The Doctor
Dennis Stamp
New teeth. That's weird.
Posts: 4,952
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Post by The Doctor on Aug 21, 2012 12:32:01 GMT -5
Man it's almost like there's a fictional story being told in which John Cena is presented as good and CM Punk is presented as bad. Yes. That is what wrestling is. And it's being done fantastically.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2012 12:32:26 GMT -5
This is the same punk as last year with demanding respect remember last year when he demanded respect from mcmahon Only with less insider references. And 1/3 the charisma.
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The Punisher
Unicron
"They don't fear the law. They fear me..."
Posts: 3,082
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Post by The Punisher on Aug 21, 2012 15:27:04 GMT -5
Yes, Cena's promo was so spot-on about Punk's ego issues when WWE booking is the reason why Punk took a backseat in spite of his popularity. Gosh, I hate worked shoots. They're so f***ing terrible. This, basically. Punk had NO reason to take a backseat to Cena feuding with Kane, or Cena feuding with Show, or Cena feuding with Ace, or the MITB match. Instead of this being based on a tweener Punk pointing out that he deserves a chance to show that he can be the guy, he's a whiny heel while always face Cena is right. And I'm tired of everyone having to be a heel to cater to Cena, it's frustrating...especially after they finally figured it out last year with Punk. This. So much this. Everyone has to change to accommodate Cena. I AM SICK OF JOHN CENA. I wish he'd go away. I wish he'd go and feud with someone else. I wish he'd put someone over, I wish he would stop being the guy who is always right, who is always better than everyone else. Someone else has a valid point? Doesn't matter, the argument will be twisted that the person in question is wrong, and Super John is right. Punk IS a better wrestler than Cena. He may not be the best in the world, but he's a better competitor. He is a better actor, he's better at everything than that multi coloured twit who just has to turn up, say a couple of stupid lines, do a selection of useless, half baked moves, no sell for half an hour and he's treated as the number one guy in the company. Punk looks annoyed with the storyline. The crowd cheered when he thrashed Lawler. He's an effective face, perhaps not as good as he is when he's a heel, but he has become a popular champion, yet he's not been given the chance to run with the ball because WWE are resistant to let someone else shine. They've only let him keep the WWE title this long to keep him on an even keel with Cena. It's like the title is a way to keep Punk important while they still funnel all their resources into Super John. You may argue Cena hasn't worn the title and been booked to lose many PPV matches in the last 12 months, but how weak has he looked in those? It was his own "arrogance" that cost him against The Rock, otherwise, WWE would have you believe, Cena would have won. Had Punk not gone behind his back and thrown him out of the ring after the AA on Big Show, then Cena would have won the title, or so WWE want you to believe. Even when it's the other way around, and he gets absolutely destroyed, like he did against Lesnar, then he ends up winning. Nothing can be done to weaken Cena. He can't turn heel, others have to look weak in front of him, and he always has to be right. I'd just love for him to be made a fool of, then lose to the guy ho's done it, if nothing else other than to break the damned cycle of Cena always being right.
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Post by Hurbster on Aug 21, 2012 15:36:42 GMT -5
I liked the promo, the whining about it on this forum - not so much.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2012 15:40:21 GMT -5
Cena is amazing.
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dpg
Samurai Cop
Posts: 2,480
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Post by dpg on Aug 21, 2012 15:42:31 GMT -5
As a guy who doesn't watch much WWE (unless its on when I'm hopping channels, darn sky sports constantly replaying WWE shows) and isn't a major fan of either guy, I'd say I was fairly neutral here. I know people say that Cena is a draw and CM Punk isn't, but one has been pushed as THE main guy of the WWE for YEARS He's on everything, he beats everyone, no matter the odds. Not to say he isn't talented, he is, but after years of that kind of push other new stars are going to look second rate in comparison, no matter how talented.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Aug 21, 2012 15:50:43 GMT -5
This, basically. Punk had NO reason to take a backseat to Cena feuding with Kane, or Cena feuding with Show, or Cena feuding with Ace, or the MITB match. Instead of this being based on a tweener Punk pointing out that he deserves a chance to show that he can be the guy, he's a whiny heel while always face Cena is right. And I'm tired of everyone having to be a heel to cater to Cena, it's frustrating...especially after they finally figured it out last year with Punk. This. So much this. Everyone has to change to accommodate Cena. I AM SICK OF JOHN CENA. I wish he'd go away. I wish he'd go and feud with someone else. I wish he'd put someone over, I wish he would stop being the guy who is always right, who is always better than everyone else. Someone else has a valid point? Doesn't matter, the argument will be twisted that the person in question is wrong, and Super John is right. Punk IS a better wrestler than Cena. He may not be the best in the world, but he's a better competitor. He is a better actor, he's better at everything than that multi coloured twit who just has to turn up, say a couple of stupid lines, do a selection of useless, half baked moves, no sell for half an hour and he's treated as the number one guy in the company. Punk looks annoyed with the storyline. The crowd cheered when he thrashed Lawler. He's an effective face, perhaps not as good as he is when he's a heel, but he has become a popular champion, yet he's not been given the chance to run with the ball because WWE are resistant to let someone else shine. They've only let him keep the WWE title this long to keep him on an even keel with Cena. It's like the title is a way to keep Punk important while they still funnel all their resources into Super John. You may argue Cena hasn't worn the title and been booked to lose many PPV matches in the last 12 months, but how weak has he looked in those? It was his own "arrogance" that cost him against The Rock, otherwise, WWE would have you believe, Cena would have won. Had Punk not gone behind his back and thrown him out of the ring after the AA on Big Show, then Cena would have won the title, or so WWE want you to believe. Even when it's the other way around, and he gets absolutely destroyed, like he did against Lesnar, then he ends up winning. Nothing can be done to weaken Cena. He can't turn heel, others have to look weak in front of him, and he always has to be right. I'd just love for him to be made a fool of, then lose to the guy ho's done it, if nothing else other than to break the damned cycle of Cena always being right. If Punk was such a great actor and he was legitimately annoyed with a storyline you'd never know. And overall your logic of Cena must look weak so Punk can look good is.... weak
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Aug 21, 2012 15:53:31 GMT -5
This, basically. Punk had NO reason to take a backseat to Cena feuding with Kane, or Cena feuding with Show, or Cena feuding with Ace, or the MITB match. Instead of this being based on a tweener Punk pointing out that he deserves a chance to show that he can be the guy, he's a whiny heel while always face Cena is right. And I'm tired of everyone having to be a heel to cater to Cena, it's frustrating...especially after they finally figured it out last year with Punk. I think the MiTB match was right to go on last. After all the PPV was called Money in the Bank, and it should have gone on last without taking a backseat to a more important angle. Had Punk's match gone on last at MiTB, the match itself would've been over shadowed by the "Is The MiTB Winner Going To Cash-In Or Not?" factor. Had Cena won MiTB, AND the title match gone on last, people would just end up not caring about the match and waiting for the cash in, hoping that Cena would do the cheap cash in and "just turn heel already" and end up pissed because he didn't. Their minds would still be on Cena rather than Punk.
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Post by Metalheadbanger Man on Aug 21, 2012 16:01:03 GMT -5
Cena delivered the promo well, but I admit I didn't really like what he said, especially towards the end. I grinned like a loon when Punk just brushed it off and went back to Lawler.
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Post by xCompackx on Aug 21, 2012 16:06:43 GMT -5
I'm still confused as to why Cena said that Punk didn't have any respect if he didn't choose him. From a guy who lost to Punk at least 4 times now, wouldn't it be more respectful to find a new challenger?
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Aug 21, 2012 16:14:17 GMT -5
This whole thing reminds me of Savage and Hogan to a certain degree. Savage, like Punk, got hot as a heel, became a defiant face, got the belt, became a super-babyface, and pretty much carried the ball, and did it well. The whole time however, despite this success, WWF put the focus on Hogan, and built an angle around turning Savage heel to feed him to Hulk, despite the former having become as popular in the interim.
That's my issue here. If Punk's popularity was fizzling or petering out, I'd see no problems. But on the surface, in the arenas, Punk gets better receptions than John. John is the guy people care about more (be it hate or love overall), but there's no reason to turn Punk, other than they just want to keep John face, ad nauseam to the point of absurdity. They're turning Punk heel to lessen the Cena backlash at the PPV. If Punk had stayed the same, Cena would have been booed out of the building. In his own hometown. The only solace is that he probably still will be. Only we'll have to listen to manufactured, self-serving commentary about how defiant the fans are and how right Cena is.
The funny thing is, once again, WWE is booking the opposite as to what they should. John's biggest box-office has always been in matches where he was the HEEL to the crowd/fans watching, who paid to see him lose. His most celebrated bouts are those where he loses and loses spectacularly. If they could channel that into a heel turn, (keeping his character the same contradictory, smiling, hammy idiot he is) it could make a lot of money.
But alas, as someone mentioned, Cena is the eternal WWE project. They won't fully admit he's a failure as a traditional babyface, and just completely accept he's hated and will always be by half the audience, so they tear down certain people in an attempt to bring them to equal level with John. They bring them down to Cena's level, rather than riding out the fact that the crowd wants to cheer Punk or even Rock over John, because they like and can relate to him more.
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Post by misconduct was wrong on Aug 21, 2012 16:17:22 GMT -5
I wonder if Punk's matches were specifically bumped from main event status for the purpose of his eventual heel turn. Too many ppv main events as champ would take a lot away from his argument.
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Post by DrizzlinShytes on Aug 21, 2012 16:21:16 GMT -5
A couple of things I'll mention.
1. Cena still gets the biggest reaction from fans (positive and negative). He gets heat from smarks and pops from marks.
It doesn't matter who you put Cena with (there are rare exceptions), the crowd at a PPV is popping for the match. That does NOT happen with CM Punk. His feud with Del Rio fizzled. Smarks will blame Del Rio, but how many times have awful feuds with Cena ended up with hot crowds booing and cheering like crazy anyway?
Cena is THE guy. Like it or not, no one gets the crowd as intense. People were complaining about the dead crowd for HHH/Lesnar, but remember how hot the crowd was for Lesnar/Cena? I can't exactly explain it, but I side with the WWE in still concentrating on Cena. The crowd reacts to him like they do no one else.
2. From a sort of kayfabe perspective, people ITT and smarks in general had no problem disrespecting Cena when he was champ so it is hypocritical to now turn around and whine about Punk not being respected. You can say that Cena wasn't disrespected by the company when he was champ because he was the centerpiece unlike Punk now, but YOU personally did not respect Cena and in fact would have delighted to see him be put in the backseat to other wrestlers despite being champion. So it rings hollow to complain about Punk not being the centerpiece while being champion.
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Post by DrizzlinShytes on Aug 21, 2012 16:26:56 GMT -5
This whole thing reminds me of Savage and Hogan to a certain degree. Savage, like Punk, got hot as a heel, became a defiant face, got the belt, became a super-babyface, and pretty much carried the ball, and did it well. The whole time however, despite this success, WWF put the focus on Hogan, and built an angle around turning Savage heel to feed him to Hulk, despite the former having become as popular in the interim. That's my issue here. If Punk's popularity was fizzling or petering out, I'd see no problems. But on the surface, in the arenas, Punk gets better receptions than John. John is the guy people care about more (be it hate or love overall), but there's no reason to turn Punk, other than they just want to keep John face, ad nauseam to the point of absurdity. They're turning Punk heel to lessen the Cena backlash at the PPV. If Punk had stayed the same, Cena would have been booed out of the building. In his own hometown. The only solace is that he probably still will be. Only we'll have to listen to manufactured, self-serving commentary about how defiant the fans are and how right Cena is. The funny thing is, once again, WWE is booking the opposite as to what they should. John's biggest box-office has always been in matches where he was the HEEL to the crowd/fans watching, who paid to see him lose. His most celebrated bouts are those where he loses and loses spectacularly. If they could channel that into a heel turn, (keeping his character the same contradictory, smiling, hammy idiot he is) it could make a lot of money. But alas, as someone mentioned, Cena is the eternal WWE project. They won't fully admit he's a failure as a traditional babyface, and just completely accept he's hated and will always be by half the audience, so they tear down certain people in an attempt to bring them to equal level with John. They bring them down to Cena's level, rather than riding out the fact that the crowd wants to cheer Punk or even Rock over John, because they like and can relate to him more. The WWE hasn't failed with Cena. They get the best of both worlds with him. He pops crowds like no one else. He sells all kinds of merch. And at the same time he makes smarks buy tickets to boo him. Cena is the best face and heel in the company simultaneously. There is no one else like him in WWE history except maybe Bret Hart's 97 run when he was a face in Canada and heel in the US. Cena can have a hot roaring crowd against a fellow face or heel because he gives the crowd the chance to interact with each other and comment on the product to an extent they don't have with anyone else...ever. I don't see why you think it matters if Punk still is popular still or not. Often faces turn heel at the height of their popularity. That is when their heel turn can be most effective rather than a sad attempt to remain relevant. Punk's run as a face with the belt has not been a total abject failure by any stretch, but I'm struggling to think of a ton of times where Punk should have been the main event or that his storyline was the most important and had the crowd the most excited. Other than the Kane business, Cena's storyline has been the most important not just because WWE said so, but because fans reacted that way.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Aug 21, 2012 16:35:11 GMT -5
This whole thing reminds me of Savage and Hogan to a certain degree. Savage, like Punk, got hot as a heel, became a defiant face, got the belt, became a super-babyface, and pretty much carried the ball, and did it well. The whole time however, despite this success, WWF put the focus on Hogan, and built an angle around turning Savage heel to feed him to Hulk, despite the former having become as popular in the interim. That's my issue here. If Punk's popularity was fizzling or petering out, I'd see no problems. But on the surface, in the arenas, Punk gets better receptions than John. John is the guy people care about more (be it hate or love overall), but there's no reason to turn Punk, other than they just want to keep John face, ad nauseam to the point of absurdity. They're turning Punk heel to lessen the Cena backlash at the PPV. If Punk had stayed the same, Cena would have been booed out of the building. In his own hometown. The only solace is that he probably still will be. Only we'll have to listen to manufactured, self-serving commentary about how defiant the fans are and how right Cena is. The funny thing is, once again, WWE is booking the opposite as to what they should. John's biggest box-office has always been in matches where he was the HEEL to the crowd/fans watching, who paid to see him lose. His most celebrated bouts are those where he loses and loses spectacularly. If they could channel that into a heel turn, (keeping his character the same contradictory, smiling, hammy idiot he is) it could make a lot of money. But alas, as someone mentioned, Cena is the eternal WWE project. They won't fully admit he's a failure as a traditional babyface, and just completely accept he's hated and will always be by half the audience, so they tear down certain people in an attempt to bring them to equal level with John. They bring them down to Cena's level, rather than riding out the fact that the crowd wants to cheer Punk or even Rock over John, because they like and can relate to him more. The WWE hasn't failed with Cena. They get the best of both worlds with him. He pops crowds like no one else. He sells all kinds of merch. And at the same time he makes smarks buy tickets to boo him. Cena is the best face and heel in the company simultaneously. There is no one else like him in WWE history except maybe Bret Hart's 97 run when he was a face in Canada and heel in the US. Cena can have a hot roaring crowd against a fellow face or heel because he gives the crowd the chance to interact with each other and comment on the product to an extent they don't have with anyone else...ever. I don't see why you think it matters if Punk still is popular still or not. Often faces turn heel at the height of their popularity. That is when their heel turn can be most effective rather than a sad attempt to remain relevant. Punk's run as a face with the belt has not been a total abject failure by any stretch, but I'm struggling to think of a ton of times where Punk should have been the main event or that his storyline was the most important and had the crowd the most excited. Other than the Kane business, Cena's storyline has been the most important not just because WWE said so, but because fans reacted that way. I never said he was a failure. I said he failed as a traditional top babyface (universally loved and accepted as the story's hero). I wrote it that way so people wouldn't think I was bemoaning Cena himself, but rather the mold they want him to be. I agree with what you said though.
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Post by Some Guy on Aug 21, 2012 16:40:24 GMT -5
A couple of things I'll mention. 1. Cena still gets the biggest reaction from fans (positive and negative). He gets heat from smarks and pops from marks. It doesn't matter who you put Cena with (there are rare exceptions), the crowd at a PPV is popping for the match. That does NOT happen with CM Punk. His feud with Del Rio fizzled. Smarks will blame Del Rio, but how many times have awful feuds with Cena ended up with hot crowds booing and cheering like crazy anyway? Cena is THE guy. Like it or not, no one gets the crowd as intense. People were complaining about the dead crowd for HHH/Lesnar, but remember how hot the crowd was for Lesnar/Cena? I can't exactly explain it, but I side with the WWE in still concentrating on Cena. The crowd reacts to him like they do no one else. 2. From a sort of kayfabe perspective, people ITT and smarks in general had no problem disrespecting Cena when he was champ so it is hypocritical to now turn around and whine about Punk not being respected. You can say that Cena wasn't disrespected by the company when he was champ because he was the centerpiece unlike Punk now, but YOU personally did not respect Cena and in fact would have delighted to see him be put in the backseat to other wrestlers despite being champion. So it rings hollow to complain about Punk not being the centerpiece while being champion. 1. Punk's feud with ADR got the exact same kind of reaction as Cena's, so I don't think your comparison works here. And Cena's feud with Show had a ton of dead heat, and the Bryan/Punk feud was getting far more crowd reception by a considerable amount. Not that it matters, because gotta keep Cena ending the show. 2. If Cena was shut out of the main event for eight straight PPVs while holding the WWE title, people would be pissed. Saying otherwise is just a Strawman, since he has never had that kind of streak or anything even close to it as champ.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Aug 21, 2012 16:41:37 GMT -5
I wonder if Punk's matches were specifically bumped from main event status for the purpose of his eventual heel turn. Too many ppv main events as champ would take a lot away from his argument. I doubt it. He just happened to be champ at a time they've done a lot of special attractions. He won it at PPV with the Rock appearing. Next he defended it at a PPV in the main and Cena didn't wrestle Next the Rumble rightfully main evented At EC he opened, Cena was in the main. This is one where they could have just as easily flipped the card on it's head Next at Mania Rock was in the main Next Brock was in the main at Extreme Rules Next, Over the Limit, Laurinaitus was in the main. Having him win and be in charge of the rest of the show would have been a distraction I think. Especially with the screw job ending that everyone saw the logic flaw of. No Way Out saw us get rid of Big Johnny with Cena and Show in the main. I guess he could have gone on last here. At MiTB it was better for him he wasn't, since he couldn't be cashed in on. At Summerslam Brock was back in the main. Really I think only two of those should have had Punk in the main event
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Jonathan Michaels
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Archduke of Levity
Here since TNA was still kinda okay
Posts: 18,527
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Post by Jonathan Michaels on Aug 21, 2012 16:42:48 GMT -5
I don't care what anyone says, there is no excuse for Cena/Laurinaitis being the main event of a PPV.
It was the equivalent of Cole/Lawler main eventing a PPV, people paid their hard earned money to watch PPV caliber matches, and Cena/Laurinaitis was not a quality match.
It has forever officially replaced Angle/Henry at RR 2006 as the least deserving main event ever.
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Arrow
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 5,122
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Post by Arrow on Aug 21, 2012 17:04:30 GMT -5
2. If Cena was shut out of the main event for eight straight PPVs while holding the WWE title, people would be pissed. Saying otherwise is just a Strawman, since he has never had that kind of streak or anything even close to it as champ. If Cena was shut out of the main event for eight straight PPVs period, WWE title or not, people would be pissed. That's why they won't do it. Could Punk have main evented a couple pay-per-views? Sure. I don't argue that. But between he and Cena, WWE sees Cena as the more marketable star and thus, more often that not, he gets the top spot. It's nothing new.
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Post by The Legendary Ring Troll {BLM} on Aug 21, 2012 17:04:45 GMT -5
It has forever officially replaced Angle/Henry at RR 2006 as the least deserving main event ever. I wasn't watching at the time, but after Henry's heel run last year, I'd pay good money to see this match in the main event for the WWE title.
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