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Post by cabbageboy on Aug 31, 2013 10:58:11 GMT -5
Here's the problem: Bischoff circa 1994 was the right man in the right place at the right time to make all of his ideas work. He wanted to buy up a bunch of free agents? Okay. Hogan was out of the WWF by 1993, Savage followed in 1994, and guys like Hall and Nash petered out by 1996. There was no one they signed that Vince really had much use for at that point. Savage was mostly an announcer by 1994, so it's not like losing him mattered. Hogan was gone for most of 1992 and did nothing but play political games in 1993 when he was there. Nash was the worst drawing long term champ in company history. Hall was an unreliable drunk. In essence Bischoff ditched guys like Steve Austin and Mick Foley (whose best days were ahead of them) to bring in 40 something guys.
Add to it Bischoff also had Turner willing to bank roll him on this spending spree and was willing to give Bischoff more TV time on Monday nights to have a personal vendetta with Vince McMahon.
Basically WCW was like the Sega of wrestling. In the 80s a distant 2nd place to WWF/Nintendo, hit upon a new idea (Genesis, followed by Sonic the Hedgehog) that propelled them to #1 for a few years, but in the end they were unable to sustain it.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Aug 31, 2013 13:28:43 GMT -5
Give bischoff complete control and lots of money? If only there was a way to see what it would look like. If only there was a promotion down in Georgia that applied this to their company. The only company in history to beat WWE in the ratings? The one where the WWE got so close to going out of business they couldn't keep water coolers in the office because they didn't have the money? The company that did that? Yeah, you're right. It'd be stupid. No, the only company in history to beat WWE in the ratings, yet squander that advantage, lose all profits inside one calendar year, and be sold to the same company that couldn't afford water coolers in the office a few years before for one one-hundredth of what it had been worth. That said, you don't judge a man on how well he ran a race for the first lap, but how he finished. History deals with winners and losers, and Bischoff created the destructive blueprint for WCW that ended up leading it to the path of ruin. A lot of other cooks pissed in the broth too, and Kellner took the pot right off the stove altogether, but the whole thing was going south long before the Time Warner merger. They went from profitable to horrendously unprofitable in such a short time. And many of Eric's ideas (guaranteed contracts for one, no long term vision for storylines another) were the catalyst. The evidence of him failing much supersedes his success.
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Post by Hit Girl on Aug 31, 2013 16:39:42 GMT -5
am I the only one who thought that break in between questions with the picture of him and his theme was freaking HILARIOUS? No, I thought it was funny too. I also like the way that Hogan reacted to the question of what should be done with TNA He looked up to the heavens, and appropriately too because really, short of divine intervention, TNA will forever be bush league.
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Post by rybackrulez on Aug 31, 2013 16:52:42 GMT -5
Give bischoff complete control and lots of money? If only there was a way to see what it would look like. If only there was a promotion down in Georgia that applied this to their company. WCW handed WWF it's ass in the nineties. When they fired bischoff and out in other bookers wcw died a painfully short death Bischoff can book a great show
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Post by Hit Girl on Aug 31, 2013 17:04:19 GMT -5
Give bischoff complete control and lots of money? If only there was a way to see what it would look like. If only there was a promotion down in Georgia that applied this to their company. WCW handed WWF it's ass in the nineties. When they fired bischoff and out in other bookers wcw died a painfully short death Bischoff can book a great show WCW handed WWF its ass due to ex-WWF stars. Given the loss of so many big names, it's understandable that the WWF struggled. However once they found their new direction and built replacement stars, WCW was crushed. The rot in WCW started during Bischoff's time. Bischoff could book a great show only with Ted Turner's chequebook. He ran the NWO into the ground and botched Goldberg's streak by having him put over that hot young up-and-coming star Kevin Nash. Bischoff's success in wrestling was down to fortunate circumstances. A perfect storm of having lots of money, and signing ready made stars. In TNA, none of these factors apply.
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Glitch
Grimlock
Not Going To Die; Childs, we're goin' out to give Blair the test. If he tries to make it back here and we're not with him... burn him.
Watching you.
Posts: 12,787
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Post by Glitch on Aug 31, 2013 18:03:28 GMT -5
Give bischoff complete control and lots of money? If only there was a way to see what it would look like. If only there was a promotion down in Georgia that applied this to their company. WCW handed WWF it's ass in the nineties. When they fired bischoff and out in other bookers wcw died a painfully short death Bischoff can book a great show No, I'm pretty sure bischoff was in charge during the disastrous ideas "On the Fly" booking, having master P and the Kiss Demon as part of the show(and when they were getting crushed in the ratings by Raw ). Bischoff wasn't relieved of his duties until September 10, 1999. Wcw was already dying way before then. Russo simply sped up wcw's death. Even during his time in tna we see that he's a one trick pony.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Aug 31, 2013 19:03:09 GMT -5
Give bischoff complete control and lots of money? If only there was a way to see what it would look like. If only there was a promotion down in Georgia that applied this to their company. WCW handed WWF it's ass in the nineties. When they fired bischoff and out in other bookers wcw died a painfully short death Bischoff can book a great show Bischoff could book a good show when he cared about the whole card, which wasn't that often, but that doesn't change the fact that he's been a disaster when given real power within a wrestling company. He signed people to big money contracts with creative control clauses, which left the people who followed him with an unbookable mess. How do you book a compelling show when all the established main event talent can turn around at any moment during a program and decide to get match outcomes changed to benefit them? Those that followed had to build a new main event scene from scratch, hence the sudden pushes for Benoit (until he quit), Jarrett, Steiner and Booker T, and the renewed pushes for good hands like Flair, Hart (until his injury) and DDP. Thanks to Bischoff and his love of splashing the cash, the company ended up loaded with people draining millions from it, who couldn't be booked in a way that would make money or be fired because of their contracts or for fear that they'd go to the WWF. His shortsighteness and ridiculously lavish spending in the good years ultimately led to the huge losses WCW suffered which made it easy for Kellner to justify pulling the plug.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2013 19:14:41 GMT -5
At this point, I'm not sure what this promotion could do to get out of this rut they're stuck in because they've shown time after time they'll never change their ways. When it looks like the train is finally getting on the right track, not only do they derail but they stay in the train as it's crashing through a bridge and then throw gasoline on it and light a match (if that analogy makes any sense ).
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Glitch
Grimlock
Not Going To Die; Childs, we're goin' out to give Blair the test. If he tries to make it back here and we're not with him... burn him.
Watching you.
Posts: 12,787
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Post by Glitch on Aug 31, 2013 20:21:47 GMT -5
The fact that bischoff needs a lot of money to make something work is yet another reason how he lacks talent. You'd think Mr. Genius could come up with something good on a shoe string budget.
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Post by ritt works hard fo da chickens on Aug 31, 2013 22:50:28 GMT -5
Hogan also thought it was a good idea to give Nick the keys to the car.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2013 0:23:52 GMT -5
WCW handed WWF it's ass in the nineties. When they fired bischoff and out in other bookers wcw died a painfully short death Bischoff can book a great show WCW handed WWF its ass due to ex-WWF stars. Given the loss of so many big names, it's understandable that the WWF struggled. However once they found their new direction and built replacement stars, WCW was crushed. The rot in WCW started during Bischoff's time. Bischoff could book a great show only with Ted Turner's chequebook. He ran the NWO into the ground and botched Goldberg's streak by having him put over that hot young up-and-coming star Kevin Nash. Bischoff's success in wrestling was down to fortunate circumstances. A perfect storm of having lots of money, and signing ready made stars. In TNA, none of these factors apply. There is so much revisionism in the above paragraph. Bischoff took over a struggling company. Worse than TNA currently. Within a couple of years he built that organization to be the #1 wrestling promotion in the world. That was not entirely due to Turner's back account or taking big named stars, otherwise TNA's business would have skyrocketed after they got Hogan, Hardy, RVD, Flair, etc. WCW did not hand WWF its ass due to ex-WWF stars. That is completely ignoring the type of programming Bischoff was putting over there. First off, he was the one who spotlighted the Cruiserweight division that saw talent from all over the world given prime time exposure (including guys WWF eventually "stole" later on). In fact, that was such a great concept, that Vince McMahon signed TAKA and tried to duplicate it. Secondly, WCW was the first of the two companies to take a more realistic/adult approach. The nWo angle was revolutionary. Yes, it would not have worked if it wasn't for Hogan turning, but all the right pieces were there and it worked. Thirdly, look at the stock of the WWF performers at the time WCW signed them. Bischoff "bought low" on practically every single WWF star out there. Savage was a freakin' announcer for two years before WCW. Lex Luger was a jobber before WCW signed him in 1995. The 1-2-3 Kid was coming off a Cry Baby Match before joining in 1996. Hall and Nash became bigger stars in WCW than they ever were in the WWF. List goes on and on. Bischoff took big names who were damaged goods thanks to the WWF's booking at the time and made them bigger deals. Why do you think Syxx showing up in the WWF in 1998 was a big deal, while 1-2-3 Kid showing up on Nitro in 1996 wasn't? Why did Chris Jericho get a huge pop in his WWF debut? The Radicals? This idea that Bischoff lived off the 80's WWF to build WCW is such a fallacy that it boggles my mind how that idea is still out there. Bischoff is a smart guy. Sure, he wasn't very good with money, but neither was Paul Heyman, and everyone seems to think Heyman's a genius. I'm not saying Bischoff would be a great booker now (it's been a while since the 90's), but downplaying his success is unfair. He did what no one else ever did, and no one else will ever do again.
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Post by Hit Girl on Sept 1, 2013 1:09:11 GMT -5
By the time Hogan and Flair got to TNA they were sad pathetic broken down wrecks. Jeff and RVD in TNA were never on the level of fame as Hogan or Savage or Flair when they were in WCW in the mid 90's, or Nash and Hall in 1996. WCW also had a much higher profile than TNA, which is nothing by comparison.
The cruiserweights were a good idea, but mainly mid-card filler. The success WCW had was built around the NWO, the core of which was ex-WWF guys
True, and I give credit for the NWO to Bischoff. But that was a long time ago, and in no equates to him having such revolutionary ideas now. Heyman gets praise because he did the best he could on a limited budget and for better or worse, gave wrestling fans something they had never seen before, which was adapted by the WWF who were able to develop and package those kinds of ideas in a more marketable way, which ultimate they used to obliterate WCW. Bischoff wasted an astronomical budget by comparison and tons of talent.
Their stock in the short term before they signed for WCW isn't the issue. Their names are, and although some of them, like Savage had a reduced role in the WWF before he left, he, Hall and Nash had already built their names as stars in the WWF and that's why Bischoff signed them. Waltman was cheered because it was a surprise. Back then surprise jumps usually got cheers, no matter who they were. As for Jericho, he got a pop because the WWF fans realised he was a star, one neglected by Bischoff and who had to feel the glass ceiling that the established guys (Bischoff's ex-WWF crew) wouldn't let him break.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2013 3:01:46 GMT -5
Comparing Heyman to Bischoff is ridiculous because Heyman has had followup success. Bischoff ONLY has WCW to his credit. Heyman has ECW, his OVW run and his awesome smackdown run to his credit as a creative mind.
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BigBadZ
Grimlock
The Rumors Are All True
Posts: 13,923
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Post by BigBadZ on Sept 1, 2013 3:50:58 GMT -5
Has anything Hogan's done outside of Wrestling ever been successful? Now I know Vince hasn't been tremendously successful outside of wrestling either but he's had a success or two. Hogan, it just seems like everything turns to whatever the opposite of gold is. Thunder in Paradise lasted only like one or two seasons, if that. The Boot band CD was wrestlecrap induction worthy as were all his movies aside from perhaps NHB (I thought it was awful but perhaps the wrestling aspect interested some). The burger company never made waves, if it is even still in business. The micro reality show I don't think went past the first season. The pasta shop closed down. And I'm darn sure that the George Foreman grill which is still a huge seller nearly 20 years later would not have lasted one summer season if it had Hulk's image. Obviously we have him to partially credit, along with Vince's ingenuity, for the 1980s wrestling boom but the majority of his dealings have been terribly unsuccessful. We don't have concrete evidence to prove if those ventures were failures or not. I mean, how can people click the 'Like' button if YouTube hadn't been created yet??
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BigBadZ
Grimlock
The Rumors Are All True
Posts: 13,923
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Post by BigBadZ on Sept 1, 2013 4:02:38 GMT -5
Hogan just did a new interview and here's one of his quotes: Sorry to double post, but holy crap at 22m 37s Hogan talking about a fan who took a picture of Brooke's legs and Hogan posted it on Twitter. That's incredibly creepy but I can't help to wonder if the fan who took the picture was this fellow.
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Post by El Cokehead del Knife Fight on Sept 1, 2013 5:52:52 GMT -5
Hogan just did a new interview and here's one of his quotes: If they're so popular in Australia, why haven't they even attempted a tour of Australia? Honestly, people need context in Impact doing good numbers in Australia. That was years ago when TNA had a 7:30pm timeslot on Saturdays while Raw & Smackdown aired at 3:30pm on Wednesdays and Fridays respectively.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Sept 1, 2013 6:03:47 GMT -5
Comparing Heyman to Bischoff is ridiculous because Heyman has had followup success. Bischoff ONLY has WCW to his credit. Heyman has ECW, his OVW run and his awesome smackdown run to his credit as a creative mind. Heyman is a great booker, Bischoff is a great producer, but no matter how they or their supporters try and shift the blame onto others, they were both ultimately responsible for the downfall of their respective companies. When all is said and done, I wouldn't want either man in charge of the day to day operations of a wrestling company.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2013 9:17:45 GMT -5
This sounds like the underpants Gnomes theory of wrestling. 1. Give Bischoff money and power. 2. ?? 3. TNA beats WWE. Let's not try anything new or logical guys.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2013 12:13:15 GMT -5
By the time Hogan and Flair got to TNA they were sad pathetic broken down wrecks. Jeff and RVD in TNA were never on the level of fame as Hogan or Savage or Flair when they were in WCW in the mid 90's, or Nash and Hall in 1996. WCW also had a much higher profile than TNA, which is nothing by comparison. Jeff Hardy was arguably the most over guy in the WWE in 2009. TNA picking him up was a major deal. Not on the level of Hogan or Savage, sure, but he was a huge get for them. My point was picking up big names alone wasn't the reason WCW succeeded, as evidenced by 1995 which was littered with cartoony storylines involving Hogan. WCW picked up when their storylines, direction, etc, changed. Yes, the Cruiserweights were more low/mid-card acts, but my point was it was different than anything mainstream wrestling was doing at the time. Vince McMahon certainly wasn't signing smaller wrestlers or bringing in International talent back then. I mean, HHH is getting praised today for bringing in top Indy talent and International talent to the WWE, but what he is doing today mirrors what Bischoff did in 1995-96, except I'd argue Bischoff was doing a better job of featuring his talent than the WWE is today since the wrestling landscape has changed (i.e. the internet has made it easier to exploit a wrestler's past, while in 1996 it wasn't as easy). As far as the core being ex-WWF guys, the whole point of the nWo, at least before WWF's legal team came in, was that they were invading from the WWF. It was the storyline itself. That's why the angle worked so well, combined with the Hogan turn and subsequent Hogan/Sting storyline. It was far from using WWF's fame to push guys, because once the invading part was deemphasized, nothing about the popularity of the angle changed. Garbage wrestling, excessive cursing, exploiting women, destroying kayfabe, etc. That was Heyman's genius in ECW. Bischoff was on a Turner station where they couldn't say "ass" without having it censored. Heyman saw where society was going and exploited that, which he deserves credit for, but it wasn't exactly a complicated or intelligent way of booking. I'm not saying all of his ECW storylines were like that, but that is how ECW is remembered for the most part. The 1-2-3 Kid showed up on Nitro in the crowd. No fanfare, no hoopla, nothing. Two years later, he showed up on Raw, and the place exploded. WCW raised his stock when it was nothing two years earlier. Jericho got a huge reaction because he spent three years being featured in WCW. You think he gets that type of reaction if he was a jobber in WCW? Savage was an announcer who hadn't had a relevant feud since 1992 (he debuted in late-94). Hall and Nash were WWF stars, but WCW made them bigger stars. Hogan was floundering in the babyface role, and "Hollywood Hogan" added a decade to his career. So saying Bischoff took WWF stars is misleading, because he either repackaged them or made them more relevant than they were when he brought them in. When a WCW star went to the WWF, they usually got big fanfare. Jericho, the Radicals, the Giant, etc. WCW made stars. Just because they were not main eventing every week doesn't mean Bischoff didn't put them in positions to be relevant in the company. The WWF would have never pushed Jericho, Benoit, Guerrero, etc, in 1995-96. Again, I'm not arguing Bischoff would be the best guy for the job now, but his past is far from the failure that people seem to paint it as. And why is giving him money a bad thing? As I said, he was signing Indy talent, International talent, etc, in 1995, and that required money. The same type of money that HHH uses to do the exact same thing today. You think top indy stars are going to sign with TNA for pennies when the WWE could offer them more? It's the same exact concept. Why is HHH being praised for scouting the Indy talent and bringing in fresh faces today with an unlimited budget, yet no one can praise Bischoff for doing it 15 years ago?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2013 12:53:18 GMT -5
Bischoff is like Barry Switzer coaching the Dallas Cowboys, sure he was awesome 10-15 years prior when he had an unlimited budget and the ability to get the top guys and he proved that he could win with someone else's top guys but when those guys start getting old and not producing it all goes to hell.
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