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Post by thelonewolf527 on Jul 18, 2013 16:56:10 GMT -5
It's just my personal preference. I'm not sure if I can take a main eventer under 5'10 seriously or any wrestler who makes me think I could kick their ass. I'd prefer them in the midcard/upper midcard. Your superior height would make you think that you could kick a trained and skilled professional wrestler's ass? I really hope you never run afoul of 5'7 Jose Aldo. Jose Aldo competes in a division where the maximum weight is 135 pounds. I doubt you'll find a ton of guys 6 foot tall fighting at that weight
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SEAN CARLESS
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Jul 18, 2013 17:45:05 GMT -5
Your superior height would make you think that you could kick a trained and skilled professional wrestler's ass? I really hope you never run afoul of 5'7 Jose Aldo. Jose Aldo competes in a division where the maximum weight is 135 pounds. I doubt you'll find a ton of guys 6 foot tall fighting at that weight Stop trying to rationalize a flawed argument. It's over. The point has been nullified. Anyway, guys like Aldo spar with guys far outside their weight class all the time in the gym -- and those are trained fighters. Ronda Rousey for example rolls with men in the Diaz camp, and often dumps them on their ass. A well-trained small guy with submission and lightning quick striking will defeat a simple bodybuilder almost every time. The level of ignorance on this, and the archaic size mindset, blows my mind. It's 2013. This archetype has been obliterated.
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Post by thelonewolf527 on Jul 18, 2013 17:48:01 GMT -5
Jose Aldo competes in a division where the maximum weight is 135 pounds. I doubt you'll find a ton of guys 6 foot tall fighting at that weight Stop trying to rationalize a flawed argument. It's over. The point has been nullified. Anyway, guys like Aldo spar with guys far outside their weight class all the time in the gym -- and those are trained fighters. Ronda Rousey for example rolls with men in the Diaz camp, and often dumps them on their ass. A well-trained small guy with submission and lightning quick striking will defeat a simple bodybuilder almost every time. The level of ignorance on this, and the archaic size mindset, blows my mind. It's 2013. This archetype has been obliterated. This has nothing to do with me, my argument is for the general public. Dave Meltzer reported that about half of WWE's tv audience is old. I forget what the age was but I believe it was at least over 50. Now, not all people are the same, but I have no doubt that there are plenty of people who are casual fans who look at Bryan and say "This guy's tiny." Do you think they give two shits about submission skills or martial arts training? No, they just want to see big guys beat each other up. As I said earlier, the ratings from here on out will show what the general public thinks of Bryan and Vince will book accordingly
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SEAN CARLESS
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Jul 18, 2013 18:01:34 GMT -5
Stop trying to rationalize a flawed argument. It's over. The point has been nullified. Anyway, guys like Aldo spar with guys far outside their weight class all the time in the gym -- and those are trained fighters. Ronda Rousey for example rolls with men in the Diaz camp, and often dumps them on their ass. A well-trained small guy with submission and lightning quick striking will defeat a simple bodybuilder almost every time. The level of ignorance on this, and the archaic size mindset, blows my mind. It's 2013. This archetype has been obliterated. This has nothing to do with me, my argument is for the general public. Dave Meltzer reported that about half of WWE's tv audience is old. I forget what the age was but I believe it was at least over 50. Now, not all people are the same, but I have no doubt that there are plenty of people who are casual fans who look at Bryan and say "This guy's tiny." Do you think they give two shits about submission skills or martial arts training? No, they just want to see big guys beat each other up. As I said earlier, the ratings from here on out will show what the general public thinks of Bryan and Vince will book accordingly The actual majority age median for WWE is 35-38. A demo that is also big into UFC and thus familiar with actual rational fight knowledge. The desired 18-35 demo is also been re-educated to know that bloated meatbags aren't the be all, end all, in physical competition. That said, if someone older or otherwise wants to see big guys only (and they do have their place), all the power to them. That's their right. But dismissing small guys because of said size is imbecilic and needs to be eradicated from perception. It's a stupid, irrational position based on nothing remotely tangible. And I don't care if age (ignorance really) is a factor. I imagine there's a lot of old idiots out there scared of a woman president or that don't think gays should be married, because that's their preference or how they were raised. But the fact is, its stupid, archaic and irrational in 2013. It's time to make room for progression. If you don't like something, it should be for rational reasons that can be measured or quantified. To argue from a flawed position renders your point worthless. You're not entitled to an opinion, you're entitled to an informed one. And for the record, I was responding earlier to what I perceived was you trying to rationalize the OP's flawed reasoning. And the allusion that Jose Aldo would potentially not do well against a big guy (especially untrained) simply because of size discrepancy.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2013 18:21:57 GMT -5
Yo it's 2013 why is this even still a thing??? Because how much disbelief someone is willing to suspend differs from person to person. Granted, personally while I generally prefer larger guys, that has nothing to do with why I can't buy Bryan as a threat to Cena; that's more because Cena's a modern Achilles but without the missed ankle and Bryan doesn't have a thing he can throw at him that can reasonably get the job done at this point.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2013 19:17:38 GMT -5
Stop trying to rationalize a flawed argument. It's over. The point has been nullified. Anyway, guys like Aldo spar with guys far outside their weight class all the time in the gym -- and those are trained fighters. Ronda Rousey for example rolls with men in the Diaz camp, and often dumps them on their ass. A well-trained small guy with submission and lightning quick striking will defeat a simple bodybuilder almost every time. The level of ignorance on this, and the archaic size mindset, blows my mind. It's 2013. This archetype has been obliterated. This has nothing to do with me, my argument is for the general public. Dave Meltzer reported that about half of WWE's tv audience is old. I forget what the age was but I believe it was at least over 50. Now, not all people are the same, but I have no doubt that there are plenty of people who are casual fans who look at Bryan and say "This guy's tiny." Do you think they give two shits about submission skills or martial arts training? No, they just want to see big guys beat each other up. As I said earlier, the ratings from here on out will show what the general public thinks of Bryan and Vince will book accordingly My uncle's one of those. He doesn't take CM Punk seriously because he's wirey and doesn't have BIG PECS. He's also a complete moron in every regard and I wish I wasn't related to him. But I digress...you're right, those fans do exist, can't deny it. But, fans that hate hosses with nothing to offer but height and physique exist too.
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Post by ritt works hard fo da chickens on Jul 18, 2013 22:28:40 GMT -5
Actually the over 50 crowd probably does better with the Bryan types. It's only the bracket of people who got into wrestling after the rise of Hulkamania who grew up with appearance above presentation and substance. Someone who was bulging muscles wasn't taken seriously, they were either underfed or some pretty boy full of vanity who did nothing but work out all day. That's why Billy Graham was a great heel. A strong man was barrel chested and had meat on his bones look at Bruno the pre-Hogan ideal of a strongman. Visible muscles was actually a sign of malnourishment. That's why bodybuilders go on bulk and cut cycles. It's hard as heck to maintain the nutrients needed to do the work required and not take in a ton of calories, especially for those over 50 who remember a time before supplements and steroids and cardiomachines.
I'd guess its only the 30-50 crowd who think Buff Bagwell is more champion looking then Chris Jericho, and their a dieing breed just as the Bruno crowd faded off, so to will the musclebound is better crowd.
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Chip
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Post by Chip on Jul 19, 2013 0:05:44 GMT -5
Yo it's 2013 why is this even still a thing??? that's more because Cena's a modern Achilles but without the missed ankle and Bryan doesn't have a thing he can throw at him that can reasonably get the job done at this point. I always saw Cena as more of a modern day wrestling version of Rocky. Neither were particularly skilled at their craft but were successful because of the sheer amount of damage they could take and come back from, a never give up attitude that saw both rise to the top. A strong chin, a lot of heart and a willingness to fight those seemingly un-winnable fights.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Jul 19, 2013 0:20:22 GMT -5
This has nothing to do with me, my argument is for the general public. Dave Meltzer reported that about half of WWE's tv audience is old. I forget what the age was but I believe it was at least over 50. Now, not all people are the same, but I have no doubt that there are plenty of people who are casual fans who look at Bryan and say "This guy's tiny." Do you think they give two shits about submission skills or martial arts training? No, they just want to see big guys beat each other up. As I said earlier, the ratings from here on out will show what the general public thinks of Bryan and Vince will book accordingly The actual majority age median for WWE is 35-38. A demo that is also big into UFC and thus familiar with actual rational fight knowledge. The desired 18-35 demo is also been re-educated to know that bloated meatbags aren't the be all, end all, in physical competition. That said, if someone older or otherwise wants to see big guys only (and they do have their place), all the power to them. That's their right. But dismissing small guys because of said size is imbecilic and needs to be eradicated from perception. It's a stupid, irrational position based on nothing remotely tangible. And I don't care if age (ignorance really) is a factor. I imagine there's a lot of old idiots out there scared of a woman president or that don't think gays should be married, because that's their preference or how they were raised. But the fact is, its stupid, archaic and irrational in 2013. It's time to make room for progression. If you don't like something, it should be for rational reasons that can be measured or quantified. To argue from a flawed position renders your point worthless. You're not entitled to an opinion, you're entitled to an informed one. And for the record, I was responding earlier to what I perceived was you trying to rationalize the OP's flawed reasoning. And the allusion that Jose Aldo would potentially not do well against a big guy (especially untrained) simply because of size discrepancy. Too me, it's not about small vs. big. As far as WWE goes, it's all about booking and consistency. I don't like the idea of an 'out-of-nowhere' win where a guy who hasn't been booked as dominant suddenly knocks off the invincible Superman. As far as this specific feud, all I'm asking for is that WWE makes it clear that Bryan has ways of beating Cena (and he definitely does) before the match actually happens. Even if in-universe, Cena ignores the signs and acts like the same arrogant douchebag that he acted like against The Rock. Just build the story, instead of going for the "OMG SHOCK! OUT OF NOWHERE!!!" moment.
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Post by sybaku on Jul 19, 2013 2:01:34 GMT -5
I'm a legitimate black belt a real black belt not a mcdojo 2 year bs program,12 years of training, and than another 3 of mma, I'm also 6 ft 250 pounds, you know who would kick my ass in every sparring match?
A 5'5" 160 pound dude who'd tap me out in a second
I have no problem believing a skilled guy the size of Bryan could murder Cena, and in the world of wrestling its even more believable.
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Post by "American Cream" Dusty Loads on Jul 19, 2013 2:10:32 GMT -5
The actual majority age median for WWE is 35-38. A demo that is also big into UFC and thus familiar with actual rational fight knowledge. The desired 18-35 demo is also been re-educated to know that bloated meatbags aren't the be all, end all, in physical competition. That said, if someone older or otherwise wants to see big guys only (and they do have their place), all the power to them. That's their right. But dismissing small guys because of said size is imbecilic and needs to be eradicated from perception. It's a stupid, irrational position based on nothing remotely tangible. And I don't care if age (ignorance really) is a factor. I imagine there's a lot of old idiots out there scared of a woman president or that don't think gays should be married, because that's their preference or how they were raised. But the fact is, its stupid, archaic and irrational in 2013. It's time to make room for progression. If you don't like something, it should be for rational reasons that can be measured or quantified. To argue from a flawed position renders your point worthless. You're not entitled to an opinion, you're entitled to an informed one. And for the record, I was responding earlier to what I perceived was you trying to rationalize the OP's flawed reasoning. And the allusion that Jose Aldo would potentially not do well against a big guy (especially untrained) simply because of size discrepancy. Too me, it's not about small vs. big. As far as WWE goes, it's all about booking and consistency. I don't like the idea of an 'out-of-nowhere' win where a guy who hasn't been booked as dominant suddenly knocks off the invincible Superman. As far as this specific feud, all I'm asking for is that WWE makes it clear that Bryan has ways of beating Cena (and he definitely does) before the match actually happens. Even if in-universe, Cena ignores the signs and acts like the same arrogant douchebag that he acted like against The Rock. Just build the story, instead of going for the "OMG SHOCK! OUT OF NOWHERE!!!" moment. Yup. They already have the whole "he knows how to get out of every submission" thing going for him, so that should put Cena at a disadvantage since he can't pull off the STF.
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Post by rybackrulez on Jul 19, 2013 11:07:17 GMT -5
Aldo competes at 145, and is the largest guy in his division. Weight class has nothing to do with siZe.
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Post by Hit Girl on Jul 19, 2013 13:21:38 GMT -5
Height and muscles mean nothing in a wrestling context. Giant Gonzalez was tall. Ted Arcidi was muscular. They both sucked.
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Post by The Masked Heel WAS WRONG on Jul 19, 2013 14:12:58 GMT -5
I seem to recall a lot of people bashing Mysterio for being World champ because he was too small and a "midget".
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Post by Hit Girl on Jul 19, 2013 17:38:50 GMT -5
Mankind was smaller and fatter than the Undertaker. It was still believable that he could be a physical match for him though, because the storyline was that he had a high threshold of pain and actually enjoyed it. If WWE sold the story properly by emphasising that Cena has the power advantage, but DB is faster, with greater stamina and more technically gifted, it's easy to sell the feud as competitive to the fanbase.
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Post by rnrk supports BLM on Jul 19, 2013 18:07:47 GMT -5
I seem to recall a lot of people bashing Mysterio for being World champ because he was too small and a "midget". And how "unrealistic" it was for him to be able to beat CM f***ing Punk during their feud.
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Post by salsashark on Jul 19, 2013 18:09:41 GMT -5
I seem to recall a lot of people bashing Mysterio for being World champ because he was too small and a "midget". Personally, any problem I had with Rey was that his offense wasn't threatening enough and he is much slower nowadays. I can hardly blame the guy after all his body has been through, but anyone who outright dismisses him because of size is foolish. It's about presentation, force of offense, etc.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2013 18:39:57 GMT -5
I seem to recall a lot of people bashing Mysterio for being World champ because he was too small and a "midget". I think there's a happy medium somewhere with the whole size thing. I don't think someone has to be really big, but it gets pretty awkward when you pair up someone like Rey vs Khali or Big Show. People like HBK or Daniel Bryan are "big enough" to me, where it doesn't really come into play though.
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Post by "American Cream" Dusty Loads on Jul 19, 2013 18:42:22 GMT -5
The problem with Rey as champ was that he was getting pretty much squashed every week after he won the title. I think it was by Kane and Big Show.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2013 18:52:32 GMT -5
I love how many martial artists in this topic are making great points. To add my two cents, I've been training five years between wrestling, judo, BJJ, Boxing and Muay Thai. At my club (ZombieProof MMA. What what.) I'm one of the biggest guys there at two hundred fifty pounds. Without trying to sound too cocky, I have no trouble overpowering and tossing most people around. You know who absolutely wrecks me though? My training partners Tyler and Mini. Tyler's 170 pounds and has such good kickboxing he dummies me. Mini is a 140 pound sparky little fireplug who's absolutely impossible to catch in anything because his technique is SO MUCH better than mine.
Cena being an inferior "Hold for Hold" grappler has long been a part of his character. It'd be nice if they stopped pretending he can overcome it with sheer will all the time and have him just lose to technique. Bryan's going to start accusing him of thinking he's weak soon anyway
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