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Post by Andrew is Good on Jul 27, 2012 13:23:06 GMT -5
Then you're a "prude", a "tease" or "most likely fat and/or ugly". Yeah, life's full of little disappointments like that. I still contend people (men and women) put entirely too much stock in what other people say about them. So what dudes messaged her about wanting to bone her. Hit 'delete' and continue leading your life the way you want. Like, I live in kind of a s***ty part of Oakland. There's a fair amount of crime here - not the most, but certainly not the least, but I like my apartment, its distance to public transport and stuff like that. My parents think I'm crazy for living here and am inviting all kinds of bad things to happen to me. I know its not the safest place. I acknowledge this, yet I still live here because its my choice to do so. If I get robbed, car jacked, etc, (anything short of murder, cause - well, I'll be dead), then its not my fault, I'm not the victim, but at the same time I won't act like its so far out of the realm of possibility of happening. I won't be shocked that I got car-jacked in a s*** neighborhood. You just shrug it off and either move to a different neighborhood or get over it and continue living your life. There's a few problems with that. One of my issues is that, the whole picture thing I feel is an excuse to make it more acceptable and you should know the consequences. The problem is, and I keep wanting to bring up plenty of fish as an example, some women get comments like that for simply existing. And the problem with example of where you live is, most women can't just go off and get a sex change operation for it to stop happening. I'd like to hear more stories from women here and post more about any issues with fellow posters on this board, as it's probably happened. But most girls I've met up with on dates on pof for example get sexually harassing messages simply because they're on there with a profile, because they are a woman. Sometimes they'll walk down the street and get harassed by construction workers, like ones that I have worked with. And maybe it doesn't happen as frequently and a dating website is a bad example, but I've heard it done on here, and the anonymity of the internet does seem to make it easier to harass people and not get caught. Which is why I'm a fan of public shaming similar to To Catch a Predator (and of course, conviction and such). I was talking to a female co-worker about stuff like that going on at work, and said it should be brought up to management and dealt with. She told me that she would be viewed as a trouble maker and be causing problems, though that's a different area. Oh, there's another one. I've met numerous females at work, and yeah, sexual harassment has happened a lot. Should they just quit their jobs or just accept that and say, well, that's life? No! Things need to change and shit needs to happen.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2012 13:31:50 GMT -5
Yeah, life's full of little disappointments like that. I still contend people (men and women) put entirely too much stock in what other people say about them. So what dudes messaged her about wanting to bone her. Hit 'delete' and continue leading your life the way you want. Like, I live in kind of a s***ty part of Oakland. There's a fair amount of crime here - not the most, but certainly not the least, but I like my apartment, its distance to public transport and stuff like that. My parents think I'm crazy for living here and am inviting all kinds of bad things to happen to me. I know its not the safest place. I acknowledge this, yet I still live here because its my choice to do so. If I get robbed, car jacked, etc, (anything short of murder, cause - well, I'll be dead), then its not my fault, I'm not the victim, but at the same time I won't act like its so far out of the realm of possibility of happening. I won't be shocked that I got car-jacked in a s*** neighborhood. You just shrug it off and either move to a different neighborhood or get over it and continue living your life. There's a few problems with that. One of my issues is that, the whole picture thing I feel is an excuse to make it more acceptable and you should know the consequences. The problem is, and I keep wanting to bring up plenty of fish as an example, some women get comments like that for simply existing. And the problem with example of where you live is, most women can't just go off and get a sex change operation for it to stop happening. I'd like to hear more stories from women here and post more about any issues with fellow posters on this board, as it's probably happened. But most girls I've met up with on dates on pof for example get sexually harassing messages simply because they're on there with a profile, because they are a woman. Sometimes they'll walk down the street and get harassed by construction workers, like ones that I have worked with. And maybe it doesn't happen as frequently and a dating website is a bad example, but I've heard it done on here, and the anonymity of the internet does seem to make it easier to harass people and not get caught. Which is why I'm a fan of public shaming similar to To Catch a Predator (and of course, conviction and such). I was talking to a female co-worker about stuff like that going on at work, and said it should be brought up to management and dealt with. She told me that she would be viewed as a trouble maker and be causing problems, though that's a different area. Oh, there's another one. I've met numerous females at work, and yeah, sexual harassment has happened a lot. Should they just quit their jobs or just accept that and say, well, that's life? No! Things need to change and s*** needs to happen. I think you're making a big leap from "its acceptable" from "this is reality." There are lots of things in reality that aren't acceptable, but we still have to live in reality. I think the PoF example is a lost cause my man. Dating sites are pretty far from anything resembling the real world. Edit* - Most girls I've talked to about sexual harassment (outside of the workplace, which is a different issue) usually all say the same thing: It happens, not every guy does it and those guys that do are idiots.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Jul 27, 2012 13:35:40 GMT -5
But we shouldn't have to "accept" a reality where people are harassed for existing. And again, I'd be interested if any women had stories of harassment on these sites. It happens on Facebook, on the dating sites, where it's still not called for, in real life and well, it happens in a lot of places. So I think the dating sites deal is at least one example.
Why should we accept something that I feel can be changed. It might be pie in the sky though. I went to a job steward's training course, and the one thing that was important to me was justice, and the trainer said that it's almost a lost cause for that, because justice is so hard to fight for. It's also not a reality like, the sky is blue and that can't be changed. Attitudes have been changed overtime and I feel it's wrong to just "live with it" if you will.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2012 13:38:04 GMT -5
But we shouldn't have to "accept" a reality where people are harassed for existing. And again, I'd be interested if any women had stories of harassment on these sites. It happens on Facebook, on the dating sites, where it's still not called for, in real life and well, it happens in a lot of places. So I think the dating sites deal is at least one example. Why should we accept something that I feel can be changed. It might be pie in the sky though. I went to a job steward's training course, and the one thing that was important to me was justice, and the trainer said that it's almost a lost cause for that, because justice is so hard to fight for. It's also not a reality like, the sky is blue and that can't be changed. Attitudes have been changed overtime and I feel it's wrong to just "live with it" if you will. Because its reality man. You have to accept it, because it is real and we're all living in it. I agree - fight for change, fight for justice, but in the interim you have accept how the world works right now and act accordingly. Just because you want things to be different doesn't mean you can pretend they already are and live in that world. Also people need to understand: the internet is not the same AT ALL to the real world. They are two very different beasts.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Jul 27, 2012 13:47:33 GMT -5
But we shouldn't have to "accept" a reality where people are harassed for existing. And again, I'd be interested if any women had stories of harassment on these sites. It happens on Facebook, on the dating sites, where it's still not called for, in real life and well, it happens in a lot of places. So I think the dating sites deal is at least one example. Why should we accept something that I feel can be changed. It might be pie in the sky though. I went to a job steward's training course, and the one thing that was important to me was justice, and the trainer said that it's almost a lost cause for that, because justice is so hard to fight for. It's also not a reality like, the sky is blue and that can't be changed. Attitudes have been changed overtime and I feel it's wrong to just "live with it" if you will. Because its reality man. You have to accept it, because it is real and we're all living in it. I agree - fight for change, fight for justice, but in the interim you have accept how the world works right now and act accordingly. Just because you want things to be different doesn't mean you can pretend they already are and live in that world. Also people need to understand: the internet is not the same AT ALL to the real world. They are two very different beasts. So, there is sexual harassment randomly on the street and at the work place. And it's there on the internet as well. I do understand there is some difference, but I feel the biggest difference is ability to get caught. I just despise this idea of this person should have done this so they wouldn't have been harassed and blaming that person. I understand it can happen, but it shouldn't, and people should call bullshit on it when it happens. And that's another of my issues, is it's brushed aside. And that's why I don't like the attitude of, it's reality. It's brushed aside. It's like, you stick your thumb up your ass and go, well, don't know what to do. I'm not pretending they aren't the way they are, but I still believe that it should be called upon as bullshit, and people shouldn't be harassed for existing. Just because I know it exist doesn't mean I can't stand up against it and call it bullshit. Which I don't think anyone is saying, but I'm not a fan of this whole status quo deal. That goes the same for a number of things with me I guess.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2012 13:58:37 GMT -5
Because its reality man. You have to accept it, because it is real and we're all living in it. I agree - fight for change, fight for justice, but in the interim you have accept how the world works right now and act accordingly. Just because you want things to be different doesn't mean you can pretend they already are and live in that world. Also people need to understand: the internet is not the same AT ALL to the real world. They are two very different beasts. So, there is sexual harassment randomly on the street and at the work place. And it's there on the internet as well. I do understand there is some difference, but I feel the biggest difference is ability to get caught. I just despise this idea of this person should have done this so they wouldn't have been harassed and blaming that person. I understand it can happen, but it shouldn't, and people should call bulls*** on it when it happens. And that's another of my issues, is it's brushed aside. And that's why I don't like the attitude of, it's reality. It's brushed aside. It's like, you stick your thumb up your ass and go, well, don't know what to do. I'm not pretending they aren't the way they are, but I still believe that it should be called upon as bulls***, and people shouldn't be harassed for existing. Just because I know it exist doesn't mean I can't stand up against it and call it bulls***. Which I don't think anyone is saying, but I'm not a fan of this whole status quo deal. That goes the same for a number of things with me I guess. What's bullshit is caring about what some anonymous person says about your profile pic on the internet. Its called the 'delete' button. Learn to use it. I understand that people have this really strange sense of entitlement about them, like nothing should ever happen to them, but that's not reality. It will never be reality. What happens in the real world - at your school or your job - is a far cry from what happens on facebook, twitter, or a message board. People need to learn to differentiate the two.
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Frosty
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 3,800
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Post by Frosty on Jul 27, 2012 13:59:14 GMT -5
Post picture with cleavage on public website, get mad when strangers comment on your cleavage. Makes sense. Also, just because someone makes a comment about your cleavage, it does not mean that person wants to rape you. {Spoiler} ![](http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b298/brandon15a/jumptoconclusions.jpg) That's why I very rarely make a comment about a person's appearance. Some people think "hey, you look nice" is sexual harassment.
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Post by Michael Coello on Jul 27, 2012 14:04:42 GMT -5
since we're going there..... ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png)
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Post by Andrew is Good on Jul 27, 2012 14:19:28 GMT -5
So, there is sexual harassment randomly on the street and at the work place. And it's there on the internet as well. I do understand there is some difference, but I feel the biggest difference is ability to get caught. I just despise this idea of this person should have done this so they wouldn't have been harassed and blaming that person. I understand it can happen, but it shouldn't, and people should call bulls*** on it when it happens. And that's another of my issues, is it's brushed aside. And that's why I don't like the attitude of, it's reality. It's brushed aside. It's like, you stick your thumb up your ass and go, well, don't know what to do. I'm not pretending they aren't the way they are, but I still believe that it should be called upon as bulls***, and people shouldn't be harassed for existing. Just because I know it exist doesn't mean I can't stand up against it and call it bulls***. Which I don't think anyone is saying, but I'm not a fan of this whole status quo deal. That goes the same for a number of things with me I guess. What's bulls*** is caring about what some anonymous person says about your profile pic on the internet. Its called the 'delete' button. Learn to use it. I understand that people have this really strange sense of entitlement about them, like nothing should ever happen to them, but that's not reality. It will never be reality. What happens in the real world - at your school or your job - is a far cry from what happens on facebook, twitter, or a message board. People need to learn to differentiate the two. I don't get people feeling a sense of entitlement that they shouldn't be sexually harassed. If I say people shouldn't murder me, how do I feel entitled? That's f***ed. Nobody should be sexually harassed. It's the principle. That's the whole point of it, what gives someone the right to sexually harass someone? I know it happens, but that doesn't make it any less bulls***. And what about issues where things on Facebook, twitter or a message board goes beyond the message board? I feel there's a lack of sympathy from some people, maybe based on not being able to relate or the idea of being responsible for everything that happens to you, no matter what it is. I think it also brings up the whole culture of entitlement, and people hate it so much, that they consider wanting to not be sexually harassed as "entitled".
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Sektor
Unicron
The OTHER Big Red Machine.
Posts: 2,808
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Post by Sektor on Jul 27, 2012 14:31:06 GMT -5
This is going in circles, guys. Honestly, just agree to disagree. Neither philosophy is wrong.
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
Posts: 37,379
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Post by The Ichi on Jul 27, 2012 14:33:36 GMT -5
This is going in circles, guys. It's not a FAN debate if that's not happening.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2012 14:46:30 GMT -5
What's bulls*** is caring about what some anonymous person says about your profile pic on the internet. Its called the 'delete' button. Learn to use it. I understand that people have this really strange sense of entitlement about them, like nothing should ever happen to them, but that's not reality. It will never be reality. What happens in the real world - at your school or your job - is a far cry from what happens on facebook, twitter, or a message board. People need to learn to differentiate the two. I don't get people feeling a sense of entitlement that they shouldn't be sexually harassed. If I say people shouldn't murder me, how do I feel entitled? That's f***ed. Nobody should be sexually harassed. It's the principle. That's the whole point of it, what gives someone the right to sexually harass someone? I know it happens, but that doesn't make it any less bulls***. And what about issues where things on Facebook, twitter or a message board goes beyond the message board? I feel there's a lack of sympathy from some people, maybe based on not being able to relate or the idea of being responsible for everything that happens to you, no matter what it is. I think it also brings up the whole culture of entitlement, and people hate it so much, that they consider wanting to not be sexually harassed as "entitled". I was talking about people on the 'net talking smack to one another, not murdering people (ie the whole 'delete' button comment). Come on, man seriously...you're really blowing things way outta proportion. But you know, on principle I agree with you about the issue of sexual harassment, of course it shouldn't happen. I just think that until people actually do something about it, we all have to a full understanding of the world in which we live and not pretend that just because things should be better that we can all act like they are already better.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Jul 27, 2012 15:02:25 GMT -5
I don't get people feeling a sense of entitlement that they shouldn't be sexually harassed. If I say people shouldn't murder me, how do I feel entitled? That's f***ed. Nobody should be sexually harassed. It's the principle. That's the whole point of it, what gives someone the right to sexually harass someone? I know it happens, but that doesn't make it any less bulls***. And what about issues where things on Facebook, twitter or a message board goes beyond the message board? I feel there's a lack of sympathy from some people, maybe based on not being able to relate or the idea of being responsible for everything that happens to you, no matter what it is. I think it also brings up the whole culture of entitlement, and people hate it so much, that they consider wanting to not be sexually harassed as "entitled". I was talking about people on the 'net talking smack to one another, not murdering people (ie the whole 'delete' button comment). Come on, man seriously...you're really blowing things way outta proportion. But you know, on principle I agree with you about the issue of sexual harassment, of course it shouldn't happen. I just think that until people actually do something about it, we all have to a full understanding of the world in which we live and not pretend that just because things should be better that we can all act like they are already better. This is definitely going in circles. In regards to net talking smack people, like, I haven't been harassed on the internet before, so I guess it's hard for me to relate personally, so even my sympathy maybe overblown. I'd like to hear stories from some of the women, though some people here might not make a big deal of their harassment on this message board. Or others might end up mocking them and getting after them for that. But in regards to people actually doing something about it, I think the first step is that when stuff like this happens, people shouldn't just ignore it. Because I feel that's just the easy way. That's why I love the To Catch a Predator concept. I don't think anyone is acting like things are already better, but I don't see anything wrong with having a standard where people are treated equal and one portion of the population doesn't have to worry about what they look like, in case people sexually harass them. That chick in the first post did a great thing by saying, some f***ers are sexually harassing me, and expose the problem there, so that it's out in the open. Again, bringing up talking to a co-worker, basically one way in solving sexual harassment for her was basically finding friends of hers and a bunch of them corner the guy and set him straight, if you get me. Another was this older man was gawking at her , not like regular looks that most people do, I'm talking blatant staring at her for one quarter of the shift. She's bigger then him too, so she went up to him and threatened him. She could have beat the f*** out of him, but she would have been fired. Which goes back to singling the person who is doing the sexual harassment and realizing, look asshole, you're f***ed up.
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Lancers
El Dandy
Oh you
Posts: 7,951
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Post by Lancers on Jul 27, 2012 15:10:33 GMT -5
I have a very simple rule when it comes to risque photos on Facebook.
Do not compliment her. Do not put her down. Write nothing.
Simply go to the photo, right click and save before she takes it down because of all the perverted comments.
That way, you can appreciate her beauty without making her weirded out. Win-win.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Jul 27, 2012 17:25:27 GMT -5
Quick question, by the way, just relating to the girl in the first post.
Where did she post this picture? The internet is a hyooooge place, and if you're posting your Facebook pictures 1. on a public group where anyone can see them and 2. on your own profile without setting it to private, then hell yeah you can expect creeps, because there are creeps on the internet. If she's 3. posted it on her own profile which is private and people she has added are sending those messages then deary, I think it's time for a Facebook friend cull.
And yeah it's a shitty world we live in and there is some element of victim blame, but to be honest, that's not always a bad thing. A house full of my friends got robbed at university and not a single one of them had insured themselves, despite them 1. being students in a student area which was frequently targeted 2. leaving the house unsecure.
By all means, you can complain that the world sucks because you got perved on/robbed, because it's pretty shitty that you have to put up with perversion/theft. But you have to know the risks and if you're not going to prepare for them... fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...
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Post by HMARK Center on Jul 27, 2012 17:29:25 GMT -5
Seems the discussion seems to be going to whether online harassment (not to mention offline harassment) is just the "nature of the beast" or if people should work to build an online culture where it's not acceptable.
EVERYBODY is acknowledging that a person has to be aware of where they're posting things that could potentially lead to harassment; nobody's disagreeing with that, nobody's saying "do whatever you want and don't expect some people to be jerks." To just not acknowledge that is to be naive.
What some are arguing is that if a woman (in this case; it could be a man in other instances involving different types of harassment) does put something with that potential online and gets harassed, while she shouldn't be "surprised" over it, it SHOULD be called out.
It's daunting, obviously, but just saying "it is what it is, live with it" seems to brush aside any possible solution (even just a marginal solution) to a much larger problem. As said above, there are women who are routinely harassed in the workplace, yet are terrified that if they speak up about it they face either a heightened risk to their job security, or at least face being ostracized and being looked at as a "problem" in the workplace.
The issue many (myself included) have is the seeming underlying message that a girl in such a situation as described in the OP "shouldn't act surprised" or "don't say </whatever>". Again, should the girl be aware of the risks? Absolutely. But it's ridiculous, in my book, to tell somebody not to speak their frustrations about such issues.
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Post by Ishmeal Loves Kaseyhausen on Jul 27, 2012 19:44:19 GMT -5
Are we differentiating between commenting on/to random people vs. doing so towards our friends? My girl friends know my sense of humor and know the comments I will make on such a picture. In that setting, I don't see anything wrong, if a friend posts a pic such as that in the OP, with commenting "nice boobs."
However, to say something to someone you don't know, aren't friends with, or might take what you say the wrong way is unacceptable.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jul 27, 2012 23:44:01 GMT -5
Are we differentiating between commenting on/to random people vs. doing so towards our friends? My girl friends know my sense of humor and know the comments I will make on such a picture. In that setting, I don't see anything wrong, if a friend posts a pic such as that in the OP, with commenting "nice boobs." However, to say something to someone you don't know, aren't friends with, or might take what you say the wrong way is unacceptable. Yeah, obviously with friends/loved ones there are boundaries that both sides tend to know; even among friends of the same gender people will often write each other absolutely horrid things, but since they're close they know it's meant in jest. This is more about strangers, or people who might be acquainted but don't understand boundaries.
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Post by Threadkiller [Classic] on Jul 28, 2012 1:54:47 GMT -5
Haven't read the entire thread, but my completely useless and inflammatory opinion:
NO WOMAN should be subjected to the idea that she somehow deserves to be harassed for how she dresses. BUT any time a female posts a photo such as this, she has to be prepared for this kind of response, to shrug it off as best she can as opposed to acknowledging or engaging such a reaction, assuming it's of a harassing nature which, if it is, should be flagged so the Facebook admins can look at it.
But it's to the point where I'm not certain if a woman posts a pic like that she has much cause to complain when a bunch of guys tell her how hot she is. I'm sure there are some valid reasons to have posted the pic, but I can't imagine any of them beyond the immediate desire to be seen as attractive. Like, please, somebody tell me what other purpose a picture like this could serve other than for all of her friends (male or female) to come out of the woodwork and tell her she looks good?
I'm sympathetic to girls who don't go out seeking harassment, but it gets to the "Tyra Banks" point where some girls dress provocatively just to complain how they're getting "raped" by a guys' eyes, in clear disregard to women who actually have been sexually assaulted. It's like, get over yourself and just admit you want attention, and maybe this can all go away. But don't pretend like there was any other motive behind the photo. Posing for a photo, in and of itself, mainly serves one of two purposes: 1) preserving a moment for posterity and 2) trying to present oneself in the best possible light. I sincerely doubt she was commemorating anything with this pic.
AGAIN, I'm not saying any woman deserves to be harassed for how they dress or how they present themselves, but a certain amount of responsibility needs to be accorded to the female who chooses to present herself this way, if not a self-awareness of how she'll be viewed for this. And I'd say the same to a male who tries to show his six-pack off without a shirt on, or tries to let his swim trunks creep below the waist line to show his "happy trail." Don't try and present yourself as some kind of model if you don't want people to view you that way. Otherwise, you're open to the same kinds of criticisms and oggling.
And I hate saying it, but it's just to the point that I think society, as a whole, needs to stop being so lenient on some people. There are women (and men) who've genuinely been victimized without warrant, while others wear little and less, and to what end? It's not for comfort's sake. It's to be seen as attractive, as desirable, to draw eyes and attention. You don't get to choose the kind of attention you get, so be mindful of how you want to be seen before you head on out there. It's a double standard, inasmuch as guys aren't held to this same standard of modesty, but that's just how it is. There are double standards that affect guys too. It's the way the world works. I'm sorry.
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boolz
AC Slater
Wooooo 1 post
Posts: 164
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Post by boolz on Jul 28, 2012 4:01:32 GMT -5
^^^
Between the words and the sig you might be my favorite poster. I mean good god look at those 'lovely bits'!
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