kidkamikaze10
Dennis Stamp
Trying to think of a new avatar
Posts: 4,329
|
Post by kidkamikaze10 on Aug 21, 2012 0:18:02 GMT -5
That's evading the point, which is that there has been a dramatic shift in WWE. They've established a tier above the world titles, that is deleterious to the people who hold those titles making them essentially worthless. That's not evading the point. WWE hasn't established anything, it's the fans. I'm sick of people trying to blame WWE for "not creating stars" and "not using guys properly" when a lot of the time it's because people are changing the channel when specific guys go on tv. WWE isn't making it so the WWE Title isn't as important as Cena, it's the fact that when Punk has been champion, he hasn't done all that great with ratings, when guys like Cena, Triple H, Lesnar, and The Rock have. Triple H usually garners around a 3.6-3.7 rating every time he was in the 10:00 spot. CM Punk never even came close to that in the 10:00 spot. Ok, I understand why are you sick of hearing people blame the E for not creating new stars and not using guys properly. A lot of people say it. But are you trying to deny that it isn't true? Because you'll have to justify a lot of bad booking decisions if you are. Starting with both Zach Ryder and Dolph Ziggler. And if we are just going by ratings, well those two have been jobbed out big time. It's kind of hard to get much of an audience when everyone knows you are a loser.
|
|
|
Post by thelonewolf527 on Aug 21, 2012 0:19:56 GMT -5
That's not evading the point. WWE hasn't established anything, it's the fans. I'm sick of people trying to blame WWE for "not creating stars" and "not using guys properly" when a lot of the time it's because people are changing the channel when specific guys go on tv. WWE isn't making it so the WWE Title isn't as important as Cena, it's the fact that when Punk has been champion, he hasn't done all that great with ratings, when guys like Cena, Triple H, Lesnar, and The Rock have. Triple H usually garners around a 3.6-3.7 rating every time he was in the 10:00 spot. CM Punk never even came close to that in the 10:00 spot. Ok, I understand why are you sick of hearing people blame the E for not creating new stars and not using guys properly. A lot of people say it. But are you trying to deny that it isn't true? Because you'll have to justify a lot of bad booking decisions if you are. Starting with both Zach Ryder and Dolph Ziggler. Zack Ryder was ratings poison and Dolph Ziggler was never intended to be the guy. Ziggler's over with the internet but not even close to that with the casuals. Can he get there one day? Maybe. But is he there right now? No. Should they have him win more often? Perhaps but when you're intended to be a midcarder and then end up becoming an upper carder by chance, it's hard to just flat out change things on the fly like that.
|
|
kidglov3s
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants her Shot
Who is Tiger Maskooo?
Posts: 15,870
|
Post by kidglov3s on Aug 21, 2012 0:20:10 GMT -5
That's evading the point, which is that there has been a dramatic shift in WWE. They've established a tier above the world titles, that is deleterious to the people who hold those titles making them essentially worthless. That's not evading the point. WWE hasn't established anything, it's the fans. I'm sick of people trying to blame WWE for "not creating stars" and "not using guys properly" when a lot of the time it's because people are changing the channel when specific guys go on tv. WWE isn't making it so the WWE Title isn't as important as Cena, it's the fact that when Punk has been champion, he hasn't done all that great with ratings, when guys like Cena, Triple H, Lesnar, and The Rock have. Triple H usually garners around a 3.6-3.7 rating every time he was in the 10:00 spot. CM Punk never even came close to that in the 10:00 spot. I never realized we the fans stood in unison and spoke with one voice: "Hey! WWE! World titles main eventing 70% of PPVs is bullshit. Let's make it zero. Thanks."
|
|
|
Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Aug 21, 2012 0:21:06 GMT -5
Crowd reaction at the PPVs favored the WWE title match, by like a lot. They were DEAD for Cena/Big Show, and they were alive for Cena/Ace but only because it was a ridiculous comedy match and Ace was an annoying ass heel. It still didn't get even close to the reaction that Bryan/Punk was getting, nor was it near as good of a match. The booking for those PPVs was just a case of keeping Cena at the forefront, regardless of one whole segment performing poorly in the ratings. One crowd doesn't determine a damn thing. Hell, crowd reaction is almost meaningless at times. Zack Ryder got some pretty big pops but when your segments draw in the mid 2's, you shouldn't be on tv. I don't care how great the match was or the crowd reaction because that's all in hindsight and hindsight is completely useless and proves nothing. The No Way Out crowd was dead for the whole show and I consider it to be the worst pro wrestling crowd I've ever seen so they don't matter to me either. I don't think there has ever been such a MASSIVE disconnect between live fans, TV fans and internet fans as there seems to be right now. There is not one guy out there that all three like unanimously.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2012 0:21:39 GMT -5
For those that just must go the "yall mad" route, a big reason that we mad is because, and I'm not speaking for everyone but I'm sure a lot of people agree, CM Punk was the only babyface main eventer that I actually liked. It was a breath of fresh air, and now it's being choked in the dust of a s*** heel turn with a premise shakier than The Great Khali's gait. And when threads like this are like "seeeee? CM Punk got owned, admit it", it's pretty annoying, because the only things he's getting owned on are booking and writing issues that are completely out of his hands. I don't know, is it really a shaky premise? CM Punk's entire reign is the result of a quest to be treated like the Best in the World as he claims to be, he's held the title in one of the longest reigns in recent history, but the fruits of his labor have yet to really be revealed. I don't find this behavior isn't really unbecoming of CM Punk's character. This feud so far hasn't shown signs of really crippling CM Punk's stature in the company. People are making comparisons to Macho Man and I think that's fitting, there's nothing wrong with being compared to Macho Man. He wasn't THE GUY when put up to Cena but he still was a legend of his generation and had tons of success. There's a thrill in rooting for Punk at the level he's at because no matter what I think he's always gonna be at the main event level. You put him at Cena's level and it just gives WWE free reign to be complacent as they tend to get with Cena, where his feuds are basically written with mad libs and we see the writing on the wall from square one. As much as I hate a lot of where WWE's going, I've been genuinely interested in CM Punk's storylines and matches since he won the Championship and so far this Cena feud is no exception. Punk's not considered Cena's equal by WWE's standard, but he's at a point where WWE seems willing to give him juicy storylines to play with and plenty of time in the ring to put on some great matches so his rank in the company is high enough that as a CM Punk fan I can be satisfied. There are handfuls of other wrestlers who as a fan of them I just feel flat out robbed, CM Punk is not among them.
|
|
|
Post by thelonewolf527 on Aug 21, 2012 0:22:40 GMT -5
That's not evading the point. WWE hasn't established anything, it's the fans. I'm sick of people trying to blame WWE for "not creating stars" and "not using guys properly" when a lot of the time it's because people are changing the channel when specific guys go on tv. WWE isn't making it so the WWE Title isn't as important as Cena, it's the fact that when Punk has been champion, he hasn't done all that great with ratings, when guys like Cena, Triple H, Lesnar, and The Rock have. Triple H usually garners around a 3.6-3.7 rating every time he was in the 10:00 spot. CM Punk never even came close to that in the 10:00 spot. I never realized we the fans stood in unison and spoke with one voice: "Hey! WWE! World titles main eventing 70% of PPVs is bulls***. Let's make it zero. Thanks." When did I ever say that? I said that every single time that Punk hasn't main evented, there's been a legitimate reason to at least partially put other matches last.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2012 0:23:11 GMT -5
That's evading the point, which is that there has been a dramatic shift in WWE. They've established a tier above the world titles, that is deleterious to the people who hold those titles making them essentially worthless. That's not evading the point. WWE hasn't established anything, it's the fans. I'm sick of people trying to blame WWE for "not creating stars" and "not using guys properly" when a lot of the time it's because people are changing the channel when specific guys go on tv. WWE isn't making it so the WWE Title isn't as important as Cena, it's the fact that when Punk has been champion, he hasn't done all that great with ratings, when guys like Cena, Triple H, Lesnar, and The Rock have. Triple H usually garners around a 3.6-3.7 rating every time he was in the 10:00 spot. CM Punk never even came close to that in the 10:00 spot. The ratings don't just shoot up over night. Austin turned babyface at Mania 13, ratings didn't shoot up overnight. They stayed low until the next year, when he won the Rumble, and MAIN EVENTED Wrestlemania for the WWF title, was put over by the top star and got the rub from a huge celebrity, instead of being in an afterthought match compared to the "real" draws like Rock/Cena/Taker/Trips/HBK. They put the belt on him too quickly I think, and had no challengers for him once he got it. Austin had Foley, Kane, Taker, along with Vince f***ing with him constantly, and interesting, compelling scenarios on every Raw. Punk's in this formulaic "PG" coasting era, it's a totally different ball game. It's a symptom of having no competition, no kick in the ass, no rivals stealing your stars so you're forced to make new ones.
|
|
|
Post by Some Guy on Aug 21, 2012 0:23:19 GMT -5
One crowd doesn't determine a damn thing. Hell, crowd reaction is almost meaningless at times. Zack Ryder got some pretty big pops but when your segments draw in the mid 2's, you shouldn't be on tv. I don't care how great the match was or the crowd reaction because that's all in hindsight and hindsight is completely useless and proves nothing. The No Way Out crowd was dead for the whole show and I consider it to be the worst pro wrestling crowd I've ever seen so they don't matter to me either. I don't think there has ever been such a MASSIVE disconnect between live fans, TV fans and internet fans as there seems to be right now. There is not one guy out there that all three like unanimously. Stone Cold is the closest you'll get.
|
|
|
Post by thelonewolf527 on Aug 21, 2012 0:24:02 GMT -5
One crowd doesn't determine a damn thing. Hell, crowd reaction is almost meaningless at times. Zack Ryder got some pretty big pops but when your segments draw in the mid 2's, you shouldn't be on tv. I don't care how great the match was or the crowd reaction because that's all in hindsight and hindsight is completely useless and proves nothing. The No Way Out crowd was dead for the whole show and I consider it to be the worst pro wrestling crowd I've ever seen so they don't matter to me either. I don't think there has ever been such a MASSIVE disconnect between live fans, TV fans and internet fans as there seems to be right now. There is not one guy out there that all three like unanimously. In this economy, it seems to me that the families and casuals that love guys like Cena more are opting to go to house shows in order to save money. Hence why guys like Cena and Sheamus get better reactions at house shows than on tv.
|
|
The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
Posts: 37,644
|
Post by The Ichi on Aug 21, 2012 0:24:11 GMT -5
For once, can we just shut the hell up about ratings and buyrates in a discussion? It's seriously cancerous to this board.
What happened to discussions rooted in kayfabe? That was probably the original intention of this thread and I was enjoying reading through it until the "ACTUALLY, FIGURES AND BUYRATES DURKA DURKA DURKA" crap reared its ugly head. NOBODY CARES.
|
|
kidglov3s
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants her Shot
Who is Tiger Maskooo?
Posts: 15,870
|
Post by kidglov3s on Aug 21, 2012 0:24:28 GMT -5
I never realized we the fans stood in unison and spoke with one voice: "Hey! WWE! World titles main eventing 70% of PPVs is bulls***. Let's make it zero. Thanks." When did I ever say that? I said that every single time that Punk hasn't main evented, there's been a legitimate reason to at least partially put other matches last. The point I'm making is that from 2009-2011, world title matches were PPV main events 70% of the time, and this year it's zero. I'm saying this is significant.
|
|
|
Post by Friday Night SmackOwn on Aug 21, 2012 0:25:04 GMT -5
How do ratings & buyrates even figure into a feud about a guy demanding respect and not wanting to be second fiddle to the "face" of the WWE?
|
|
|
Post by Zabel Zarock on Aug 21, 2012 0:25:43 GMT -5
The fact that the CHAMP hasn't been the main draw of the shows is ridiculous and no matter how whiny Punk has been he's right. He's the CHAMP the CHAMP should be the focus of the show, hes got the prestige, he's got the title, he's the guy everyone should be going for and focusing the company an dshow around.
|
|
|
Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Aug 21, 2012 0:26:00 GMT -5
I don't think there has ever been such a MASSIVE disconnect between live fans, TV fans and internet fans as there seems to be right now. There is not one guy out there that all three like unanimously. In this economy, it seems to me that the families and casuals that love guys like Cena more are opting to go to house shows in order to save money. Hence why guys like Cena and Sheamus get better reactions at house shows than on tv. Better value for money too, if you're in it for the matches.
|
|
|
Post by thelonewolf527 on Aug 21, 2012 0:26:10 GMT -5
How do ratings & buyrates even figure into a feud about a guy demanding respect and not wanting to be second fiddle to the "face" of the WWE? Punk's ratings power was nowhere near comparable to Cena's, so Cena goes on last in order to get the highest rating possible, therefore pushing Punk back to a less important part of Raw.
|
|
kidkamikaze10
Dennis Stamp
Trying to think of a new avatar
Posts: 4,329
|
Post by kidkamikaze10 on Aug 21, 2012 0:28:19 GMT -5
Ok, I understand why are you sick of hearing people blame the E for not creating new stars and not using guys properly. A lot of people say it. But are you trying to deny that it isn't true? Because you'll have to justify a lot of bad booking decisions if you are. Starting with both Zach Ryder and Dolph Ziggler. Zack Ryder was ratings poison and Dolph Ziggler was never intended to be the guy. Ziggler's over with the internet but not even close to that with the casuals. Can he get there one day? Maybe. But is he there right now? No. Should they have him win more often? Perhaps but when you're intended to be a midcarder and then end up becoming an upper carder by chance, it's hard to just flat out change things on the fly like that. I'd like to believe that, I really would. But just this year, I saw a practical rookie, a TNA jobber, go to Japan, beat Japan's John Cena for the biggest title, have a title reign filled with great matches, and then win the biggest tourney in Japan. When the E tried this Del Rio, it took some junk booking decisions to turn the guy into a complete heat-killer, no matter his skills. When New Japan did this with Okada, he's become one of the newest stars in Puro. So I have a hard time believing that WWE's booking failures aren't a factor. That it's just the fans.
|
|
|
Post by Some Guy on Aug 21, 2012 0:28:48 GMT -5
How do ratings & buyrates even figure into a feud about a guy demanding respect and not wanting to be second fiddle to the "face" of the WWE? Punk's ratings power was nowhere near comparable to Cena's, so Cena goes on last in order to get the highest rating possible, therefore pushing Punk back to a less important part of Raw. And the counterargument is that he hasn't been given the chance to have the ratings power. Like someone said up there, Stone Cold didn't just magically one day supersize the ratings to absurd levels. It was a gradual process, it takes time. I mean, the moment the Triple H feud ended, Punk hasn't been the focus of Raw until now. That was a year ago for god sakes.
|
|
|
Post by "Trickster Dogg" James Jesse on Aug 21, 2012 0:29:15 GMT -5
For once, can we just shut the hell up about ratings and buyrates in a discussion? It's seriously cancerous to this board. What happened to discussions rooted in kayfabe? That was probably the original intention of this thread and I was enjoying reading through it until the "ACTUALLY, FIGURES AND BUYRATES DURKA DURKA DURKA" crap reared its ugly head. NOBODY CARES. Low ratings and low buyrates during one guy's segment means that he's likely not going to be featured as much (or at the very least, not in those spots). And if he's holding a title, he's probably not going to be holding that title that much longer. So some people like seeing guys they like featured on the show a lot, featured on the show in a positive way (i.e. winning), and featured in a way that makes them seem important (i.e. champion). So yeah, it kind of does matter. And when the booking of the angle traverses worked shoot territory, it's hard not to bring in events in reality into the kayfabe discussion.
|
|
|
Post by Some Guy on Aug 21, 2012 0:29:55 GMT -5
Ok, I understand why are you sick of hearing people blame the E for not creating new stars and not using guys properly. A lot of people say it. But are you trying to deny that it isn't true? Because you'll have to justify a lot of bad booking decisions if you are. Starting with both Zach Ryder and Dolph Ziggler. Zack Ryder was ratings poison and Dolph Ziggler was never intended to be the guy. Ziggler's over with the internet but not even close to that with the casuals. Can he get there one day? Maybe. But is he there right now? No. Should they have him win more often? Perhaps but when you're intended to be a midcarder and then end up becoming an upper carder by chance, it's hard to just flat out change things on the fly like that. Ziggler is a big win (and not a random Raw win against Jericho) away from being insanely over with the casuals, and he's shown it on TV and PPVs increasingly over the last few months.
|
|
kidkamikaze10
Dennis Stamp
Trying to think of a new avatar
Posts: 4,329
|
Post by kidkamikaze10 on Aug 21, 2012 0:30:03 GMT -5
How do ratings & buyrates even figure into a feud about a guy demanding respect and not wanting to be second fiddle to the "face" of the WWE? Cena has made it a factor in this feud. I mean, that is why he gets higher priority, and he indirectly stated it.
|
|