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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2013 10:50:12 GMT -5
I feel the need to add this for some reason
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The Ichi
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Post by The Ichi on Apr 30, 2013 12:47:01 GMT -5
I think it's important to discern the difference between bad boy and asshole. Yes, there is one.
The general idea of a bad boy is John Travolta from Grease (or something more recent...I'm old, shut up). Hard on the outside, soft on the inside. Being abusive doesn't make you a bad boy, it makes you a prick.
That being said, the idea that all women want this same thing is silly, and usually only said by men with an axe to grind (I admit I've done it myself).
Finally, I agree with Banjo that not all nice guys should be shit on. Believe it or not, sometimes it is genunine and not because of an ulterior motive. It is starting to disturb me a bit how the idea of being nice has become a warning sign.
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Post by Munkie91087 on Apr 30, 2013 13:48:30 GMT -5
Let me just say this, there is a difference between being a nice person and being a "nice guy." Nice people do things because it's the right thing to do. "Nice guys" do things and then expect the women to sleep with them in return. Like the women OWE it to them. Oh you listened to them talk about their ex, bought them a nice gift or whatever else. Guess what? Just because you did nice things doesn't mean a woman is entitled to sleep with you. That's the distinction. It's feeling entitled sex because you did nice things. It's something children do, but the problem is many of these "nice guys" never grow up. So they keep this practice well into adulthood. Then when the girl doesn't return the favor, they say something like "that slut just wants to date bad boys! Why can't a nice guy like me get the girl?!" Because no girl owes you anything. If the girl chooses a "bad boy" over a "nice guy" that's her business. I know plenty of really great guys are that in happy, healthy relationships and they didn't do it by being "nice guys," they did it by being genuine.
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Post by The Captain on Apr 30, 2013 14:07:14 GMT -5
Genuinely nice guys don't have to whine and lament about being a nice guy and no girl wanting them usually. Not saying that they're always going to get women, but they don't feel like they're entitled to them because they're doing something that's supposed to be a given. They also complain (a lot) about how no woman would want them even if they put them on a pedestal or treat them like a goddess. Women generally want to be treated like human beings, not objects of affection or worship. It's still objectification even if it doesn't come from an intentionally malicious place.
From my personal experiences, guys who label themselves as nice guys aren't really all that nice. If anything they tend to be complete douchebags even if they don't realize it.
True nice guys:
- Are friends with women without expecting anything in return but that friendship.
- Respect women's feelings. If a guy develops feelings for a female friend, he shouldn't hold a grudge if the attraction isn't mutual. Not that he should continue to be in a mentally unhealthy friendship with her if he can't handle just being friends, but he doesn't try to force anything that isn't there.
- Doesn't think he's entitled to sex, even if he's in a relationship. Again, if he feels like his sexual needs aren't being met, that's serious discussion material and grounds for ending a relationship due to sexual incompatbility. Same goes for the woman. But no means no, no matter if it's just a random stranger, a girlfriend, or a wife.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2013 14:48:30 GMT -5
It usually begins with them desiring someone who has high self esteem and then realizing they themselves have low self esteem.
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Ben Wyatt
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Apr 30, 2013 15:04:41 GMT -5
Genuinely nice guys don't have to whine and lament about being a nice guy and no girl wanting them usually. Not saying that they're always going to get women, but they don't feel like they're entitled to them because they're doing something that's supposed to be a given. They also complain (a lot) about how no woman would want them even if they put them on a pedestal or treat them like a goddess. Women generally want to be treated like human beings, not objects of affection or worship. It's still objectification even if it doesn't come from an intentionally malicious place. From my personal experiences, guys who label themselves as nice guys aren't really all that nice. If anything they tend to be complete douchebags even if they don't realize it. True nice guys: - Are friends with women without expecting anything in return but that friendship. - Respect women's feelings. If a guy develops feelings for a female friend, he shouldn't hold a grudge if the attraction isn't mutual. Not that he should continue to be in a mentally unhealthy friendship with her if he can't handle just being friends, but he doesn't try to force anything that isn't there. - Doesn't think he's entitled to sex, even if he's in a relationship. Again, if he feels like his sexual needs aren't being met, that's serious discussion material and grounds for ending a relationship due to sexual incompatbility. Same goes for the woman. But no means no, no matter if it's just a random stranger, a girlfriend, or a wife. And guys that don't adhere to your 3 points are the kind that then whine about the "friend zone" |
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Post by HMARK Center on Apr 30, 2013 15:19:08 GMT -5
I'll say something that I haven't seen mentioned and may not be too popular: Some women love drama. They love playing the victim when the "bad boy" inevitably screws them over. Nothing is more frustrating than seeing my female friends cry and whine about there not being any good guys out there, then proceeding to go seeking the same type of undependable jackoff Certainly, but that's something that rings true for both men and women. Some people can't get enough of feeling like they carry a large burden, and can "play victim" with it sometimes, but that's hardly gender specific. A lot of this also plays into what we are socialized to believe is acceptable behavior between the sexes. Men and women are equally likely to enjoy casual sex with a certain type of person, yet not have long-term relationship hopes with that type of person. Finding something sexually attractive doesn't mean it's what you're looking to spend the rest of your life with, and again, that goes for both genders. A post on the first page put it well: "bad guys" aren't necessarily deeply appealing to most women, but on a shallow, short-term-fling level, they'll certainly outshine guys around them who don't demonstrate any real self-esteem. Obviously there will be women who then sink time into relationships with guys who are anywhere from thoughtless to out and out vile, but, again...this isn't gender specific. |
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Post by SHAKEMASTER TV9 is Don Knotts on Apr 30, 2013 15:39:45 GMT -5
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Apr 30, 2013 15:56:42 GMT -5
I think it's important to discern the difference between bad boy and asshole. Yes, there is one. The general idea of a bad boy is John Travolta from Grease (or something more recent...I'm old, shut up). Hard on the outside, soft on the inside. Being abusive doesn't make you a bad boy, it makes you a prick. That being said, the idea that all women want this same thing is silly, and usually only said by men with an axe to grind (I admit I've done it myself). Finally, I agree with Banjo that not all nice guys should be shit on. Believe it or not, sometimes it is genunine and not because of an ulterior motive. It is starting to disturb me a bit how the idea of being nice has become a warning sign. I think it is kind of sad. I DO buy into the idea that a lot of so-called "nice guys" are just putting up a front and think it entitles them to get laid (which isn't nice at all), and a bunch of them are just indecisive whiners (I should know, I was one at one time), but I think there's also merit to the idea that some people are just as judgmental and paranoid on the other end of the coin. it's also kind of creepy how much mob mentality there is about jumping up and down on guys who legitimately just don't know how to talk to women properly and just want advice. |
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Sephiroth
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Post by Sephiroth on Apr 30, 2013 16:06:30 GMT -5
Am I the only one thinking of that scene from Wreck it Ralph? "You are bad guy, but that does not mean you are BAD guy!"
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Post by Wolf Hawkfield no1 NZ poster on Apr 30, 2013 17:07:40 GMT -5
Finally, I agree with Banjo that not all nice guys should be shit on. Believe it or not, sometimes it is genuine and not because of an ulterior motive. It is starting to disturb me a bit how the idea of being nice has become a warning sign. But has anyone in this thread actually done that. Its been made quite clear by posters here that there is a world of difference between a guy who is a genuinely good person and some chump who thinks being nice should entitle them sex and affection from women. |
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J is Justice
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Post by J is Justice on Apr 30, 2013 17:11:41 GMT -5
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Post by Piccolo on Apr 30, 2013 17:12:22 GMT -5
it's also kind of creepy how much mob mentality there is about jumping up and down on guys who legitimately just don't know how to talk to women properly and just want advice. Was this guy asking for advice without whining about how "women love drama", or "women like to be treated badly", or "I'm just too nice", or "Why do I keep getting friendzoned?" Or was he saying, "Hey guys, I'm pretty shy. How do you get over your initial nervousness when you're talking to someone you're attracted to?" Because if it's the first several, I don't feel bad for him. He has a not-nice-at-all attitude that makes it unlikely he'll be able to implement any good advice. If it's the latter, then yeah, people should treat him more nicely. |
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The Ichi
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AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
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Post by The Ichi on Apr 30, 2013 17:57:14 GMT -5
Finally, I agree with Banjo that not all nice guys should be shit on. Believe it or not, sometimes it is genuine and not because of an ulterior motive. It is starting to disturb me a bit how the idea of being nice has become a warning sign. But has anyone in this thread actually done that. Its been made quite clear by posters here that there is a world of difference between a guy who is a genuinely good person and some chump who thinks being nice should entitle them sex and affection from women. My point was that thanks to the fake "nice guys", genuine ones tend to get unfairly lumped into the same group as them. It's now become hard to tell the difference. |
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Apr 30, 2013 21:12:49 GMT -5
it's also kind of creepy how much mob mentality there is about jumping up and down on guys who legitimately just don't know how to talk to women properly and just want advice. Was this guy asking for advice without whining about how "women love drama", or "women like to be treated badly", or "I'm just too nice", or "Why do I keep getting friendzoned?" Or was he saying, "Hey guys, I'm pretty shy. How do you get over your initial nervousness when you're talking to someone you're attracted to?" Because if it's the first several, I don't feel bad for him. He has a not-nice-at-all attitude that makes it unlikely he'll be able to implement any good advice. If it's the latter, then yeah, people should treat him more nicely. I was mostly referring to the second one. I've made my disdain for the first pretty clear. |
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Apr 30, 2013 21:15:07 GMT -5
Bad boys may get girls, but they're not necessarily the type of girls that nice guys would want anyway. that's also a very good point. when I was young and stupid I went after a lot of girls who weren't interested because I wasn't "bad enough" (one girl actually did say that to me). in most cases, in retrospect, it was for the best because we had nothing in common anyway. |
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Post by Wolf Hawkfield no1 NZ poster on Apr 30, 2013 23:06:11 GMT -5
But has anyone in this thread actually done that. Its been made quite clear by posters here that there is a world of difference between a guy who is a genuinely good person and some chump who thinks being nice should entitle them sex and affection from women. My point was that thanks to the fake "nice guys", genuine ones tend to get unfairly lumped into the same group as them. It's now become hard to tell the difference. Mabye and yes its unfair the some guys who are just shy and don't know how to approach women do get lumped in the chumps but like I said before most of genuine ones I know tend to do just fine with women. Though one must ask what ever happened to just being a normal guy Bad boys may get girls, but they're not necessarily the type of girls that nice guys would want anyway. that's also a very good point. when I was young and stupid I went after a lot of girls who weren't interested because I wasn't "bad enough" (one girl actually did say that to me). in most cases, in retrospect, it was for the best because we had nothing in common anyway. A good ladyfreind of summed it up neatly if a women honestly rejects a guy because he isn't a knuckle dragging macho f***tard than piff that bitch did the guy a favor. |
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Post by HMARK Center on Apr 30, 2013 23:16:38 GMT -5
I think we're conflating things here. Nobody doubts that there are guys who are genuine in wanting to be decent human beings, and who ARE decent human beings, but simply lack social skills or suffer from severe shyness when interacting with the opposite sex.
The divide comes when those guys let their intentions come out. Any guy can have a moment of wanting to yell "all women are crazy!", any guy can have times when he feels annoyed, defeated, or what have you due to dealing with rejection, but there's a clear division between that and an overt tendency to generalize, lash out, or come off as feeling entitled to something from the opposite sex. If a guy is doing that, it makes him seem like a very unappealing person. Doubt is fine, confusion is fine, but there are clear differences.
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Post by Cesaro Smirk on Apr 30, 2013 23:35:28 GMT -5
"Nice guys" in the internet sense finish last, because they're unattractive. Unattractive not meaning looks, but meaning insecure, desperate, puts a ton of pressure on you, and has a bitter attitude about women. Let's compare the three types of dating partners, and why a woman might be with a bad boy rather than a nice guy, but would really prefer something else entirely. I propose that there are good guys, nice guys, and bad boys. We know the latter two, so to define the first, a good guy is sweet, respectful, confident, and responsible. In terms of confidence and "taking control", a good guy takes control of a situation in a way that makes a woman feel like it's a gift rather than a power play; he's got this, and she can relax. If she's uneasy about anything, though, she feels comfortable telling him. A bad boy takes control in a way that makes her feel a little nervous, like she doesn't know how this is gonna turn out, but she also doesn't really want to argue with him about it. A "nice guy" never takes control at all, and she has to navigate the situation for them both. Who do you think she's gonna trust when she needs someone to lean on? If she's got no one else, she might turn to the bad boy, but if she's got a choice, it's gonna be the good guy. The nice guy, what can he do? He can barely take care of himself, she can't rely on him. When it comes to the physical stuff, a good guy approaches her in such a way that she feels both wanted and respected. He's safe, he's passionate, he respects her boundaries regarding comfort/pain, and he maintains the aura of "I really like what we do in bed, but I also enjoy making dinner with you, cuddling with you, hiking with you, and doing just about anything with you." A bad boy brings the passion, and he may be respectful of her, but she's never quite sure where she stands with him. It's fun, but not secure. The nice guy hovers around, hoping she'll initiate, or when he initiates, it's awkward and tentative. Whether true or not, the impression he gives off is that all the other stuff they do together is just window dressing for the sex he hopes to get from her. Again... bad boy is 2nd best, nice guy doesn't rate, but the good guy is by far the favorite. With her friends, the "nice guy" kind of hangs on her, or shows her off to his friends. He got a catch, and he's jealous if other guys talk to her because he might be "losing her." The bad boy doesn't care who she talks to... he's got her on the hook, he knows she's not straying. And if she does, meh, he'll just find someone else. The good guy folds her into his circle of friends and is open and friendly with her circle. He's not threatened by her platonic guy friends, and is equally platonic with his girl friends, so the comfort level is easy and pleasant. So with the bad boy, at least she can keep her friends without significant awkwardness... he's a better choice than the "nice guy." But the good guy is still the best. Nice guys shouldn't strive to be bad boys... bad boys are whatever. Women will be with them over a nice guy, but it's hard to ever be satisfied with a bad boy. What nice guys should strive to become are good guys. All of this for truth. |
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Post by revolver86 on Apr 30, 2013 23:36:44 GMT -5
I'm not the most attractive guy out there, and I've especially been bad at knowing how to approach women. I didn't get laid till I was 23 and only just found a girlfriend at 26. I learned a long time ago to not force or fret on the issue, just be, and you'll find that person. Now maintaining a relationship with those virginal tendencies, that's the real struggle. I almost lost my gf over the same insecurities that kept me from meeting someone, in the first place. Be a good person to the best of your ability and not give a f***, that is the recipe!
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