Sephiroth
Wade Wilson
Surviving
Posts: 29,333
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Post by Sephiroth on Sept 1, 2013 13:31:41 GMT -5
I think the reason Heyman gets a better rap than Bischoff really comes down to personality. To be fair I have always regarded Heyman as a bit of a sleaze, but he doesn't come across as having the kind of arrogance Bischoff frequently does. Case in point, Heyman has never really tried to blame anyone else for the collapse of ECW-he does point to a lot of outside factors, but he admits his own mistakes that bankrupted the company. Bischoff, by contrast, has never really taken full responsibility for his role in the fall of WCW. He has admitted a few mistakes, but for tge most part it vid always someone else's fault, he was just a victim of other people's bad decisions. I might add thst Hryman often seems to show grater reverence for fans and what they want to see, while Bischoff has often seemed to believe fans want to see what he tells them they want to see. So in that light Heyman comes across as a but easier to side with.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Sept 1, 2013 14:18:26 GMT -5
I think the reason Heyman gets a better rap than Bischoff really comes down to personality. To be fair I have always regarded Heyman as a bit of a sleaze, but he doesn't come across as having the kind of arrogance Bischoff frequently does. Case in point, Heyman has never really tried to blame anyone else for the collapse of ECW-he does point to a lot of outside factors, but he admits his own mistakes that bankrupted the company. Bischoff, by contrast, has never really taken full responsibility for his role in the fall of WCW. He has admitted a few mistakes, but for tge most part it vid always someone else's fault, he was just a victim of other people's bad decisions. I might add thst Hryman often seems to show grater reverence for fans and what they want to see, while Bischoff has often seemed to believe fans want to see what he tells them they want to see. So in that light Heyman comes across as a but easier to side with. Heyman and ECW have also been huge beneficiaries of WWE revisionist history where they're painted as plucky underdogs while Bischoff is the devil who built his success on the backs of the WWF and ECW's hard work and wasting vast amounts of Ted Turner's money... While there is some truth to it, there was more to WCW's success than that. |
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Post by Hit Girl on Sept 1, 2013 14:40:24 GMT -5
{Spoiler}Spoiler
A top guy in WWE going to TNA isn't going to accomplish much, because it's TNA.
Storylines and directions based on ex-WWE guys. Without the star names the WWF had built, would the NWO have worked? I doubt it. Like i said, the NWO was a good idea, and Bischoff should and is praised for it, but the core of it was based around guys who had made their names in the WWF.
To a certain extent he was. Bret and HBK were being pushed as the top guys. Even guys like Stone Cold, Mankind and even HHH at the time, weren't the giant musclehead wrestlers of days past.
Without their WWF fame, the "invasion" element would have been relatively meaningless. The fact these guys were recognisable ex-WWF stars was what made the NWO so interesting at the time.
Like I said, for better or worse. I share the opinion about ECW. I was never a fan and I hate hardcore wrestling, but he offered something different, and the WWF took that and ran with it. Bischoff on the other hand relied on one of his few good ideas, and just didn't know when to stop and progress to something else.
So did Hall and Nash. That's just how the NWO revealed its membership back then. The other way was for a guy to start wearing a NWO shirt.
As a jobber? No. He was "featured" in WCW mostly as a comedy act, who they wouldn't push any further, but he showed enough signs of being capable of more, and the WWF fans realised that.
He was still a huge name.
They did, but they did so by capitalising on their WWF names.
Only because he turned heel, which was only shocking because he had been the hero for so long....in the WWF
It isn't. None of the repackaging would have been possible without using their WWF star power. Hall and Nash made waves because they were perceived as invaders from the WWF. Hogan made waves because the American superhero image he had built in the WWF turned heel.
It isn't. WWE has had sustained success. Bischoff had about two years. WWE are indeed signing indie and international talent, but have built their success largely on home grown guys like Cena and the Rock, or previously on guys discarded by WCW like the Undertaker, HHH, Mankind and Stone Cold. While its certainly true that during the 1980's they signed guys like Savage and Hogan from other companies, they didn't depend on what they had done in those companies to make their names, like Bischoff did. Bischoff's biggest problem was short-termism, and he neglected the long-term future of WCW. |
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Sephiroth
Wade Wilson
Surviving
Posts: 29,333
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Post by Sephiroth on Sept 1, 2013 14:40:45 GMT -5
Bischoff has some strengths as a booker. Like Heyman he was willing to try some bold and innovative things to freshen up a stale product. His aggressiveness was actually an asset when he was building WCW up pre-NWO. But I would argue thst unlike Heyman, Bischoff honestly does not have a good eye for talent or any long term vision; Heyman started out in ECW with some big name old timers who helped draw small crowds, but he used those older stars to establish younger talent that could take things to a new level. Bischoff had the biggest names of the 80's and tried to keep them on top instead of building up new stars, and the result was WCW losing the best and brightest en-masse in only a couple of years and their ratings tanking as fans got bored with the same old same old. And Bischoff's aggressiveness became a major liability when the ratings began to turn and the pressure was on-instead of being level headed and trying to work with the advantages he still had he started going berserk and started booking irrationally and costing himself more than it made up.
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Post by Zaq "That Guy" Buzzkill on Sept 1, 2013 20:41:16 GMT -5
I keep misinterpreting this thread title and think that Hogan gave advice on how Benoit should improve.
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Glitch
Grimlock
Not Going To Die; Childs, we're goin' out to give Blair the test. If he tries to make it back here and we're not with him... burn him.
Watching you.
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Post by Glitch on Sept 1, 2013 22:12:23 GMT -5
I keep misinterpreting this thread title and think that Hogan gave advice on how Benoit should improve. Benoit could have learned a thing from Hogan. The Hulkster could have gone all OJ on his ex-wife, brother. But he didn't. |
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Post by Medicinal Thunder Liger on Sept 2, 2013 7:20:06 GMT -5
I keep misinterpreting this thread title and think that Hogan gave advice on how Benoit should improve. Benoit could have learned a thing from Hogan. The Hulkster could have gone all OJ on his ex-wife, brother. But he didn't. this is going to sound awful, but "BENOIT ISN'T READY YET, BROTHER/JACK/DUDE" |
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Post by jason1980s on Sept 3, 2013 8:12:32 GMT -5
I forgot to mention American Gladiators. That was a show that last nearly a decade from the late 80s to late 90s and yet it didn't last a season or two with the Hulkster as the host. Granted the time for a show like that may have past though I think a sport-like competition show still has a place on TV. Personally I think it was Hulk's presence that killed it.
As for the mention of WWE having long term success (a post by Hit Girl) and Bischoff having few years I think it would be interesting to have a show like Family Feud or maybe even Leno's Jay Walking where say 100 people are asked who Vince McMahon is and I think you'd get a majority of people knowing who he is as opposed to probably only 10 knowing who Bischoff is.
The guy acts like he is to wrestling and television production as J.K. Rowling is to books, Elvis is to music or Marlon Brando is to acting. His best years were probably late 1995 to 1998 which is about 15-25 % of his 20+ years in wrestling. That's test failure numbers in school. Vince has at least 90-95 or more percent (in wrestling, though not in football or body building to be fair to Bischoff). If he had more money or control of TNA it would just quicken the death.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2013 8:54:46 GMT -5
So what I'm getting out of this is that TNA needs to bring in Mike Adamle, Larry Csonka, and Rico Constantino.
That actually doesn't sound half bad.
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Sephiroth
Wade Wilson
Surviving
Posts: 29,333
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Post by Sephiroth on Sept 3, 2013 10:25:42 GMT -5
So what I'm getting out of this is that TNA needs to bring in Mike Adamle, Larry Csonka, and Rico Constantino. That actually doesn't sound half bad. What TNA needs to do is release Hogan and Bischoff in October and then hit the reset button and go back to what was working for them before these two came in. Push their home grown stars like Ares, AJ, Joe, Daniels, and Roode back to the forefront while using established stars like Team 3D, Sting, and Angle to help build interest and create new stars. Rebuild the Knockout division by bringing in some fresh talent from Shimmer, Mexico, or Japan and start booking them in actual matches. Do the same for the X Division, and switch the formula up a bit by possibly bringing in some more technical, mat based performers to work opposite the high flyers, and perhaps even have some gimmick matches like X division latter or hardcore matches to give some variety. Stop trying to do more than they are ready for and go back to a formula of slow but progressive diversification and growth; look for new revenue sources like different types of merchandising, seek out cross-promotion press and advertising, do small amounts of touring while still staying based out of the Impact Zone. All these things were working just fine and the company appeared to be going places before Hogan and Bischoff came in and turned it into WCW lite. |
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Post by Ape Boy on Sept 4, 2013 17:18:49 GMT -5
This sounds like the underpants Gnomes theory of wrestling. 1. Give Bischoff money and power. 2.  ?? 3. TNA beats WWE. Let's not try anything new or logical guys. 2. Bischoff introduces new and exciting concepts to mainstream U.S. wrestling, breaking the stagnation created by WWE. |
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Glitch
Grimlock
Not Going To Die; Childs, we're goin' out to give Blair the test. If he tries to make it back here and we're not with him... burn him.
Watching you.
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Post by Glitch on Sept 4, 2013 17:23:24 GMT -5
This sounds like the underpants Gnomes theory of wrestling. 1. Give Bischoff money and power. 2. ?? 3. TNA beats WWE. Let's not try anything new or logical guys. 2. Bischoff introduces new and exciting concepts to mainstream U.S. wrestling, breaking the stagnation created by WWE. Bischoff has a time machine to 96? |
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Post by Ape Boy on Sept 4, 2013 17:26:33 GMT -5
2. Bischoff introduces new and exciting concepts to mainstream U.S. wrestling, breaking the stagnation created by WWE. Bischoff has a time machine to 96? He did it once. I'm not so sure he couldn't do it again. |
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Post by Jedi-El of Tomorrow on Sept 4, 2013 18:26:59 GMT -5
Bischoff has a time machine to 96? He did it once. I'm not so sure he couldn't do it again. But he hasn't done it again. Moving to Mondays was because of Hogan and Bischoff, and we know how that turned out. They dropped the six sided ring, had Immortal, Roode's feel good win was taken away because Hogan felt Storm was more ready, Brooke and Baby Bisch were brought in and did nothing for the company, Aces & Eights was no doubt a Bischoff idea and they haven't done anything for TNA. Hogan and Bischoff have had power, and Bischoff hasn't even come close to replicating the success of WCW. That was over 15 years ago, and Bischoff hasn't been able to do it again. |
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Post by rybackrulez on Sept 4, 2013 18:43:19 GMT -5
Tna should get kevin sullivan tO book
Dumgeond of Doom
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2013 21:34:44 GMT -5
This sounds like the underpants Gnomes theory of wrestling. 1. Give Bischoff money and power. 2. ?? 3. TNA beats WWE. Let's not try anything new or logical guys. 2. Bischoff introduces new and exciting concepts to mainstream U.S. wrestling, breaking the stagnation created by WWE. That is not an actual step, that's just wishful thinking - an extension of #3 at best. Specifically, Hogan had no idea what Bischoff would do with that money/power to lead to #3. That'd be like 1. Give anyone money and power. 2. Revolutionizes wrestling and stuff. 3. Success. |
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