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Post by Friday Night SmackOwn on Aug 20, 2012 23:10:44 GMT -5
Why didn't Cena rescue King then at the end?
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Post by "Trickster Dogg" James Jesse on Aug 20, 2012 23:12:28 GMT -5
I'm sure the match will be good, but I can't say I'm excited for Cena/Punk mic battles leading up to NoC like I was for last year's MITB given that I still can't get into Punk's heel turn (neither can he, it seems) and Cena's the exact same character he was last year.
With this angle, Punk needed something that would have the same impact as his original 'pipebomb' promo. But he hasn't given that promo. Given the way the character's being booked, I can't see it happening any time soon. Cena had an okay promo tonight, but there wasn't anything that was stand-out on his end either. This year's Cena/Punk feud feels forced and contrived and is less interesting and entertaining because of these things.
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Arrow
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Post by Arrow on Aug 20, 2012 23:15:37 GMT -5
Please get into 2005 for me. Fine. After Cena wins the title: - Cena vs. JBL main events Judgment Day. - HHH vs. Batista main events Vengeance. - Hogan vs. HBK main events SummerSlam. - Cena vs. Angle main events Unforgiven. - Cena vs. Angle vs. HBK main events Taboo Tuesday. As I remember it, there was more focus on Angle/HBK than Cena. - Survivor Series elimination/Undertaker's return main events SS. So in the entire year of 2005, Cena main evented three pay-per-views, one on SD! and two on Raw. In comparison, Punk main evented FIVE pay-per-views in 2011, one of them without even being champion. Even on the night of his title win, Batista is the bigger deal. Much like Punk today, Cena only main evented when there was no one more important than he was. I'll concede that I got that wrong about 2006, but even then that's after a year of being in the second place to Shawn, HHH, Batista, and Hogan. Much like Punk today, Cena still had to make room for the more important people. He earned the position of being the top guy only after a prolonged time sharing his spot with the others.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Aug 20, 2012 23:18:58 GMT -5
The entire crux of this angle, and this discussion, is the fact that Punk isn't main eventing any shows despite being the WWE champ. Remember the build up to Mania for his match with Jericho? No, you neither? That was pathetic for the top title in wrestling on the biggest show in wrestling. He's not getting the coverage he deserves as champ, people have been saying that for months and now he's saying it himself. No, I remember Punk/Y2J extremely well, I think it got the amount of hype it deserved since it was on the same show as Rock/Cena. Really, I just don't feel the need to be outraged over any of Punk's booking at this point. I know that's his rallying point and all, and that's probably what Punk and WWE are going for, but let's be real- he's already an industry icon and a HOF lock. Like Cena, there's very little left for him to do, and he's said as such. His doghouse got thrown out with the pimp suit.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2012 23:22:23 GMT -5
Man, these fans do exist. Back in December fans at the bar I watch PPVs at were saying "CM Punk sux he couldn't beat Triple H or Randy Orton". I tried explaining "well yeah, but that was pre-determined, Punk's just really great at wrestling" and got "but he can't beat Randy Orton" in return. There's a lot more marky fans than some people realize. To those kids who liked Punk and cheering him on, and Cena was still their top dude, they totally ate up what he said tonight. Then as unrealistic as it sounds, Punk is going to need to change perceptions of that both on the mic and in the ring. Don't act like he isn't capable of it, either. People attribute where he's at to everybody but him. Someone seriously just blamed the producer and writer, instead of him. If he's as good as he's said to be, he'll make it work. And he has made it work before, so we all know it's true. The bias shines through in threads like these, methinks. He needs to bring his A game while he's champ. He's now in a program with Cena, and they work well together. I'm sure he'll rise further before this is all over, it's Punk. He's good enough. He has brought his A game as champ. What exactly could he have done differently with the material he's been given? He's been great in the ring, the best he's ever been. Promo-wise he was typical WWE babyface, because that's what they want him to be. He got over by getting to go out with a live mic and air his grievances, and it worked spectacularly. So it's shown that when Punk gets the chance, he knocks it out of the park. This "show me respect" angle is so trite, what can you do with that? Especially when the other guy is written to kill your cred and talk about how your reign means nothing. And Punk didn't even try to retort, he just called Jerry Lawler into the ring. Talent only goes so far in WWE these days, the writing makes or breaks you a lot of the time. It's breaking CM Punk right now. He's almost as boring as Edge was in 2010. Almost.
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Post by thelonewolf527 on Aug 20, 2012 23:24:07 GMT -5
This, basically. Punk had NO reason to take a backseat to Cena feuding with Kane, or Cena feuding with Show, or Cena feuding with Ace, or the MITB match. Instead of this being based on a tweener Punk pointing out that he deserves a chance to show that he can be the guy, he's a whiny heel while always face Cena is right. And I'm tired of everyone having to be a heel to cater to Cena, it's frustrating...especially after they finally figured it out last year with Punk. Exactly. They had a CM Punk who was outpopping Cena on a nightly basis, so what did they do? Paired him up with Triple H to make him look like a tool and turned him into a backseat nobody. I can't stand face CM Punk but when he gets over by his own ability and he's putting on great main events, what on earth is the possible benefit of tearing him down? What, just to make John Cena look good again? Hogan, Austin, Rock, etc. were all main eventers for shorter spans of time than Cena's been. THOSE GUYS. Seriously, why does Cena have to still be the focus of the show? Why does it have to be about him again? It's utterly pointless. Nightly basis is something I don't agree with. Cena outpopped Punk plenty of times on Raw, and from house show reports, a lot of them as well. Why does the show have to be about Cena? Maybe because he's the top draw? Because he draws the best ratings? Because he attracts the most people? Because the most people like him? That's how wrestling works. It's not about who has the best in ring skills or who's the best on the microphone, it's about who attracts the most people and that right now is above and beyond John Cena. That's why Punk's argument fails. He can say all he wants that he should be the focus and shouldn't take a back seat to The Rock, but that was the money match. That's what people wanted to see most. It doesn't matter if Punk's the champion, if he's not drawing as well as Cena, then he doesn't deserve the focus. People can try and come up with a whole plethora of excuses for why WWE hasn't put so much focus on CM Punk that much, and by come up with excuses I mean come up with reasons to bash WWE.
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Post by Some Guy on Aug 20, 2012 23:24:34 GMT -5
Please get into 2005 for me. Fine. After Cena wins the title: - Cena vs. JBL main events Judgment Day. - HHH vs. Batista main events Vengeance. - Hogan vs. HBK main events SummerSlam. - Cena vs. Angle main events Unforgiven. - Cena vs. Angle vs. HBK main events Taboo Tuesday. As I remember it, there was more focus on Angle/HBK than Cena. - Survivor Series elimination/Undertaker's return main events SS. So in the entire year of 2005, Cena main evented three pay-per-views, one on SD! and two on Raw. Even on the night of his title win, Batista is the bigger deal. Much like Punk today, Cena only main evented when there was no one more important than he was. I'll concede that I got that wrong about 2006, but even then that's after a year of being in the second place to Shawn, HHH, Batista, and Hogan. Much like Punk today, Cena still had to make room for the more important people. He earned the position of being the top guy only after a prolonged time sharing his spot with the others. But again, this isn't Punk's first reign. This isn't his third year in the company, and the titles aren't equal. Triple H is mostly gone, Orton is marginalized, Hogan is gone, Taker is mostly gone, Rock has been there once, Shawn is gone (outside of angle whoring), Batista is gone, etc. Cena's first title reign was just the beginning of his establishment, and he gradually broke through the glass ceiling as he won more and more defenses. Punk, on the other hand, broke through the glass ceiling by beating Cena (after three World title reigns), and then by taking the title back at Survivor Series. But, he's been marginalized in a way that Cena could only even dream of, with him getting maybe 4 segments all year to end Raw before Cena came along.
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Jonathan Michaels
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Post by Jonathan Michaels on Aug 20, 2012 23:26:10 GMT -5
Then as unrealistic as it sounds, Punk is going to need to change perceptions of that both on the mic and in the ring. Don't act like he isn't capable of it, either. People attribute where he's at to everybody but him. Someone seriously just blamed the producer and writer, instead of him. If he's as good as he's said to be, he'll make it work. And he has made it work before, so we all know it's true. The bias shines through in threads like these, methinks. He needs to bring his A game while he's champ. He's now in a program with Cena, and they work well together. I'm sure he'll rise further before this is all over, it's Punk. He's good enough. He has brought his A game as champ. What exactly could he have done differently with the material he's been given? He's been great in the ring, the best he's ever been. Promo-wise he was typical WWE babyface, because that's what they want him to be. He got over by getting to go out with a live mic and air his grievances, and it worked spectacularly. So it's shown that when Punk gets the chance, he knocks it out of the park. This "show me respect" angle is so trite, what can you do with that? Especially when the other guy is written to kill your cred and talk about how your reign means nothing. And Punk didn't even try to retort, he just called Jerry Lawler into the ring. Talent only goes so far in WWE these days, the writing makes or breaks you a lot of the time. It's breaking CM Punk right now. He's almost as boring as Edge was in 2010. Almost. This man's assessments are accurate.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2012 23:26:36 GMT -5
The entire crux of this angle, and this discussion, is the fact that Punk isn't main eventing any shows despite being the WWE champ. Remember the build up to Mania for his match with Jericho? No, you neither? That was pathetic for the top title in wrestling on the biggest show in wrestling. He's not getting the coverage he deserves as champ, people have been saying that for months and now he's saying it himself. No, I remember Punk/Y2J extremely well, I think it got the amount of hype it deserved since it was on the same show as Rock/Cena. Really, I just don't feel the need to be outraged over any of Punk's booking at this point. I know that's his rallying point and all, and that's probably what Punk and WWE are going for, but let's be real- he's already an industry icon and a HOF lock. Like Cena, there's very little left for him to do, and he's said as such. His doghouse got thrown out with the pimp suit. He's only been a solid main eventer for a year (flirted with it before but only in 2-3 month spurts), and he's not main eventing shows despite being champion. It's disingenuous to compare him to Cena in the "there's nothing left for him" department, seeing as Cena's a 10 time WWE champ and has been a main eventer for 7 years straight, has headlined Wrestlemania beaten Triple H etc.
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Post by Widow's Peak on Aug 20, 2012 23:30:27 GMT -5
I'm sure the match will be good, but I can't say I'm excited for Cena/Punk mic battles leading up to NoC like I was for last year's MITB given that I still can't get into Punk's heel turn (neither can he, it seems) and Cena's the exact same character he was last year. With this angle, Punk needed something that would have the same impact as his original 'pipebomb' promo. But he hasn't given that promo. Given the way the character's being booked, I can't see it happening any time soon. Cena had an okay promo tonight, but there wasn't anything that was stand-out on his end either. This year's Cena/Punk feud feels forced and contrived and is less interesting and entertaining because of these things. Punk isn't going to deliver another "pipebomb" anytime soon. Why? Because the people would get behind it. WWE wants the people to utterly hate him, so they are going the whiny heel route. It sucks that they can't seem to build a heel these days without completely de-legitimizing them, but what are they going to do? Wild theory here: There have been rumblings that he is considering retiring soon (although he hasn't given a definitive date), so maybe the WWE doesn't want to push Punk as the "top guy" when he is probably going to be gone soon. They surely see him as "one of" the top guys, but not a lifer like Cena.
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Post by Todd's crazy , Man. on Aug 20, 2012 23:32:30 GMT -5
Saying that Cena deconstructed Punk is like saying a Gerbil deconstructed The Works of Thoreau. You may love gerbils and they may never give up but they aren't an intellectuals match for Thoreau.
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Post by Some Guy on Aug 20, 2012 23:33:55 GMT -5
Exactly. They had a CM Punk who was outpopping Cena on a nightly basis, so what did they do? Paired him up with Triple H to make him look like a tool and turned him into a backseat nobody. I can't stand face CM Punk but when he gets over by his own ability and he's putting on great main events, what on earth is the possible benefit of tearing him down? What, just to make John Cena look good again? Hogan, Austin, Rock, etc. were all main eventers for shorter spans of time than Cena's been. THOSE GUYS. Seriously, why does Cena have to still be the focus of the show? Why does it have to be about him again? It's utterly pointless. Nightly basis is something I don't agree with. Cena outpopped Punk plenty of times on Raw, and from house show reports, a lot of them as well. Why does the show have to be about Cena? Maybe because he's the top draw? Because he draws the best ratings? Because he attracts the most people? Because the most people like him? That's how wrestling works. It's not about who has the best in ring skills or who's the best on the microphone, it's about who attracts the most people and that right now is above and beyond John Cena. That's why Punk's argument fails. He can say all he wants that he should be the focus and shouldn't take a back seat to The Rock, but that was the money match. That's what people wanted to see most. It doesn't matter if Punk's the champion, if he's not drawing as well as Cena, then he doesn't deserve the focus. People can try and come up with a whole plethora of excuses for why WWE hasn't put so much focus on CM Punk that much, and by come up with excuses I mean come up with reasons to bash WWE. How is anyone else supposed to be a draw, exactly, when they bring in the old guard constantly and show every possible new draw as inferior?
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Arrow
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Arrow on Aug 20, 2012 23:34:46 GMT -5
Punk, on the other hand, broke through the glass ceiling by beating Cena (after three World title reigns), and then by taking the title back at Survivor Series. But, he's been marginalized in a way that Cena could only even dream of, with him getting maybe 4 segments all year to end Raw before Cena came along. It can't be helped if Cena's still more important than him. They even alluded to that in the promo, with Punk mentioning all of Cena's fans. My point this entire time has been that people will always take a backseat the bigger stars, and Cena is a bigger star than CM Punk is. Even strictly in kayfabe, WWE Champion or not, Cena is the "face of the WWE". In his first three reigns, Cena had the ability to become just as popular/big a star as DX, 'Taker, and Batista. He broke the class ceiling at WrestleMania 21, and still had to work to become the top guy. Punk's still getting to that point. Until he does (or if he ever does), he'll take a backseat to Cena, and the special attractions whenever they show up. That's how things have always been.
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Post by misconduct was wrong on Aug 20, 2012 23:37:19 GMT -5
I guess the whole problem I have with this is that you can't talk about it without bringing up booking or kayfabe or other "insider" stuff. It's not so much Punk vs Cena as it is the booking of Punk vs the booking of Cena. Well ya... but mixing kayfabe and booking into the same conversation leads to complete and utter chaos. On topic. I don't think one guy is completely right and one guy is completely wrong. Sure Cena played second fiddle back in the day and didn't whine, but then he got his main events. Punk has been champion multiple times and has played second and third fiddle through his WHC and now WWE champ reigns and now after beating 2 guys in 1 night TWICE. He's had it. Civil War: I'm with Punk
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Aug 20, 2012 23:37:45 GMT -5
If true, there you go. If he's not interested in carrying the company on his back as an ambassador, why force it?
Five or ten years from now, I think his performances will be in the forefront of people's minds with him, as opposed to how he was booked. (Hopefully even moreso with Cena, but that's another subject).
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2012 23:43:24 GMT -5
Saying that Cena deconstructed Punk is like saying a Gerbil deconstructed The Works of Thoreau. You may love gerbils and they may never give up but they aren't an intellectuals match for Thoreau. Imagining this in Robbie E's voice makes it a million times better.
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Post by Lance Uppercut on Aug 20, 2012 23:44:44 GMT -5
Wait, is it February 2012 again? Such a heated debate for an angle that people keep dragging real life points into their kayfabe arguments and taking things way too personally.
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Arrow
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Arrow on Aug 20, 2012 23:45:38 GMT -5
Wait, is it February 2012 again? Such a heated debate for an angle that people keep dragging real life points into their kayfabe arguments and taking things way too personally. Who's taking it personally? It's just a fun discussion.
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saintpat
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Post by saintpat on Aug 20, 2012 23:46:05 GMT -5
I guess I'm mostly scratching my head over some of this:
1) Punk should have main evented over Rock-Cena, Brock-Cena or Brock-HHH? Seriously?
2) The greats find a way to make it work. If, as his supporters maintain, Punk is mailing it in because he doesn't like this particular angle, he's not ready to be the man. Hogan and Austin and Rock and Cena weren't booked to their liking 24-7-365, yet they seemed to always bring their A game to every angle whether it worked or not.
3) If the chief complaint is that CMP hasn't been main eventing PPVs or treated like his match is the most important, well, if he does face Cena next does he or any of his supporters think that Punk-Cena will be the opener at the next PPV? If that's what he and his people want, they should be giddy over this rather than spitting on it. If he can't get into this, he doesn't deserve the top spot.
4) From my point of view, the 'best in the world' thing is a vanity deal that is set up for him to eventually get his comeuppance. That's his character, the snide and snotty guy who's better than he looks, better than people recognize. But when he gets full enough of himself, as he is now, he's ripe to get taken down a peg -- and when that happens he becomes an angry young man again and his character gains even more of an edge and he grows. He can't be champ forever. Seems like a LOT of his most ardent admirers have settled on some idea that if he doesn't have a completely dominant 24-month reign then somehow WWE is defecating on him and undermining his potential. If that's true, at least admit that WWE has basically done that to everyone since Hogan, so they aren't exactly picking on him.
Tonight's promo has generated more interest than any single thing (not an entire angle, but a single segment) in a long time. And there's a nice split. So I'd say it worked.
My other thought is I often find that fans -- true, dedicated, hard-core fans -- of a particular wrestler often take on some of that guy's characteristics in their fandom. Stone Cold fans are/were wanting to give everyone the finger. Cena fans are a little goody-goody and Fruity-Loopy. Orton fans hear voices in their heads (that's the only way I can explain them being Orton fans, heh-heh). Jericho fans are arrogant in proclaiming his brilliance. And it seems to me that CM Punk fans are often a whiny lot.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2012 23:46:42 GMT -5
Nightly basis is something I don't agree with. Cena outpopped Punk plenty of times on Raw, and from house show reports, a lot of them as well. Why does the show have to be about Cena? Maybe because he's the top draw? Because he draws the best ratings? Because he attracts the most people? Because the most people like him? That's how wrestling works. It's not about who has the best in ring skills or who's the best on the microphone, it's about who attracts the most people and that right now is above and beyond John Cena. That's why Punk's argument fails. He can say all he wants that he should be the focus and shouldn't take a back seat to The Rock, but that was the money match. That's what people wanted to see most. It doesn't matter if Punk's the champion, if he's not drawing as well as Cena, then he doesn't deserve the focus. People can try and come up with a whole plethora of excuses for why WWE hasn't put so much focus on CM Punk that much, and by come up with excuses I mean come up with reasons to bash WWE. How is anyone else supposed to be a draw, exactly, when they bring in the old guard constantly and show every possible new draw as inferior? People just don't get it. When you make the big shows all about 5 guys who aren't around all the time, it makes guys like Punk look minor league. Punk's done the best he can do, but in today's homogenzied, super-controlled environment, what he can do is fundamentally limited. Cena, Orton, and Batista, since them no one has really gotten a chance. Triple H put all those guys over, by the way. The only way to get over is to beat Cena, Rock, Taker, Trips, HBK, or Lesnar, but all those guys just work with each other. Punk got 2 wins over Cena, neither clean, and they just took Cena out of the title picture while Punk was midcard champ beating Ziggler and Jericho like drums. And now, they turn it against him in an angle, "you got overshadowed!" Such bs.
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