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Post by thelonewolf527 on Aug 21, 2012 0:31:32 GMT -5
Punk's ratings power was nowhere near comparable to Cena's, so Cena goes on last in order to get the highest rating possible, therefore pushing Punk back to a less important part of Raw. And the counterargument is that he hasn't been given the chance to have the ratings power. Like someone said up there, Stone Cold didn't just magically one day supersize the ratings to absurd levels. It was a gradual process, it takes time. I mean, the moment the Triple H feud ended, Punk hasn't been the focus of Raw until now. That was a year ago for god sakes. Stone Cold wasn't the champion in 1997. The champions were Undertaker and Bret Hart who hadn't done much in prior years for ratings either. That was also a time when the brand itself was the draw and not just individual people, so they could do whatever they wanted really. That's not the case today. People draw big, not the brand. Punk was champion for months and did nothing in what's supposed to be the 2nd highest rating segment of the show. I like Punk, but I understand why he doesn't get as much "focus."
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2012 0:33:01 GMT -5
For once, can we just shut the hell up about ratings and buyrates in a discussion? It's seriously cancerous to this board. What happened to discussions rooted in kayfabe? That was probably the original intention of this thread and I was enjoying reading through it until the "ACTUALLY, FIGURES AND BUYRATES DURKA DURKA DURKA" crap reared its ugly head. NOBODY CARES. This discussion is bigger than the angle at this point, its going into WWE's philosophies about pushes, how Punk doesn't draw big TV ratings so he's not in the main event slot that he desires, and the argument that he's not been given a chance to garner said ratings because of the part-timers+Cena. It all ties in, it's hard to avoid stuff like this. And please, leave the fine people of DurkaDurkastan out of this.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2012 0:33:32 GMT -5
I thought the promo was only so-so. I think we're used to expecting the bottom of the barrel from Cena, that when he actually bring something half-decent to the table, it seems more impressive.
"Blah blah respect. Blah blah, cheap local pop. Blah blah, believe in yourself. Now either you're afraid to really prove yourself as the best or you'll pick me of the title shot at NoC."
It wasn't bad at all, but nothing special really.
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The Ichi
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Post by The Ichi on Aug 21, 2012 0:33:51 GMT -5
For once, can we just shut the hell up about ratings and buyrates in a discussion? It's seriously cancerous to this board. What happened to discussions rooted in kayfabe? That was probably the original intention of this thread and I was enjoying reading through it until the "ACTUALLY, FIGURES AND BUYRATES DURKA DURKA DURKA" crap reared its ugly head. NOBODY CARES. Low ratings and low buyrates during one guy's segment means that he's likely not going to be featured as much (or at the very least, not in those spots). And if he's holding a title, he's probably not going to be holding that title that much longer. So some people like seeing guys they like featured on the show a lot, featured on the show in a positive way (i.e. winning), and featured in a way that makes them seem important (i.e. champion). So yeah, it kind of does matter. And when the booking of the angle traverses worked shoot territory, it's hard not to bring in events in reality into the kayfabe discussion. I don't care. I know why it's important and how it factors into what happens on screen. I still don't f***ing care. I'm not in a position to be worrying about the techinical stuff. I'm a fan. I mean, I get keeping a brief eye on it sometimes if you want a certain someone to do well/badly, but the amount of times it's brought up in discussions, the amount that certain people seem able to know the figures off by heart is just...I can't even describe without a warning, most likely. It's not fun. This board is supposed to be fun. This THREAD was fun until that same black cloud loomed over it. Can we just try to be fans again? I'll take in-depth discussions about workrate over ratings talk.
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Some Guy
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Post by Some Guy on Aug 21, 2012 0:34:29 GMT -5
And the counterargument is that he hasn't been given the chance to have the ratings power. Like someone said up there, Stone Cold didn't just magically one day supersize the ratings to absurd levels. It was a gradual process, it takes time. I mean, the moment the Triple H feud ended, Punk hasn't been the focus of Raw until now. That was a year ago for god sakes. Stone Cold wasn't the champion in 1997. The champions were Undertaker and Bret Hart who hadn't done much in prior years for ratings either. Punk was champion for months and did nothing in what's supposed to be the 2nd highest rating segment of the show. I like Punk, but I understand why he doesn't get as much "focus." I meant in 1998, actually. He was the focus of the show in the build towards Mania, and the night after didn't exactly have a huge rating without Shawn or Tyson. But, as time went on and they stuck with Austin, the ratings got higher and higher. And it's the 10 PM slot, while there is usually an increase in the middle of the show, you can't exactly take a guy seriously that is constantly in that same spot and never the main event.
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kidglov3s
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Post by kidglov3s on Aug 21, 2012 0:34:32 GMT -5
This is bigger than Cena vs Punk. This implicates Sheamus too, and more importantly the WWE and WHC titles.
WWE has made it explicitly clear this year that there is a tier above the world titles, and that if you're not in that tier you don't matter. You're missing the forest for the trees.
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Post by thelonewolf527 on Aug 21, 2012 0:37:06 GMT -5
Stone Cold wasn't the champion in 1997. The champions were Undertaker and Bret Hart who hadn't done much in prior years for ratings either. Punk was champion for months and did nothing in what's supposed to be the 2nd highest rating segment of the show. I like Punk, but I understand why he doesn't get as much "focus." I meant in 1998, actually. He was the focus of the show in the build towards Mania, and the night after didn't exactly have a huge rating without Shawn or Tyson. But, as time went on and they stuck with Austin, the ratings got higher and higher. And it's the 10 PM slot, while there is usually an increase in the middle of the show, you can't exactly take a guy seriously that is constantly in that same spot and never the main event. Raw the night after WrestleMania did a 3.8 rating. One week later, the rating was a 4.7.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Aug 21, 2012 0:37:12 GMT -5
This is bigger than Cena vs Punk. This implicates Sheamus too, and more importantly the WWE and WHC titles. WWE has made it explicitly clear this year that there is a tier above the world titles, and that if you're not in that tier you don't matter. You're missing the forest for the trees. OK, if that's the case, how do we fix it? Let's talk solutions for a bit, instead of problems.
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kidglov3s
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Post by kidglov3s on Aug 21, 2012 0:40:58 GMT -5
This is bigger than Cena vs Punk. This implicates Sheamus too, and more importantly the WWE and WHC titles. WWE has made it explicitly clear this year that there is a tier above the world titles, and that if you're not in that tier you don't matter. You're missing the forest for the trees. OK, if that's the case, how do we fix it? Let's talk solutions for a bit, instead of problems. Why not have Johnny Ace's guys go after the belt? Why make it so explicit that for months John Cena just had bigger fish to fry than the WWE title? Why didn't The Rock immediately go for the WWE title after Wrestlemania? Why didn't Lesnar go after the WWE title immediately? Lesnar has never even mentioned the WWE title. Why? Why is CM Punk saying "I don't care about the WWE title"? Why was AJ Lee put above the WWE title? All of this has a net effect of devaluing the title. Bit by bit. Piece by piece. And here we are.
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Some Guy
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Post by Some Guy on Aug 21, 2012 0:43:13 GMT -5
OK, if that's the case, how do we fix it? Let's talk solutions for a bit, instead of problems. Why not have Johnny Ace's guys go after the belt? Why make it so explicit that for months John Cena just had bigger fish to fry than the WWE title? Why didn't The Rock immediately go for the WWE title after Wrestlemania? Why didn't Lesnar go after the WWE title immediately? Lesnar has never even mentioned the WWE title. Why? Why is CM Punk saying "I don't care about the WWE title"? Why was AJ Lee put above the WWE title? All of this has a net effect of devaluing the title. Bit by bit. Piece by piece. And here we are. What she said. I mean hell, Ace sided with Bryan against Punk in a random match against Teddy a few weeks before Mania. Why not have him hand select Bryan to fight Punk at Over the Limit, with Ace by Bryan's side?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2012 0:44:31 GMT -5
Low ratings and low buyrates during one guy's segment means that he's likely not going to be featured as much (or at the very least, not in those spots). And if he's holding a title, he's probably not going to be holding that title that much longer. So some people like seeing guys they like featured on the show a lot, featured on the show in a positive way (i.e. winning), and featured in a way that makes them seem important (i.e. champion). So yeah, it kind of does matter. And when the booking of the angle traverses worked shoot territory, it's hard not to bring in events in reality into the kayfabe discussion. I don't care. I know why it's important and how it factors into what happens on screen. I still don't f***ing care. I'm not in a position to be worrying about the techinical stuff. I'm a fan. I mean, I get keeping a brief eye on it sometimes if you want a certain someone to do well/badly, but the amount of times it's brought up in discussions, the amount that certain people seem able to know the figures off by heart is just...I can't even describe without a warning, most likely. It's not fun. This board is supposed to be fun. This THREAD was fun until that same black cloud loomed over it. Can we just try to be fans again? I'll take in-depth discussions about workrate over ratings talk. Okay. Let's talk about the kayfabe stuff. Punk has an awesome WWE title reign, defeating all comers, for NINE MONTHS! All of a sudden, he gets pissed, and says he wants RESPECT. Tonight, Cena said "you have to EARN respect! Your title reign hasn't been s***! Give me a title shot, I'll make ya famous kid!" Punk, emasculated, calls Jerry Lawler into the ring and kicks him in the head, after saying RESPECT 20 more times, looking and sounding like he's rather be doing anything else. zzzzzzzzzz... There's a reason it gets into all this meta stuff, it's because it's more interesting and layered than the shallow stories we see on screen.
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Post by "Trickster Dogg" James Jesse on Aug 21, 2012 0:44:42 GMT -5
I don't care. I know why it's important and how it factors into what happens on screen. I still don't f***ing care. I'm not in a position to be worrying about the techinical stuff. I'm a fan. I mean, I get keeping a brief eye on it sometimes if you want a certain someone to do well/badly, but the amount of times it's brought up in discussions, the amount that certain people seem able to know the figures off by heart is just...I can't even describe without a warning, most likely. It's not fun. This board is supposed to be fun. This THREAD was fun until that same black cloud loomed over it. Can we just try to be fans again? I'll take in-depth discussions about workrate over ratings talk. Well, I haven't been entertained by a WWE show since 4/2/12. That show was great top to bottom. Since then, there have been parts of the show I liked, parts of the show I hated, and parts of the show I didn't care about either which way. I've been less of a fan since there has been less on the show I've enjoyed. And while I'm sure people have varying degrees of liking/disliking the show, I know that since I haven't enjoyed the show, I'm less of a fan, and I find the show to be less fun because of those two things. From what I've seen in TNA recently, I like what they're doing a lot more than what WWE is doing, even when TNA still does a lot of stupid stuff (like the AJ/Daniels/Claire/Dixie angle) and even when I don't watch TNA that frequently (only twice a month). TNA, from what I've seen, is much more fun. WWE for me right now is stale, stagnant, repetitive, and bloated. In short, not fun. And this angle, even in kayfabe, does nothing to shake up or fix any of these things. And for a lot of other people also, WWE isn't fun, or not as fun as it could be.
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kidkamikaze10
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Post by kidkamikaze10 on Aug 21, 2012 0:44:58 GMT -5
This is bigger than Cena vs Punk. This implicates Sheamus too, and more importantly the WWE and WHC titles. WWE has made it explicitly clear this year that there is a tier above the world titles, and that if you're not in that tier you don't matter. You're missing the forest for the trees. OK, if that's the case, how do we fix it? Let's talk solutions for a bit, instead of problems. The solution is so easy, even TNA can do it. Act like a wrestling company. You know, an athletic competition where guys are trying to be the best in their sport, not the biggest star? Where there's an actual goal to be had that involves physical prowess? And where the proof of who's the best in their sport is the belt they are holding, not by how many fans they have?
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SEAN CARLESS
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Aug 21, 2012 0:45:19 GMT -5
How do ratings & buyrates even figure into a feud about a guy demanding respect and not wanting to be second fiddle to the "face" of the WWE? Punk's ratings power was nowhere near comparable to Cena's, so Cena goes on last in order to get the highest rating possible, therefore pushing Punk back to a less important part of Raw. If you put all your eggs in Cena's basket, what happens if Cena gets crippled out of the blue or dies? What contingency do you have? Sometimes you have to bite the bullet and make someone else the focal point, in spite of a top guy being more over, so that way, you have someone to potentially replace that top guy with. A guy like Punk is popular to crowds and sells merch. Two out of three of the holy trinity of Main Event drawing power. So you push him on top until people bite or accept it. HHH wasn't in any way a ratings draw (or any kind of draw really) until they started treating him like a huge deal. Cena didn't particularly draw ratings either at first. But they pushed and pushed and pushed, and people eventually bought it. You can't do that with everyone, they have to have an "it" factor or appeal to start, but in most cases, as with those I mentioned, that tenacity eventually paid off. Perception = reality. And to make new stars you have to swallow a little short term loss sometimes. The gravy train can't roll on forever.
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Post by Hit Girl on Aug 21, 2012 0:46:17 GMT -5
Cena babbled. If there were any truths in what he said, I must have missed them. I love the way Punk just ignored Cena and went straight back to Lawler.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2012 0:46:54 GMT -5
I don't care. I know why it's important and how it factors into what happens on screen. I still don't f***ing care. I'm not in a position to be worrying about the techinical stuff. I'm a fan. I mean, I get keeping a brief eye on it sometimes if you want a certain someone to do well/badly, but the amount of times it's brought up in discussions, the amount that certain people seem able to know the figures off by heart is just...I can't even describe without a warning, most likely. It's not fun. This board is supposed to be fun. This THREAD was fun until that same black cloud loomed over it. Can we just try to be fans again? I'll take in-depth discussions about workrate over ratings talk. Okay. Let's talk about the kayfabe stuff. Punk has an awesome WWE title reign, defeating all comers, for NINE MONTHS! All of a sudden, he gets pissed, and says he wants RESPECT. Tonight, Cena said "you have to EARN respect! Your title reign hasn't been s***! Give me a title shot, I'll make ya famous kid!" zzzzzzzzzz... That's kinda the thing that I don't get either. I'm the champ. I took on all comers, but I'm still second fiddle to the guy I beat for the title and twice at the last two Summer Slams. But some how beating you at NoC makes all the difference? I mean, its about as logical as most wrestling angles, but still.
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Post by WarChief on Aug 21, 2012 0:46:58 GMT -5
Low ratings and low buyrates during one guy's segment means that he's likely not going to be featured as much (or at the very least, not in those spots). And if he's holding a title, he's probably not going to be holding that title that much longer. So some people like seeing guys they like featured on the show a lot, featured on the show in a positive way (i.e. winning), and featured in a way that makes them seem important (i.e. champion). So yeah, it kind of does matter. And when the booking of the angle traverses worked shoot territory, it's hard not to bring in events in reality into the kayfabe discussion. I don't care. I know why it's important and how it factors into what happens on screen. I still don't f***ing care. I'm not in a position to be worrying about the techinical stuff. I'm a fan. I mean, I get keeping a brief eye on it sometimes if you want a certain someone to do well/badly, but the amount of times it's brought up in discussions, the amount that certain people seem able to know the figures off by heart is just...I can't even describe without a warning, most likely. It's not fun. This board is supposed to be fun. This THREAD was fun until that same black cloud loomed over it. Can we just try to be fans again? I'll take in-depth discussions about workrate over ratings talk. So what you're saying is because you're not having fun, everyone else should drop what they're discussing and talk about what you want? Okay, everyone stop it. We have to talk in kayfabe now.
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The Ichi
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Post by The Ichi on Aug 21, 2012 0:50:01 GMT -5
I don't care. I know why it's important and how it factors into what happens on screen. I still don't f***ing care. I'm not in a position to be worrying about the techinical stuff. I'm a fan. I mean, I get keeping a brief eye on it sometimes if you want a certain someone to do well/badly, but the amount of times it's brought up in discussions, the amount that certain people seem able to know the figures off by heart is just...I can't even describe without a warning, most likely. It's not fun. This board is supposed to be fun. This THREAD was fun until that same black cloud loomed over it. Can we just try to be fans again? I'll take in-depth discussions about workrate over ratings talk. Okay. Let's talk about the kayfabe stuff. Punk has an awesome WWE title reign, defeating all comers, for NINE MONTHS! All of a sudden, he gets pissed, and says he wants RESPECT. Tonight, Cena said "you have to EARN respect! Your title reign hasn't been s***! Give me a title shot, I'll make ya famous kid!" zzzzzzzzzz... It's only written like that because, by my count, Punks segment in the 2nd hour last week saw a 0.2 decrease to the week before that featured HHH. And Cena segments always average out a 3.2 rating. zzzzzzzzz...
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Post by Starshine on Aug 21, 2012 0:50:43 GMT -5
Okay. Let's talk about the kayfabe stuff. Punk has an awesome WWE title reign, defeating all comers, for NINE MONTHS! All of a sudden, he gets pissed, and says he wants RESPECT. Tonight, Cena said "you have to EARN respect! Your title reign hasn't been s***! Give me a title shot, I'll make ya famous kid!" zzzzzzzzzz... It's only written like that because, by my count, Punks segment in the 2nd hour last week saw a 0.2 decrease to the week before that featured HHH. And Cena segments always average out a 3.2 rating. zzzzzzzzz... Dude, there are other threads.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2012 0:51:32 GMT -5
Okay. Let's talk about the kayfabe stuff. Punk has an awesome WWE title reign, defeating all comers, for NINE MONTHS! All of a sudden, he gets pissed, and says he wants RESPECT. Tonight, Cena said "you have to EARN respect! Your title reign hasn't been s***! Give me a title shot, I'll make ya famous kid!" zzzzzzzzzz... It's only written like that because, by my count, Punks segment in the 2nd hour last week saw a 0.2 decrease to the week before that featured HHH. And Cena segments always average out a 3.2 rating. zzzzzzzzz... lol, I see your point
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