Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2012 0:52:11 GMT -5
I don't care. I know why it's important and how it factors into what happens on screen. I still don't f***ing care. I'm not in a position to be worrying about the techinical stuff. I'm a fan. I mean, I get keeping a brief eye on it sometimes if you want a certain someone to do well/badly, but the amount of times it's brought up in discussions, the amount that certain people seem able to know the figures off by heart is just...I can't even describe without a warning, most likely. It's not fun. This board is supposed to be fun. This THREAD was fun until that same black cloud loomed over it. Can we just try to be fans again? I'll take in-depth discussions about workrate over ratings talk. So what you're saying is because you're not having fun, everyone else should drop what they're discussing and talk about what you want? Okay, everyone stop it. We have to talk in kayfabe now. Can I join the dWo? In kayfabe, of course.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2012 0:52:16 GMT -5
Punk's ratings power was nowhere near comparable to Cena's, so Cena goes on last in order to get the highest rating possible, therefore pushing Punk back to a less important part of Raw. If you put all your eggs in Cena's basket, what happens if Cena gets crippled out of the blue or dies? What contingency do you have? Sometimes you have to bite the bullet and make someone else the focal point, in spite of a top guy being more over, so that way, you have someone to potentially replace that top guy with. Not that this is a defense of WWE, but I think if push came to shove they'd find that new star. Be it CM Punk or someone else, do whatever they can to find that comfort zone and learn nothing from the experience.
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Some Guy
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Post by Some Guy on Aug 21, 2012 0:52:31 GMT -5
OK, if that's the case, how do we fix it? Let's talk solutions for a bit, instead of problems. The solution is so easy, even TNA can do it. Act like a wrestling company. You know, an athletic competition where guys are trying to be the best in their sport, not the biggest star? Where there's an actual goal to be had that involves physical prowess? And where the proof of who's the best in their sport is the belt they are holding, not by how many fans they have? Exactly. I mean, Jeff Hardy remains the biggest merch seller in TNA and is the most over STILL, yet he isn't in the main event constantly every week because the championship is more important. Only now, with the mega destruction angle of Aces and 8s, is the title outside of the spotlight for the first time in about a year. Contrast that to the WWE, where it finally is back in the spotlight.
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saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
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Post by saintpat on Aug 21, 2012 0:52:33 GMT -5
Punk's ratings power was nowhere near comparable to Cena's, so Cena goes on last in order to get the highest rating possible, therefore pushing Punk back to a less important part of Raw. If you put all your eggs in Cena's basket, what happens if Cena gets crippled out of the blue or dies? What contingency do you have? Sometimes you have to bite the bullet and make someone else the focal point, in spite of a top guy being more over, so that way, you have someone to potentially replace that top guy with. A guy like Punk is popular to crowds and sells merch. Two out of three of the holy trinity of Main Event drawing power. So you push him on top until people bite or accept it. HHH wasn't in any way a ratings draw (or any kind of draw really) until they started treating him like a huge deal. Cena didn't particularly draw ratings either at first. But they pushed and pushed and pushed, and people eventually bought it. You can't do that with everyone, they have to have an "it" factor or appeal to start, but in most cases, as with those I mentioned, that tenacity eventually paid off. Perception = reality. And to make new stars you have to swallow a little short term loss sometimes. The gravy train can't roll on forever. And the IWC, predictably, says they're tired of having this guy pushed down their throats and turns on him.
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
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Post by The Ichi on Aug 21, 2012 0:56:25 GMT -5
I don't care. I know why it's important and how it factors into what happens on screen. I still don't f***ing care. I'm not in a position to be worrying about the techinical stuff. I'm a fan. I mean, I get keeping a brief eye on it sometimes if you want a certain someone to do well/badly, but the amount of times it's brought up in discussions, the amount that certain people seem able to know the figures off by heart is just...I can't even describe without a warning, most likely. It's not fun. This board is supposed to be fun. This THREAD was fun until that same black cloud loomed over it. Can we just try to be fans again? I'll take in-depth discussions about workrate over ratings talk. So what you're saying is because you're not having fun, everyone else should drop what they're discussing and talk about what you want? Okay, everyone stop it. We have to talk in kayfabe now. Well, that was kind of the purpose of this very thread. Not to mention the OP is a poster very high on the "lets have fun again" idea, and I agree with it. I'm not telling anyone to do anything, it was more a plea than anything.
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Post by WarChief on Aug 21, 2012 0:57:00 GMT -5
So what you're saying is because you're not having fun, everyone else should drop what they're discussing and talk about what you want? Okay, everyone stop it. We have to talk in kayfabe now. Can I join the dWo? In kayfabe, of course. I dunno brother, you can't just show up wearin the gold and black Jack. We have a very complex selection process Dude. You don't wanna end up like the Nasty Boys brother.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2012 1:08:01 GMT -5
Cena's promo on Punk was one of the best promos Cena's ever cut. Even better is the fact that you knew most of that came from Cena's heart. He meant what he said and that's what made it powerful. He needs to stay with more serious heartfelt promos and stay away from kiddy ones and it would work out best for him. After all that was said I truly do think Punk will lose the belt at Night of Champions. Besides Punk heeling it out, besides the fact that Cena's comments were the truth, besides the fact they've been constantly talking about how long he's held the belt and besides the fact that Cena's face is on the cover of Night of Champions practically saying "It's good to be home" we have this tonight. Until the ppv they're going to really be doing whatever it takes to make Punk as much of a heel asshole as possible so that when he loses it'll be deserved. It is what it is. Cena told the truth. It worked well. All is good. I cannot understand this logic. How was Cena telling the truth? Any truth he's telling is perpetuated by the way CM Punk has been booked. Punk was apparently told to go out there and speak in a deflated monotone about being disrespected, and then Cena went on a cheap-filled politician rant about earning respect instead of whining, further burying Punk's title reign in the process. If Punk really is complaining backstage, fine, but we have no way of knowing that. It's just like when Eve was written to tell Punk he had been overshadowed by everyone, like he actually has (again, due to the writing/format of the shows), and people were like "oh man, what a promo by Eve, she just owned Punk on the mic!" How? Did Punk choose to make himself Mr. 10 o'clock or Mr. Semi-main event champion? Of course not. He's getting "owned" for things that are completely out of his control, it's just stupid. You can blame it on Punk's booking but when it's all said and done Cena's main evented, earned his spot, he's done what it takes and he continued to do that. It's not as if once you become WWE Champion you take center spot above everything. Even if that was Punk's entire argument as WWE Champion regardless the belts have been put down under certain stars regardless of who they are. Yes it should be that way but it hasn't been that way in the WWE for a long time. There's a reason why Cena's "the guy", a reason why he, Hunter and others were placed above Punk and it's because they're bigger stars. They've built up a huge resume in order to be where they're at. Simple as that. It happens. I wish it wasn't that way but it's how the WWE is these days. This entire time Punk's been trying to make the WWE Championship become center stage, become the main reason, he's been trying to do it all but the problem is that it hasn't been working. He's continuously trying to do it and then we get this storyline. Cena was honestly telling the truth though. There's a reason why fans continue to support him through thick and thin, he's respected. He clawed his way to the top, fought through battles, whether they hate him or not he's respected and they know he's about. You don't see Cena cutting any of these promos. He knows and that's why fans react they do. Now "Punk" (the character that is) is different. He's demanding respect. There's a difference between demanding as he did last year and now. The fans see him doing this for 9 months and they respect his ability, respect his reign but at the same time it's hard to respect someone demanding it. You have to earn it and with that said apparently the "WWE Universe" thinks he hasn't earned as much of it as he does and neither does the company. They respect Punk enough to give him the shot on '13, interviews, have the belt, all these promotions but don't respect him enough to end a ppv since he's champion. It's ok but looking at all the perks that's pretty good for a guy who's been champ and really "came up" since last year. I don't think even Cena did that when he won the main belt back then. I digress though. But the truth thing I was talking about was respect and earning it. He was telling the truth about it. As for him being where he is on the show, I do think he should have main evented some ppvs but at the same time considering the current state of the WWE I can understand why he hasn't. He's still moving on up and under some of these others.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2012 1:10:59 GMT -5
Can I join the dWo? In kayfabe, of course. I dunno brother, you can't just show up wearin the gold and black Jack. We have a very complex selection process Dude. You don't wanna end up like the Nasty Boys brother. Look jack. Nobody knows what it's like to be 4 LIFE like I do, BRAH. I've seen all of them come in my face and all of them go to into space, I've been to the top of the mountain and the bottom of the fountain. Trust me dudeski, if you let me be a part of the gold and black attack jack, I'll have your back, and you won't have to cut me any slack. Ack!
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Post by flatsdomino on Aug 21, 2012 1:12:11 GMT -5
Cena's half was good but I still don't get how Punk saying and doing what made him face a little over a year ago is now somehow making him a heel and it seems 3/4 the audience feels the same. Cause when you've been champ for a year, it just comes off as bitchy. Except when you don't even get to main event the PPV's while you're defending the belt in five-star classics because the company has to have their golden boy close the show, no matter how irrelevant his match is. And yes, that makes sense in Kayfabe.
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Greer
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Post by Greer on Aug 21, 2012 3:57:42 GMT -5
So...
Civil War?
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
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Post by mrjl on Aug 21, 2012 6:00:08 GMT -5
there's a reason why they put on special attraction matches, like Cena/Rock or Cena/Brock or Trips/Brock on last. If someone buys for the special attraction they may tune out after it's over.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Aug 21, 2012 6:03:34 GMT -5
there's a reason why they put on special attraction matches, like Cena/Rock or Cena/Brock or Trips/Brock on last. If someone buys for the special attraction they may tune out after it's over. Cena/Kane, Cena/Ace, and Cena/Show didn't need to main event. The special occasions were the right call and I think MiTB was the right call.
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mrjl
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Post by mrjl on Aug 21, 2012 6:11:45 GMT -5
there's a reason why they put on special attraction matches, like Cena/Rock or Cena/Brock or Trips/Brock on last. If someone buys for the special attraction they may tune out after it's over. Cena/Kane, Cena/Ace, and Cena/Show didn't need to main event. The special occasions were the right call and I think MiTB was the right call. Cena/Ace did for the logic reason that if he won before the end of the show he could use his power again. Say make the WWE title match a handicap match or something
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trollrogue
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Post by trollrogue on Aug 21, 2012 6:17:15 GMT -5
I thought the promo was only so-so. I think we're used to expecting the bottom of the barrel from Cena, that when he actually bring something half-decent to the table, it seems more impressive. "Blah blah respect. Blah blah, cheap local pop. Blah blah, believe in yourself. Now either you're afraid to really prove yourself as the best or you'll pick me of the title shot at NoC." It wasn't bad at all, but nothing special really. I disagree, it was a fine promo to me. I wouldn't be surprised if a professional political speech writer gave that one to Cena. From the small points (his clever-yet-cheap pop about collegiate sports that doubled as an example of CM Punk's hypocrisy) to the big ones (the first time he acknowledged the weight of losing to the Rock at 'Mania despite promising his fans that he would win-- all of which was magnified by Jericho's loss earlier, and HHH's loss earlier-earlier at SS) it verbally dissected the shallow respect demand from Punk. The coup de grâce, and what I think many other posters refer to when they say Cena was telling the 'truth' about Punk-- every wrestler in kayfabe goes out to win when they compete. To acknowledge that CM Punk is indeed the 'Best in the World' if you are a current WWE Superstar basically means you don't have confidence in yourself. It's a simple truth that works to Punk's advantage when he's a face (he's got high self-confidence and will always try to prove he is the BitW) and also as a heel when he's demanding respect after stealing victories. Rather than say that Cena had a great promo, I'm more impressed by Punk's nuanced acting to make him largely stay the same cocky personality he's always been during the SES and yet dip in and out of face/tweener/heel status at will. Jericho-like in the ability to switch allegiances at a hat, I'd say.
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Arrow
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Arrow on Aug 21, 2012 6:29:38 GMT -5
That's not evading the point. WWE hasn't established anything, it's the fans. I'm sick of people trying to blame WWE for "not creating stars" and "not using guys properly" when a lot of the time it's because people are changing the channel when specific guys go on tv. WWE isn't making it so the WWE Title isn't as important as Cena, it's the fact that when Punk has been champion, he hasn't done all that great with ratings, when guys like Cena, Triple H, Lesnar, and The Rock have. Triple H usually garners around a 3.6-3.7 rating every time he was in the 10:00 spot. CM Punk never even came close to that in the 10:00 spot. The ratings don't just shoot up over night. Austin turned babyface at Mania 13, ratings didn't shoot up overnight. They stayed low until the next year, when he won the Rumble, and MAIN EVENTED Wrestlemania for the WWF title, was put over by the top star and got the rub from a huge celebrity, instead of being in an afterthought match compared to the "real" draws like Rock/Cena/Taker/Trips/HBK. The difference is that Austin didn't start main eventing when he became a babyface. He spent a year in the upper-midcard still coming after Bret/Hart/'Taker/etc. (unless he happened to be facing Bret or 'Taker). By the time Austin entered the main event in 1998, Bret was gone and Michaels was on his way out the door, and he was ready. That's the point. You don't just automatically shoot up above everyone else, you work your way to that position, and you prove you can make money on a lower level. Austin did that, Punk still hasn't. Not enough to justify being placed above Cena.
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Arrow
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Arrow on Aug 21, 2012 6:33:50 GMT -5
But you also have to take into cinsideration that this is 3 out of only 6 shows that Cena didn't close as champion due to the brand split situation of the period. Compare that to Punk's (since, but not including winning the belt at MITB of Survivor Series) has closed the show as defending champion 2 (SummerSlam, TLC) out of 10 shows. That's a very big difference between the two. Yeah, there is. Cena could only main event three out of six shows as champion on a brand where the star power on Raw was half of what we have today. Even with HHH/'Taker/Rock showing up here and there and no brand split, Punk somehow got to close two as the defending champion. If there had been no split in 2005, I think it's safe to assume that Cena wouldn't have touched the main event at all that year.
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Post by -Lithium- on Aug 21, 2012 6:36:11 GMT -5
Cena may have made a couple decent and interesting points, but it seemed like everything else was the "I COME OUT HERE AND BUST MY ASS CAUSE THIS IS MY LIFE BLOOD SWEAT TEARS PASSION HUSTLE LOYALTY RESPECT SWEAT HARD WORK THESE PEOPLE EVERYTHING TO ME" promo that he cuts at (absolute) least every three months.
Luckily its not a weekly promo, like it seemed to be in 2006-07, but yeah...it's gett--, been old for a long time now...
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Arrow
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Arrow on Aug 21, 2012 6:40:05 GMT -5
For once, can we just shut the hell up about ratings and buyrates in a discussion? It's seriously cancerous to this board. You can't, because things like ratings/buyrates are probably exactly WHY Cena main events over Punk. And since that's the issue here, it's going to come in at some point.
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dav
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Post by dav on Aug 21, 2012 7:06:57 GMT -5
Not as if Punk has much of a standing poinnt against Cena in kayfabe either really. He's only beaten him twice due to inteference and referee incompetence while before that, Cena made him tap out in 2010 in the time it takes to make a cuppa.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2012 7:07:35 GMT -5
Exactly. They had a CM Punk who was outpopping Cena on a nightly basis, so what did they do? Paired him up with Triple H to make him look like a tool and turned him into a backseat nobody. I can't stand face CM Punk but when he gets over by his own ability and he's putting on great main events, what on earth is the possible benefit of tearing him down? What, just to make John Cena look good again? Hogan, Austin, Rock, etc. were all main eventers for shorter spans of time than Cena's been. THOSE GUYS. Seriously, why does Cena have to still be the focus of the show? Why does it have to be about him again? It's utterly pointless. Nightly basis is something I don't agree with. Cena outpopped Punk plenty of times on Raw, and from house show reports, a lot of them as well. Why does the show have to be about Cena? Maybe because he's the top draw? Because he draws the best ratings? Because he attracts the most people? Because the most people like him? That's how wrestling works. It's not about who has the best in ring skills or who's the best on the microphone, it's about who attracts the most people and that right now is above and beyond John Cena. That's why Punk's argument fails. He can say all he wants that he should be the focus and shouldn't take a back seat to The Rock, but that was the money match. That's what people wanted to see most. It doesn't matter if Punk's the champion, if he's not drawing as well as Cena, then he doesn't deserve the focus. People can try and come up with a whole plethora of excuses for why WWE hasn't put so much focus on CM Punk that much, and by come up with excuses I mean come up with reasons to bash WWE. When CM Punk first turned face, he was outpopping Cena. By the time that they put him with Triple H and turned him into a whitebread goodie-two-shoes, his momentum was in hospice and prepared to have the plug pulled. They had a good character and ruined it. You know why? Because WWE is afraid to pull the trigger with a star people want to see just because he's not been around as long as the top guys. Personally, I felt like Raw last night was full of thinly-veiled insults to the average smark fan during the Punk/Cena segment. The whole discourse in the promo was "GIVE CENA RESPECT, BUT DON'T GIVE PUNK RESPECT, BECAUSE HE'S A WHINY BABY FOR SAYING WWE NEVER KEPT THE FOCUS ON HIM."
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