatever it takes to make Punk as much of a heel asshole as possible so that when he loses it'll be deserved. It is what it is. Cena told the truth. It worked well. All is good. I cannot understand this logic. How was Cena telling the truth? Any truth he's telling is perpetuated by the way CM Punk has been booked. Punk was apparently told to go out there and speak in a deflated monotone about being disrespected, and then Cena went on a cheap-filled politician rant about earning respect instead of whining, further burying Punk's title reign in the process. If Punk really is complaining backstage, fine, but we have no way of knowing that. It's just like when Eve was written to tell Punk he had been overshadowed by everyone, like he actually has (again, due to the writing/format of the shows), and people were like "oh man, what a promo by Eve, she just owned Punk on the mic!" How? Did Punk choose to make himself Mr. 10 o'clock or Mr. Semi-main event champion? Of course not. He's getting "owned" for things that are completely out of his control, it's just stupid.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Aug 20, 2012 23:01:40 GMT -5
And as Punk is the villain, that's a good thing. Everything in wrestling can't be about "legitamicy", sometimes it's just more fun to see an arrogant primadonna get put in their place. Punk's legacy will easily survive Cena's remarks, and it'll survive a (hopeful) Cena win at NoC. But he SHOULDN'T be the villain. They were supposed to establish him as maybe the next top guy last Summer, the guy who could actually be above Cena. With him losing to Cena, it would just establish that he can't be and no one is ever really gonna be above Cena at this point in time, despite how unbelievably stale he has become. Why is any wrestling company "supposed" to book anyone a certain way? I can see it if the "Punk must replace Cena as top face" idea was a matter of making a story more logical, but it's just rooted in fanboyism.
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Post by cahuette on Aug 20, 2012 23:02:04 GMT -5
I don't get the "this is Cena's best promo in a while" or just best promo, wasn't that just a Cena promo? I mean it's ok, i used to find it good, but it's the same stuff all the time, pandering to the city, talking about respect, about how everyone has the right to boo him or not(he implied it), putting his big angry voice at a random point(he didn't do this tonight), mostly saying his opponent is not good enough if he doesn't beat him, he does this all the time.
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Arrow
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Post by Arrow on Aug 20, 2012 23:02:59 GMT -5
Cena main evented 3 pay-per-views during his first reign, and one of those was more about Shawn vs. Angle than it was him. Ever since Money in the Bank 2011, Punk main evented 5, one without the title involved. And by the time Cena got the belt back from Edge in LATE 2006, he'd already proved himself as the top guy, after playing second-fiddle to DX, Hogan, 'Taker, and Batista ever since winning the title at WrestleMania 21. The only time he took a backseat to D-X at a PPV was when he wasn't even the champ, as he lost it to RVD and then Edge won it back on a Raw. And again, this was Cena's reign, when the two titles were about equal with each other. Now, they are completely far apart and individual guys without titles are treated as bigger than the title. Cena never went EIGHT PPVs without headlining, especially on his fifth title reign in general. He took a backseat to DX not only on several episodes of Raw, but on the pay-per-view of his famous TLC match (DX vs. McMahons headlined). He also took a backseat on that year's Survivor Series to Batista. Even at the SummerSlam he and Edge headlined, it's arguable that DX/Vince & Shane was just as important. And that's not even getting into 2005. And I don't understand why you bring up his fifth title reign. By then he was already the undisputed top guy, earning that position after two years of sharing time with others. The only reason Cena didn't go eight PPVs without headlining is because of the brand split. Put 2005-2006 Cena in the same environment as Punk now, and he probably wouldn't have seen the main event at all.
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Some Guy
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Post by Some Guy on Aug 20, 2012 23:05:39 GMT -5
But he SHOULDN'T be the villain. They were supposed to establish him as maybe the next top guy last Summer, the guy who could actually be above Cena. With him losing to Cena, it would just establish that he can't be and no one is ever really gonna be above Cena at this point in time, despite how unbelievably stale he has become. Why is any wrestling company "supposed" to book anyone a certain way? I can see it if the "Punk must replace Cena as top face" idea was a matter of making a story more logical, but it's just rooted in fanboyism. Because he was getting bigger reactions than Cena. He was getting noticed in the mainstream media (and not the lousy celebrities WWE pretends that anyone cares about). He was creating a big stir. He was selling more shirts than Cena, the first time anyone had done that in eons. I hate bringing up TNA, but they weren't afraid to let Bobby Roode run with the ball as the champ. They don't seem afraid to let Austin Aries run with the ball. Granted, they have a firmly established viewership and it probably won't increase or decrease, but at least they're trying to put people above Kurt Angle or Jeff Hardy or Sting.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Aug 20, 2012 23:05:39 GMT -5
Is he really? Seems more like the...damn I suck at MLB....some team that won but people think it's a fluke to be honest. Everyone knows he's good but no one important thinks he's ready for the show. Well I used Cardinals because theyre the biggest rival to his favorite team (the perpetual underdog Chicago Cubs) and have a history of success, and are always contenders. The difference there is that unlike a certain excessively tattooed diva, the Cardinals- the reigning world champions- DO have a legit complaint as far as being overlooked. Compared to the likes of the Red Sox and Dodgers, they don't get the coverage they've earned. Punk (a Cubs fan, mind you) does.
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Post by Starshine on Aug 20, 2012 23:06:34 GMT -5
The only time he took a backseat to D-X at a PPV was when he wasn't even the champ, as he lost it to RVD and then Edge won it back on a Raw. And again, this was Cena's reign, when the two titles were about equal with each other. Now, they are completely far apart and individual guys without titles are treated as bigger than the title. Cena never went EIGHT PPVs without headlining, especially on his fifth title reign in general. He took a backseat to DX not only on several episodes of Raw, but on the pay-per-view of his famous TLC match (DX vs. McMahons headlined). He also took a backseat on that year's Survivor Series to Batista. Even at the SummerSlam he and Edge headlined, it's arguable that DX/Vince & Shane was just as important. And that's not even getting into 2005. A) No they didnt. Cena/Edge closed Unforgiven 06. B) Cena wasn't defending his title at that Survivor Series. It made sense to close the show with a big title change instead of some forgettable Survivor Series tag. C) He still closed SummerSlam regardless of how television was booked at that time. Please get into 2005 for me.
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Post by primetime110 on Aug 20, 2012 23:07:18 GMT -5
And that is entirely the fault of the bookers and producers. Wait that's not fair. If we can attribute ratings success to Punk when they happen, he surely has to take the blame when his segments tank in the ratings. Excatly. If he gets the credit, he gets the blame.
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Post by The Portable Stove on Aug 20, 2012 23:07:42 GMT -5
The only time he took a backseat to D-X at a PPV was when he wasn't even the champ, as he lost it to RVD and then Edge won it back on a Raw. And again, this was Cena's reign, when the two titles were about equal with each other. Now, they are completely far apart and individual guys without titles are treated as bigger than the title. Cena never went EIGHT PPVs without headlining, especially on his fifth title reign in general. He took a backseat to DX not only on several episodes of Raw, but on the pay-per-view of his famous TLC match (DX vs. McMahons headlined). Cena and Edge main evented. In fact, there were two matches BETWEEN DX's match and Cena's match.
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Arrow
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Post by Arrow on Aug 20, 2012 23:09:13 GMT -5
He took a backseat to DX not only on several episodes of Raw, but on the pay-per-view of his famous TLC match (DX vs. McMahons headlined). Cena and Edge main evented. In fact, there were two matches BETWEEN DX's match and Cena's match. Yeah, you're right. I don't know why I got those two mixed up.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2012 23:09:48 GMT -5
Well I used Cardinals because theyre the biggest rival to his favorite team (the perpetual underdog Chicago Cubs) and have a history of success, and are always contenders. The difference there is that unlike a certain excessively tattooed diva, the Cardinals- the reigning world champions- DO have a legit complaint as far as being overlooked. Compared to the likes of the Red Sox and Dodgers, they don't get the coverage they've earned. Punk (a Cubs fan, mind you) does. The entire crux of this angle, and this discussion, is the fact that Punk isn't main eventing any shows despite being the WWE champ. Remember the build up to Mania for his match with Jericho? No, you neither? That was pathetic for the top title in wrestling on the biggest show in wrestling. He's not getting the coverage he deserves as champ, people have been saying that for months and now he's saying it himself. It's all part of the bigger problem in WWE. They don't let anyone get to Cena's level, which is on the level of all the "legends" (HBK/Trips/Taker/Rock/Lesnar). They're afraid to let the ratings lull a bit to establish someone, and why would they since they can just trot out one of those 5 guys whenever they feel like and pop a number? But one day, those guys will all be gone for good, and WWE will be a wasteland of untapped potential. If things continue like this, I'm probably going to be out before that happens though. I honestly can't think of a worse heel turn right now, it's so poorly executed and makes so little sense to do with someone that has actually connected strongly with the fans, instead of turning someone like Sheamus who hasn't quite done that yet.
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