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Post by Starshine on Aug 20, 2012 23:47:46 GMT -5
Please get into 2005 for me. Fine. After Cena wins the title: - Cena vs. JBL main events Judgment Day. - HHH vs. Batista main events Vengeance. - Hogan vs. HBK main events SummerSlam. - Cena vs. Angle main events Unforgiven. - Cena vs. Angle vs. HBK main events Taboo Tuesday. As I remember it, there was more focus on Angle/HBK than Cena. - Survivor Series elimination/Undertaker's return main events SS. So in the entire year of 2005, Cena main evented three pay-per-views, one on SD! and two on Raw. In comparison, Punk main evented FIVE pay-per-views in 2011, one of them without even being champion. Even on the night of his title win, Batista is the bigger deal. Much like Punk today, Cena only main evented when there was no one more important than he was. I'll concede that I got that wrong about 2006, but even then that's after a year of being in the second place to Shawn, HHH, Batista, and Hogan. Much like Punk today, Cena still had to make room for the more important people. He earned the position of being the top guy only after a prolonged time sharing his spot with the others. But you also have to take into cinsideration that this is 3 out of only 6 shows that Cena didn't close as champion due to the brand split situation of the period. Compare that to Punk's (since, but not including winning the belt at MITB of Survivor Series) has closed the show as defending champion 2 (SummerSlam, TLC) out of 10 shows. That's a very big difference between the two.
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Post by Friday Night SmackOwn on Aug 20, 2012 23:47:52 GMT -5
I'm a guy who likes both guys, actually, so, um......something?
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Aug 20, 2012 23:48:15 GMT -5
Wait, is it February 2012 again? Such a heated debate for an angle that people keep dragging real life points into their kayfabe arguments and taking things way too personally. Who's taking it personally? It's just a fun discussion.
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kidglov3s
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by kidglov3s on Aug 20, 2012 23:50:15 GMT -5
Please get into 2005 for me. Fine. After Cena wins the title: - Cena vs. JBL main events Judgment Day. - HHH vs. Batista main events Vengeance. - Hogan vs. HBK main events SummerSlam. - Cena vs. Angle main events Unforgiven. - Cena vs. Angle vs. HBK main events Taboo Tuesday. As I remember it, there was more focus on Angle/HBK than Cena. - Survivor Series elimination/Undertaker's return main events SS. So in the entire year of 2005, Cena main evented three pay-per-views, one on SD! and two on Raw. In comparison, Punk main evented FIVE pay-per-views in 2011, one of them without even being champion. Even on the night of his title win, Batista is the bigger deal. Much like Punk today, Cena only main evented when there was no one more important than he was. I'll concede that I got that wrong about 2006, but even then that's after a year of being in the second place to Shawn, HHH, Batista, and Hogan. Much like Punk today, Cena still had to make room for the more important people. He earned the position of being the top guy only after a prolonged time sharing his spot with the others. But was Cena going on second in title reigns before non-title non-events like Kane/Cena, Big Show/Cena or Ace/Cena (love you Johnny Ace, People Power forever)? At Money in the Bank, John Cena being a participant in a match to win a title shot takes precedence over CM Punk's actual title match. 2005 is a very different time than 2012. In an attempt to adjust for contemporary wrestling practices, let's just compare 2009, 2010, 2011 to 2012 PPVs in terms of whether or not a world title main evented: 2009: N, N, Y, Y, Y, Y, Y, Y, Y, Y, N, Y, Y, N 2010: N, Y, N, Y, Y, Y, Y, N, Y, Y, Y, Y, N 2011: N, N, Y, Y, Y, Y, Y, Y, N, Y, Y, N, Y 2012: N, N, N, N, N, N, N, N One of these rows is not like the others. One of these rows just doesn't belong.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2012 23:52:13 GMT -5
I honestly think that promo by Cena was one of the most interesting ways I've seen a wrestler gain number one contendership. Usually we see "c'mon tough guy, you're scared aren't you?" or just flat out violence to bring it to a personal level.
How Cena just eloquently laid out his stance on what CM Punk is going through, put on a pretty fierce argument to a point where Punk really has no choice, choosing anyone else would be a copout.
I also didn't like the "you blew a kiss to Vince McMahon and no one remembers what happened since then" comment because it just perpetuates the notion in WWE that wins/losses don't matter. Cena writes CM Punk's title reign as forgettable because he's simply winning matches, he's not embarking on home invasions or spraying his rivals with his favorite beverage, creating "moments". He's just winning matches. That attitude in the WWE drives me nuts, things like Booker telling Hawkins and Reks that they aren't doing enough to stand out, so they go out and perform stripteases that will get more results than winning matches ever would. I really despise how in kayfabe, the things superstars have to do in order to make any career advancement.
That aside, it was still a phenomenal promo, and one of the best shut down a whiny heel promos I've ever heard. No schoolground insults, nothing blatantly disrespectful, it was awesome.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2012 23:55:36 GMT -5
I honestly think that promo by Cena was one of the most interesting ways I've seen a wrestler gain number one contendership. Usually we see "c'mon tough guy, you're scared aren't you?" or just flat out violence to bring it to a personal level. How Cena just eloquently laid out his stance on what CM Punk is going through, put on a pretty fierce argument to a point where Punk really has no choice, choosing anyone else would be a copout. I also didn't like the "you blew a kiss to Vince McMahon and no one remembers what happened since then" comment because it just perpetuates the notion in WWE that wins/losses don't matter. Cena writes CM Punk's title reign as forgettable because he's simply winning matches, he's not embarking on home invasions or spraying his rivals with his favorite beverage, creating "moments". He's just winning matches. That attitude in the WWE drives me nuts, things like Booker telling Hawkins and Reks that they aren't doing enough to stand out, so they go out and perform stripteases that will get more results than winning matches ever would. I really despise how in kayfabe, the things superstars have to do in order to make any career advancement. That aside, it was still a phenomenal promo, and one of the best shut down a whiny heel promos I've ever heard. No schoolground insults, nothing blatantly disrespectful, it was awesome. I agree with most of this post. Cena did great and it was satisfying to hear him say what he did. Then again, I'm not really into CM Punk or his reign, so I'm biased.
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Cronant
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by Cronant on Aug 20, 2012 23:56:21 GMT -5
"Look, this shit is in Boston. If you want to go last so bad, you know who to pick"
BOSS LEVEL!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2012 23:59:40 GMT -5
For those that just must go the "yall mad" route, a big reason that we mad is because, and I'm not speaking for everyone but I'm sure a lot of people agree, CM Punk was the only babyface main eventer that I actually liked. It was a breath of fresh air, and now it's being choked in the dust of a s*** heel turn with a premise shakier than The Great Khali's gait. And when threads like this are like "seeeee? CM Punk got owned, admit it", it's pretty annoying, because the only things he's getting owned on are booking and writing issues that are completely out of his hands.
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Post by Some Guy on Aug 21, 2012 0:00:08 GMT -5
"Look, this s*** is in Boston. If you want to go last so bad, you know who to pick" BOSS LEVEL! "If you want to face me in my hometown, where I have gotten booed out of the building for six years and especially every time I'm in a title match..."
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Post by deafangelboy23 on Aug 21, 2012 0:00:29 GMT -5
Good comparison actually. And though as a little Hulkamaniac, I was cheering Hogan; I can look back and see.. Randy was right. Punk is too. Savage was nothing more than a paranoid lunatic. As is Punk. I disagree since Macho Man did more good for WWF. He was insane but yet riveting which is perfect antidote to the Hulkamania fever in 1980s. Macho Man shone in WrestleMania III match against Ricky Steamboat for Intercontinental championship and many people thought it stole the show from Hulk Hogan vs Andre the Giant for WWF championship. He was a great face and great heel. He opened the door for smaller wrestlers to elevate to the top which is why he was important factor in the evolution of WWF. Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels benefited from this. He did many fantastic promos and interviews such as the hilarious one with Sensational Sherri and Zeus because Sherri decided to climb the cage during the promo. How many achievements should validate the late Macho Man Randy Savage before he is considered a Mega Power? The list should have validated him but apparently he can't catch the break under the shadow of Hulk Hogan and the Hulkamania. "Hulkamania is like a single grain of sand in the Sahara desert that is Macho Madness." I can write more about CM Punk but since he was considered insane to some people just like Macho Man but madness is the true power and both men got it. I saw CM Punk wrestles against Daniel Bryan live at Over the Limits in Raleigh, NC and it was my main event...not John Cena vs Johnny Laurinaitis. Over the Limits 2012 main event was the worst main event I ever witnessed in my life. The main event was worse than Fall Brawl 1998 main event in which Bret Hart participated for Team Hollywood led by Hulk Hogan. Cena have no credibility in my opinion and I didn't buy his merchandises. He can't win me on anything he tried such as gangster gimmick, military gimmick, rapper gimmick, aw shucks gimmick and "Be a Star" gimmick etc. "Bow down to the kingdom of the madness!" #Respect
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Post by Friday Night SmackOwn on Aug 21, 2012 0:02:00 GMT -5
For those that just must go the "yall mad" route, a big reason that we mad is because, and I'm not speaking for everyone but I'm sure a lot of people agree, CM Punk was the only babyface main eventer that I actually liked. It was a breath of fresh air, and now it's being choked in the dust of a s*** heel turn with a premise shakier than The Great Khali's gait. And when threads like this are like "seeeee? CM Punk got owned, admit it", it's pretty annoying, because the only things he's getting owned on are booking and writing issues that are completely out of his hands. Exactly. It's like if Bret Hart randomly turned heel in '93 after Hulk Hogan won the title at WrestleMania IX.
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Post by thelonewolf527 on Aug 21, 2012 0:05:11 GMT -5
Fine. After Cena wins the title: - Cena vs. JBL main events Judgment Day. - HHH vs. Batista main events Vengeance. - Hogan vs. HBK main events SummerSlam. - Cena vs. Angle main events Unforgiven. - Cena vs. Angle vs. HBK main events Taboo Tuesday. As I remember it, there was more focus on Angle/HBK than Cena. - Survivor Series elimination/Undertaker's return main events SS. So in the entire year of 2005, Cena main evented three pay-per-views, one on SD! and two on Raw. In comparison, Punk main evented FIVE pay-per-views in 2011, one of them without even being champion. Even on the night of his title win, Batista is the bigger deal. Much like Punk today, Cena only main evented when there was no one more important than he was. I'll concede that I got that wrong about 2006, but even then that's after a year of being in the second place to Shawn, HHH, Batista, and Hogan. Much like Punk today, Cena still had to make room for the more important people. He earned the position of being the top guy only after a prolonged time sharing his spot with the others. But was Cena going on second in title reigns before non-title non-events like Kane/Cena, Big Show/Cena or Ace/Cena (love you Johnny Ace, People Power forever)? At Money in the Bank, John Cena being a participant in a match to win a title shot takes precedence over CM Punk's actual title match. 2005 is a very different time than 2012. In an attempt to adjust for contemporary wrestling practices, let's just compare 2009, 2010, 2011 to 2012 PPVs in terms of whether or not a world title main evented: 2009: N, N, Y, Y, Y, Y, Y, Y, Y, Y, N, Y, Y, N 2010: N, Y, N, Y, Y, Y, Y, N, Y, Y, Y, Y, N 2011: N, N, Y, Y, Y, Y, Y, Y, N, Y, Y, N, Y 2012: N, N, N, N, N, N, N, N One of these rows is not like the others. One of these rows just doesn't belong. Kane vs. Cena only main evented because it was the pay-per-view before WrestleMania and they wanted Cena standing tall to be the last shot of that show. Hell, intrigue and final images are the main reason why those matches went on last. Like it or not, Cena vs. Laurinaitis is what the main draw for Over The Limit was. A WWE.com poll showed so, Dave Meltzer said this was the draw, and the abysmal rating the Punk vs. Bryan/Tensai match 2 weeks before the show probably shows so too. WWE wanted the final images of OTL and NWO to be Big Show screwing Cena to keep Laurinaitis in charge and Laurinaitis being fired.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Aug 21, 2012 0:11:11 GMT -5
For those that just must go the "yall mad" route, a big reason that we mad is because, and I'm not speaking for everyone but I'm sure a lot of people agree, CM Punk was the only babyface main eventer that I actually liked. It was a breath of fresh air, and now it's being choked in the dust of a s*** heel turn with a premise shakier than The Great Khali's gait. And when threads like this are like "seeeee? CM Punk got owned, admit it", it's pretty annoying, because the only things he's getting owned on are booking and writing issues that are completely out of his hands. Well, I only made this thread out of me being a silly Cena fanboy. It wasn't meant for Punk fans to take seriously, I was just having fun. If it makes you feel better, I'm sorry your boy lost his mind.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2012 0:11:50 GMT -5
I'm a guy who likes both guys, actually, so, um......something? I like both too, I like Punk more but Cena's good, and his promo tonight was good. I'm not blaming him for this at all, I'm strictly annoyed about Punk turning heel, there's simply not a good reason for it. They are short on heels, but there's lots of heels they could push more strongly, or turn someone like Sheamus. Punk and Sheamus turned face around the same time, and guess who got over morer? The guy that just turned heel, of course. Doesn't make sense to me.
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Post by "Trickster Dogg" James Jesse on Aug 21, 2012 0:11:58 GMT -5
Kane vs. Cena only main evented because it was the pay-per-view before WrestleMania and they wanted Cena standing tall to be the last shot of that show. Hell, intrigue and final images are the main reason why those matches went on last. Like it or not, Cena vs. Laurinaitis is what the main draw for Over The Limit was. A WWE.com poll showed so, Dave Meltzer said this was the draw, and the abysmal rating the Punk vs. Bryan/Tensai match 2 weeks before the show probably shows so too. WWE wanted the final images of OTL and NWO to be Big Show screwing Cena to keep Laurinaitis in charge and Laurinaitis being fired. And given how Laurinaitis has been all but been retconned off of TV since then, this was the best booking decision in hindsight.
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kidglov3s
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants her Shot
Who is Tiger Maskooo?
Posts: 15,870
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Post by kidglov3s on Aug 21, 2012 0:12:38 GMT -5
But was Cena going on second in title reigns before non-title non-events like Kane/Cena, Big Show/Cena or Ace/Cena (love you Johnny Ace, People Power forever)? At Money in the Bank, John Cena being a participant in a match to win a title shot takes precedence over CM Punk's actual title match. 2005 is a very different time than 2012. In an attempt to adjust for contemporary wrestling practices, let's just compare 2009, 2010, 2011 to 2012 PPVs in terms of whether or not a world title main evented: 2009: N, N, Y, Y, Y, Y, Y, Y, Y, Y, N, Y, Y, N 2010: N, Y, N, Y, Y, Y, Y, N, Y, Y, Y, Y, N 2011: N, N, Y, Y, Y, Y, Y, Y, N, Y, Y, N, Y 2012: N, N, N, N, N, N, N, N One of these rows is not like the others. One of these rows just doesn't belong. Kane vs. Cena only main evented because it was the pay-per-view before WrestleMania and they wanted Cena standing tall to be the last shot of that show. Hell, intrigue and final images are the main reason why those matches went on last. Like it or not, Cena vs. Laurinaitis is what the main draw for Over The Limit was. A WWE.com poll showed so, Dave Meltzer said this was the draw, and the abysmal rating the Punk vs. Bryan/Tensai match 2 weeks before the show probably shows so too. WWE wanted the final images of OTL and NWO to be Big Show screwing Cena to keep Laurinaitis in charge and Laurinaitis being fired. That's evading the point, which is that there has been a dramatic shift in WWE. They've established a tier above the world titles, that is deleterious to the people who hold those titles making them essentially worthless.
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Post by Some Guy on Aug 21, 2012 0:13:50 GMT -5
But was Cena going on second in title reigns before non-title non-events like Kane/Cena, Big Show/Cena or Ace/Cena (love you Johnny Ace, People Power forever)? At Money in the Bank, John Cena being a participant in a match to win a title shot takes precedence over CM Punk's actual title match. 2005 is a very different time than 2012. In an attempt to adjust for contemporary wrestling practices, let's just compare 2009, 2010, 2011 to 2012 PPVs in terms of whether or not a world title main evented: 2009: N, N, Y, Y, Y, Y, Y, Y, Y, Y, N, Y, Y, N 2010: N, Y, N, Y, Y, Y, Y, N, Y, Y, Y, Y, N 2011: N, N, Y, Y, Y, Y, Y, Y, N, Y, Y, N, Y 2012: N, N, N, N, N, N, N, N One of these rows is not like the others. One of these rows just doesn't belong. Kane vs. Cena only main evented because it was the pay-per-view before WrestleMania and they wanted Cena standing tall to be the last shot of that show. Hell, intrigue and final images are the main reason why those matches went on last. Like it or not, Cena vs. Laurinaitis is what the main draw for Over The Limit was. A WWE.com poll showed so, Dave Meltzer said this was the draw, and the abysmal rating the Punk vs. Bryan/Tensai match 2 weeks before the show probably shows so too. WWE wanted the final images of OTL and NWO to be Big Show screwing Cena to keep Laurinaitis in charge and Laurinaitis being fired. Crowd reaction at the PPVs favored the WWE title match, by like a lot. They were DEAD for Cena/Big Show, and they were alive for Cena/Ace but only because it was a ridiculous comedy match and Ace was an annoying ass heel. It still didn't get even close to the reaction that Bryan/Punk was getting, nor was it near as good of a match. The booking for those PPVs was just a case of keeping Cena at the forefront, regardless of one whole segment performing poorly in the ratings.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2012 0:14:21 GMT -5
For those that just must go the "yall mad" route, a big reason that we mad is because, and I'm not speaking for everyone but I'm sure a lot of people agree, CM Punk was the only babyface main eventer that I actually liked. It was a breath of fresh air, and now it's being choked in the dust of a s*** heel turn with a premise shakier than The Great Khali's gait. And when threads like this are like "seeeee? CM Punk got owned, admit it", it's pretty annoying, because the only things he's getting owned on are booking and writing issues that are completely out of his hands. Well, I only made this thread out of me being a silly Cena fanboy. It wasn't meant for Punk fans to take seriously, I was just having fun. If it makes you feel better, I'm sorry your boy lost his mind. The lines between kayfabe and reality blend a lot here, so I apologize if I misinterpreted what you meant. But that wasn't just directed at you, it seems like a lot of people are taking it more of a reality direction of Cena legit putting Punk in his place in the segment. Maybe I'm misinterpreting that too. I'm an annoyed wrestling fan, we tend to misinterpret things. I think I'm going to steal Punk's gimmick and overuse the word misinterpret from now on.
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Post by thelonewolf527 on Aug 21, 2012 0:15:20 GMT -5
Kane vs. Cena only main evented because it was the pay-per-view before WrestleMania and they wanted Cena standing tall to be the last shot of that show. Hell, intrigue and final images are the main reason why those matches went on last. Like it or not, Cena vs. Laurinaitis is what the main draw for Over The Limit was. A WWE.com poll showed so, Dave Meltzer said this was the draw, and the abysmal rating the Punk vs. Bryan/Tensai match 2 weeks before the show probably shows so too. WWE wanted the final images of OTL and NWO to be Big Show screwing Cena to keep Laurinaitis in charge and Laurinaitis being fired. That's evading the point, which is that there has been a dramatic shift in WWE. They've established a tier above the world titles, that is deleterious to the people who hold those titles making them essentially worthless. That's not evading the point. WWE hasn't established anything, it's the fans. I'm sick of people trying to blame WWE for "not creating stars" and "not using guys properly" when a lot of the time it's because people are changing the channel when specific guys go on tv. WWE isn't making it so the WWE Title isn't as important as Cena, it's the fact that when Punk has been champion, he hasn't done all that great with ratings, when guys like Cena, Triple H, Lesnar, and The Rock have. Triple H usually garners around a 3.6-3.7 rating every time he was in the 10:00 spot. CM Punk never even came close to that in the 10:00 spot.
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Post by thelonewolf527 on Aug 21, 2012 0:17:09 GMT -5
Kane vs. Cena only main evented because it was the pay-per-view before WrestleMania and they wanted Cena standing tall to be the last shot of that show. Hell, intrigue and final images are the main reason why those matches went on last. Like it or not, Cena vs. Laurinaitis is what the main draw for Over The Limit was. A WWE.com poll showed so, Dave Meltzer said this was the draw, and the abysmal rating the Punk vs. Bryan/Tensai match 2 weeks before the show probably shows so too. WWE wanted the final images of OTL and NWO to be Big Show screwing Cena to keep Laurinaitis in charge and Laurinaitis being fired. Crowd reaction at the PPVs favored the WWE title match, by like a lot. They were DEAD for Cena/Big Show, and they were alive for Cena/Ace but only because it was a ridiculous comedy match and Ace was an annoying ass heel. It still didn't get even close to the reaction that Bryan/Punk was getting, nor was it near as good of a match. The booking for those PPVs was just a case of keeping Cena at the forefront, regardless of one whole segment performing poorly in the ratings. One crowd doesn't determine a damn thing. Hell, crowd reaction is almost meaningless at times. Zack Ryder got some pretty big pops but when your segments draw in the mid 2's, you shouldn't be on tv. I don't care how great the match was or the crowd reaction because that's all in hindsight and hindsight is completely useless and proves nothing. The No Way Out crowd was dead for the whole show and I consider it to be the worst pro wrestling crowd I've ever seen so they don't matter to me either.
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